[Goku]

 Holmesc1, on 02 October 2023 - 05:53 PM, said:

The fact is morocco and countries like them have half a dozen high speed lines the uk has 1 sure points to a need for more, save journey times a little but more for extra capacity for freight and local services but surely the line will have to reach euston otherise folk will just continue to use the existing birmingham to london service as it takes them straight to euston. Bulk of uk rail still has victorian infastructure and folk dont want high speed lines. to all those pro labour supporters on here, alot of torys are also deeply against it been scrapped


I suppose it would have been built by now had labour been in power

Not got a favourite side but manages to shoehorn Labour into every other post

[Holmesc1]

 Goku, on 03 October 2023 - 11:50 AM, said:

Not got a favourite side but manages to shoehorn Labour into every other post

Was me been sarcastic, regardless of which governments in power major building projects in the uk seem dogged by overspending amongst other issues

[turrhall]

Incredible really that in about the time that we've fannyed around not building anything, and ultimately decided that 140 miles of high-speed rail is enough, China has built 25,000 miles of it.

[s42blue]

 turrhall, on 03 October 2023 - 01:46 PM, said:

Incredible really that in about the time that we've fannyed around not building anything, and ultimately decided that 140 miles of high-speed rail is enough, China has built 25,000 miles of it.

25,000 miles built with fantastic wages, total respect and sympathy for the environment and lives of inhabitants, certainly and definitely no health and safety issues and it says in their press release built on time and to budget…

Despicable regime.

[azul]

 Mr Mercury, on 02 October 2023 - 08:33 PM, said:

Well the scrapping of the Newton spur on the Birmingham-Leeds Northern Route cost me £15k.

Oh well the money saved on you will go to the top 5% in pre election tax cuts so you can’t complain really

[Mr Mercury]

 azul, on 03 October 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

Oh well the money saved on you will go to the top 5% in pre election tax cuts so you can’t complain really

Not fussed tbh the upheaval around here would have been immense.

[azul]

 s42blue, on 03 October 2023 - 02:32 PM, said:

25,000 miles built with fantastic wages, total respect and sympathy for the environment and lives of inhabitants, certainly and definitely no health and safety issues and it says in their press release built on time and to budget…

Despicable regime.

That’s what Sunak, Braverman, Patel, Badenoch, Truss, Courtinho (how may others have I forgotten for food sake?) wants us to aspire to

[turrhall]

 s42blue, on 03 October 2023 - 02:32 PM, said:

25,000 miles built with fantastic wages, total respect and sympathy for the environment and lives of inhabitants, certainly and definitely no health and safety issues and it says in their press release built on time and to budget…

Despicable regime.

China is not without issues, sure, but do you think maybe there's a sweet spot between building 25k miles of track and building ****-all track that meets your requirements?

This post has been edited by turrhall: 03 October 2023 - 03:26 PM

[s42blue]

 turrhall, on 03 October 2023 - 03:21 PM, said:

China is not without issues, sure, but do you think maybe there's a sweet spot between building 25k miles of track and building ****-all track that meets your requirements? Requirements I'm sure you wouldn't be as bothered about if it wasn't being done by people who were Chinese and/or via a centralised economy.

Firstly I don’t think HS2 is required at all on our small island compared to the vast area of China. It is/was an infrastructure project to kickstart a flagging economy.

It has NOTHING to do with them being Chinese and I find that offensive tbh. It has everything to do with the points I raised (sarcastically) in my previous post. If only it was a centralised economy instead of a quasi Secret State run by a dictator and “invested” underlings. As I say a despicable, disgusting regime which surely no one can be envious of.

[Misnomer]

 s42blue, on 03 October 2023 - 03:30 PM, said:

Firstly I don’t think HS2 is required at all on our small island compared to the vast area of China. It is/was an infrastructure project to kickstart a flagging economy.

It has NOTHING to do with them being Chinese and I find that offensive tbh. It has everything to do with the points I raised (sarcastically) in my previous post. If only it was a centralised economy instead of a quasi Secret State run by a dictator and “invested” underlings. As I say a despicable, disgusting regime which surely no one can be envious of.

Totally agree, every point.

[turrhall]

 s42blue, on 03 October 2023 - 03:30 PM, said:

Firstly I don’t think HS2 is required at all on our small island compared to the vast area of China. It is/was an infrastructure project to kickstart a flagging economy.

It has NOTHING to do with them being Chinese and I find that offensive tbh. It has everything to do with the points I raised (sarcastically) in my previous post. If only it was a centralised economy instead of a quasi Secret State run by a dictator and “invested” underlings. As I say a despicable, disgusting regime which surely no one can be envious of.

Sorry, I went in too hard on the second part, removed but obviously you read it first l, apologies.

We have a similar size island to Japan and it famously works excellently there.

[s42blue]

 turrhall, on 03 October 2023 - 08:03 PM, said:

Sorry, I went in too hard on the second part, removed but obviously you read it first l, apologies.

We have a similar size island to Japan and it famously works excellently there.

Fair play for that.

True it does work well in Japan…if well means punctual. They are still overcrowded and incredibly expensive to use…bullet trains costing much more than a flight to same destination.

They too are privately owned: doesn’t that go against your more Left Wing idealism? (Genuine Q not a dig).

Japan improved their railways as part of massive infrastructure spend (sounds familiar) after their “Lost Decade” ( which turns in to decades) to kickstart their internal economy. Hasn’t worked. Just like HS2.

Japan has similar problems to the U.K. with an ageing population. But I’d rather be Japanese or British (even under this farce of a government) than Chinese and live under state control.

[turrhall]

 s42blue, on 03 October 2023 - 09:59 PM, said:

Fair play for that.

True it does work well in Japan…if well means punctual. They are still overcrowded and incredibly expensive to use…bullet trains costing much more than a flight to same destination.

They too are privately owned: doesn’t that go against your more Left Wing idealism? (Genuine Q not a dig).

Japan improved their railways as part of massive infrastructure spend (sounds familiar) after their “Lost Decade” ( which turns in to decades) to kickstart their internal economy. Hasn’t worked. Just like HS2.

Japan has similar problems to the U.K. with an ageing population. But I’d rather be Japanese or British (even under this farce of a government) than Chinese and live under state control.

My argument is just that the British isles is large enough to warrant high-speed rail, which Japan proves regardless of ownership. I'm not in favour of HS rail here to kickstart the economy but to provide the average person with access to better intercity travel - you'll maybe argue that this can be done with improving the current network, and fine, I'd be in favour of that too, I'm not completely wedded to HS per se but it seems backwards to me to not invest in the type of rail system that is clearly the future otherwise by the time it's renewed it will already be out of date.

Either way, personally, I would like the entire train system (like all public infrastructure) to be under public ownership but that's just me.

You may prefer not want to live under 'state control' (you do anyway btw, that's the nature of living within a society) but, and I'm absolutely not an expert on China or the Chinese, they do. There's a high satisfaction rate there for how their economy is managed - it has lifted 100s of millions out of poverty in the last century so why wouldn't they be?
Makes me think of the Mark Fisher quote on 'capitalist realism' being "the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it." An alternative exists in China. Maybe they like it because they have to? Maybe you like our system because you have to? Who's to say?

[s42blue]

 turrhall, on 03 October 2023 - 11:04 PM, said:

My argument is just that the British isles is large enough to warrant high-speed rail, which Japan proves regardless of ownership. I'm not in favour of HS rail here to kickstart the economy but to provide the average person with access to better intercity travel - you'll maybe argue that this can be done with improving the current network, and fine, I'd be in favour of that too, I'm not completely wedded to HS per se but it seems backwards to me to not invest in the type of rail system that is clearly the future otherwise by the time it's renewed it will already be out of date.

Either way, personally, I would like the entire train system (like all public infrastructure) to be under public ownership but that's just me.

You may prefer not want to live under 'state control' (you do anyway btw, that's the nature of living within a society) but, and I'm absolutely not an expert on China or the Chinese, they do. There's a high satisfaction rate there for how their economy is managed - it has lifted 100s of millions out of poverty in the last century so why wouldn't they be?
Makes me think of the Mark Fisher quote on 'capitalist realism' being "the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it." An alternative exists in China. Maybe they like it because they have to? Maybe you like our system because you have to? Who's to say?

I’m actually not in favour of high speed rail. For the sake of a small amount of time in excess I’d rather have a rail service with capacity for people (and most definitely freight), that runs on time and is fair value. £285 for my return to London a week ago!?! So yes for me improve the current network. But HS2 was a marque statement…world leading blah blah , make Britain great again nonsense.

I think improving the network for the average person (your words) would be making the trains run on time to get to Manchester not to take 15 mins off getting to London for an occasional trip. And get the freight off the roads to free up our clogged motorways. Improving the network will cause disruption true but so has hs2.

As for being backwards I think more spend on fast and reliable internet is more futuristic so there’s more virtual meetings than folk jumping on a train for a few hours of meetings.

Though we’re probably very different in politics (but at least debating constructively 😂) I’d have nationalised utilities and transportation. Heavily performance related pay.

Yes I live under state control. We all do. But not one where I’m told how kids I can have, or I can’t protest. Do I like our system? Yes relative to there’s.

China is a massive propaganda machine. Economic and social data is pretty much ignored by investors as it’s inflated, dishonest and corrupt.

Millions have been brought out of poverty…but now live away from their families doing unskilled jobs. Their homelands still in desperate poverty. The disparity in wealth is huge too. From abject poverty to super wealthy.

Their treatment of group like (and not just) Uyghurs is akin to genocide with their reeducation camps and labour reforms. A Chinese scholar recently being sentenced to life for….researching them.

Disgusting regime and one I try my very hardest to avoid supporting commercially.

[Goku]

 s42blue, on 04 October 2023 - 09:43 AM, said:

But not one where I’m told how kids I can have, or I can’t protest.

Well…

[s42blue]

 Goku, on 04 October 2023 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well…

Someone told you how many kids you can have….😉

Whilst I’m not getting in to the arguments right or wrong about the Coulson et Al statues….do you think that would have been allowed in China? We may have a subdued level of protest (which I think is wrong) but it’s way in advance of China.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Sunak toured studios yesterday and in between trying to talk down interviewers insisted no decision had been made on HS2.

But today he announces the worst kept secret in town - it's scrapped.

So did only make such a humungous decision overnight or simply lie yesterday....?

[Goku]

 The Earl of Chesterfield, on 04 October 2023 - 11:32 AM, said:

Sunak toured studios yesterday and in between trying to talk down interviewers insisted no decision had been made on HS2.

But today he announces the worst kept secret in town - it's scrapped.

So did only make such a humungous decision overnight or simply lie yesterday....?

Sunak begging Andy Street not to resign in not so many words. Pathetic. What an embarrassing smarmy manlet he is.

[dart in the crossbar]

 The Earl of Chesterfield, on 04 October 2023 - 11:32 AM, said:

Sunak toured studios yesterday and in between trying to talk down interviewers insisted no decision had been made on HS2.

But today he announces the worst kept secret in town - it's scrapped.

So did only make such a humungous decision overnight or simply lie yesterday....?

Maybe it was a whatsapp message which he may or may not confirm whether he does or doesn't have access to

[SocraticCFC]

 Holmesc1, on 03 October 2023 - 11:48 AM, said:

More railways been built since br was abolished so not really a comparison there

Quote sources and evidence on that one please.