[Jackolt]

I read Cartman's stuff with interest regarding "simple truths". For me, he certainly has a point in what he says. Somebody else mentioned 'amateur psychology'. I thought it might help to put in my two penn'orth as a qualified psychotherapist, humanistic psychologist and God help me, a Town Fan since 1964.

First a little on what, at the time, felt like one of the worst weeks of my life (and you may not share my politics but...)I saw us lose 0-1 at home to Preston, I then tuned in to the election exit poll on the way home to West Yorkshire and knew instantly I'd be having to deal in my working life yet again, with the effects of the same old crap, social exclusion and despair, that I chose-had to deal with working with clients as a newly qualified social worker in 1979 (the effect on social policy and the socially excluded of 18 years of Blue Meanies government). Then I saw us lose at Preston and I also saw Paul Cook looking too chipper for my liking; then he went to Portsmouth next day; then I hear about him wanting all our best players. In my lifetime as a Spireite, I've seen us get close to 'Division Two - Championship' under Arthur Cox and then Paul Cook. I chose to think we could do it this time - probably a form of denial based on not wanting to accept all the signs that Cookie was already 'on the bus' to Portsmouth and that all the players knew it way before the Preston games - which would inevitably affect their performance in my view. Yes, we were perhaps fortunate to get to the playoffs but as someone else said, we were probably holed below the waterline before a ball was kicked against Preston.

The result of all the above on me? Despair, and quite definitely (I've seen it too many times in my career to deny it)a very powerful grief process. I also know I have to go to the depths of that process before I can begin to face the future again. In my line of work it's called "despair and empowerment", but it cannot fully work unless we fully feel all the stuff that takes us down... rage, hopelessness, depression, cynicism.. to name but a few emotional responses (and plenty of which I've seen on this Board lately). THEN, usually, if managed the right way, anger and even defiance can turn to assertiveness to fire us up to carry on with what we really believe in.

In my case this is what I felt and this is what I believe: I told myself, that having come through cancer, heart failure and open heart surgery in the last 5 years, I'm not going to let the politics of self interest and exclusion, nor the cruel vagaries of Football stop me being a professional working with a lifelong belief in the common good and caring for others (no talk of this ludicrous concept of "aspiration" from me unless its aspiration for all). And this recent pain of loss in Football will not EVER stop me being a Spireite, who still sees us with a future and still refuses to abandon the dream that we will continue to improve. Dreaming I would live on, not die, has certainly kept me alive, as I have also witnessed in working with others with life threatening illnesses. Plenty of Spireites also kept dreaming and working hard to save this club from self serving people like Darren Brown. Not least men with real courage like Jim Brown, who literally kept this Football Club alive.

Chesterfield FC belongs to all of us - it's in our blood. If you want it to continue and thrive, then whoever is CEO, whoever is Chairman, whoever is the Manager, whatever decisions they make you will need the following: a commitment to keep supporting the Town and its players no matter what / assertiveness and defiance / a sense of humour / a willingness to accept in life that the best feelings we can have will always inevitably live side by side with some of the worst.

But most of all you will need resilience and a real faith in what you believe in and a willingness to never give up on what you dream for. As Goethe said, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". As Langston Hughes said, "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly".

Hope that helps!!

[Bonnyman]

Very good enjoyed reading that.

[Yenx]

Same here, and there's a lot of sense in what you say.
But you can't deny that this forum is a part of the "despair and empowerment" process and is open to all.

For the same reason radio phone-ins get far less callers when all is well, the majority of the posts on here are negative in nature.
We all share our despair, we wind each other up. Myself, personally I try to have a laugh with it because I find it's the best medicine

[Rudeboy spireite]

Exactly right, great post

[Wooden Spoon]

Expect very little, err on the side of caution, and don't get carried away. Then when things do go well you enjoy them, and when things don't go well you expect them without so much disappointment.

[h again]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I read Cartman's stuff with interest regarding "simple truths". For me, he certainly has a point in what he says. Somebody else mentioned 'amateur psychology'. I thought it might help to put in my two penn'orth as a qualified psychotherapist, humanistic psychologist and God help me, a Town Fan since 1964.

First a little on what, at the time, felt like one of the worst weeks of my life (and you may not share my politics but...)I saw us lose 0-1 at home to Preston, I then tuned in to the election exit poll on the way home to West Yorkshire and knew instantly I'd be having to deal in my working life yet again, with the effects of the same old crap, social exclusion and despair, that I chose-had to deal with working with clients as a newly qualified social worker in 1979 (the effect on social policy and the socially excluded of 18 years of Blue Meanies government). Then I saw us lose at Preston and I also saw Paul Cook looking too chipper for my liking; then he went to Portsmouth next day; then I hear about him wanting all our best players. In my lifetime as a Spireite, I've seen us get close to 'Division Two - Championship' under Arthur Cox and then Paul Cook. I chose to think we could do it this time - probably a form of denial based on not wanting to accept all the signs that Cookie was already 'on the bus' to Portsmouth and that all the players knew it way before the Preston games - which would inevitably affect their performance in my view. Yes, we were perhaps fortunate to get to the playoffs but as someone else said, we were probably holed below the waterline before a ball was kicked against Preston.

The result of all the above on me? Despair, and quite definitely (I've seen it too many times in my career to deny it)a very powerful grief process. I also know I have to go to the depths of that process before I can begin to face the future again. In my line of work it's called "despair and empowerment", but it cannot fully work unless we fully feel all the stuff that takes us down... rage, hopelessness, depression, cynicism.. to name but a few emotional responses (and plenty of which I've seen on this Board lately). THEN, usually, if managed the right way, anger and even defiance can turn to assertiveness to fire us up to carry on with what we really believe in.

In my case this is what I felt and this is what I believe: I told myself, that having come through cancer, heart failure and open heart surgery in the last 5 years, I'm not going to let the politics of self interest and exclusion, nor the cruel vagaries of Football stop me being a professional working with a lifelong belief in the common good and caring for others (no talk of this ludicrous concept of "aspiration" from me unless its aspiration for all). And this recent pain of loss in Football will not EVER stop me being a Spireite, who still sees us with a future and still refuses to abandon the dream that we will continue to improve. Dreaming I would live on, not die, has certainly kept me alive, as I have also witnessed in working with others with life threatening illnesses. Plenty of Spireites also kept dreaming and working hard to save this club from self serving people like Darren Brown. Not least men with real courage like Jim Brown, who literally kept this Football Club alive.

Chesterfield FC belongs to all of us - it's in our blood. If you want it to continue and thrive, then whoever is CEO, whoever is Chairman, whoever is the Manager, whatever decisions they make you will need the following: a commitment to keep supporting the Town and its players no matter what / assertiveness and defiance / a sense of humour / a willingness to accept in life that the best feelings we can have will always inevitably live side by side with some of the worst.

But most of all you will need resilience and a real faith in what you believe in and a willingness to never give up on what you dream for. As Goethe said, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". As Langston Hughes said, "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly".

Hope that helps!!

But you don't believe in 'the ludicrous concept of aspiration'? Bit of muddled thinking there for a psychologist.

I don't want to pick holes in what is obviously a professional opinion, but without your hated 'aspiration' we'd still be living in caves - and, even worse, Chesterfield wouldn't have a motto for its town logo.

[Cartman]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I read Cartman's stuff with interest regarding "simple truths". For me, he certainly has a point in what he says. Somebody else mentioned 'amateur psychology'. I thought it might help to put in my two penn'orth as a qualified psychotherapist, humanistic psychologist and God help me, a Town Fan since 1964.

First a little on what, at the time, felt like one of the worst weeks of my life (and you may not share my politics but...)I saw us lose 0-1 at home to Preston, I then tuned in to the election exit poll on the way home to West Yorkshire and knew instantly I'd be having to deal in my working life yet again, with the effects of the same old crap, social exclusion and despair, that I chose-had to deal with working with clients as a newly qualified social worker in 1979 (the effect on social policy and the socially excluded of 18 years of Blue Meanies government). Then I saw us lose at Preston and I also saw Paul Cook looking too chipper for my liking; then he went to Portsmouth next day; then I hear about him wanting all our best players. In my lifetime as a Spireite, I've seen us get close to 'Division Two - Championship' under Arthur Cox and then Paul Cook. I chose to think we could do it this time - probably a form of denial based on not wanting to accept all the signs that Cookie was already 'on the bus' to Portsmouth and that all the players knew it way before the Preston games - which would inevitably affect their performance in my view. Yes, we were perhaps fortunate to get to the playoffs but as someone else said, we were probably holed below the waterline before a ball was kicked against Preston.

The result of all the above on me? Despair, and quite definitely (I've seen it too many times in my career to deny it)a very powerful grief process. I also know I have to go to the depths of that process before I can begin to face the future again. In my line of work it's called "despair and empowerment", but it cannot fully work unless we fully feel all the stuff that takes us down... rage, hopelessness, depression, cynicism.. to name but a few emotional responses (and plenty of which I've seen on this Board lately). THEN, usually, if managed the right way, anger and even defiance can turn to assertiveness to fire us up to carry on with what we really believe in.

In my case this is what I felt and this is what I believe: I told myself, that having come through cancer, heart failure and open heart surgery in the last 5 years, I'm not going to let the politics of self interest and exclusion, nor the cruel vagaries of Football stop me being a professional working with a lifelong belief in the common good and caring for others (no talk of this ludicrous concept of "aspiration" from me unless its aspiration for all). And this recent pain of loss in Football will not EVER stop me being a Spireite, who still sees us with a future and still refuses to abandon the dream that we will continue to improve. Dreaming I would live on, not die, has certainly kept me alive, as I have also witnessed in working with others with life threatening illnesses. Plenty of Spireites also kept dreaming and working hard to save this club from self serving people like Darren Brown. Not least men with real courage like Jim Brown, who literally kept this Football Club alive.

Chesterfield FC belongs to all of us - it's in our blood. If you want it to continue and thrive, then whoever is CEO, whoever is Chairman, whoever is the Manager, whatever decisions they make you will need the following: a commitment to keep supporting the Town and its players no matter what / assertiveness and defiance / a sense of humour / a willingness to accept in life that the best feelings we can have will always inevitably live side by side with some of the worst.

But most of all you will need resilience and a real faith in what you believe in and a willingness to never give up on what you dream for. As Goethe said, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". As Langston Hughes said, "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly".

Hope that helps!!

interesting stuff, thanks for posting that

I suppose I just find it very hard to attribute feelings of despair to Town finishing in the best position for 30 years, having a great season etc etc and subsequantly having the manager poached by a bigger club

[Jackolt]

h again, on 20 May 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

But you don't believe in 'the ludicrous concept of aspiration'? Bit of muddled thinking there for a psychologist.

I don't want to pick holes in what is obviously a professional opinion, but without your hated 'aspiration' we'd still be living in caves - and, even worse, Chesterfield wouldn't have a motto for its town logo.

Nathen youth... I'm sure I could be accused of many things, but in all honesty I don't think "muddled thinking" would be one of them. Either you didn't get, or chose not to get, the meaning of what I said, or I didn't explain it clearly enough. Either way, I'm happy to expand on the subject.

I don't "hate" the concept of 'aspiration' (your inference, not mine), I'm merely critical of the way it is often used (and has been by a number of Conservative politicians) to suggest that people who aspire to 'better themselves' are somehow more deserving than the general populace. It seems to me that is often a rationalisation for elitism, and I do not buy in to the way a lot of candidates for the Labour leadership are also giving it dubious creedence. It's what I have come to expect from Conservatives, however I think it is a "ludicrous concept" when used in particular by Labour politicians in an uncritical way, to back their prospective candidacy for leadership. As I said, I would only support such a concept if it genuinely meant "aspiration for all" (I reckon that's the only safe way to ensure that we ALL get out of the caves). For me, aspiration used in the right way is a universal not individualistic concept. I have no enthusiasm for the way it is currently being used in political debate.

And lastly, of course our town logo is for me simply an example of Derbyshire humour.... The way I see it, it says 'A spire' because we have one.

[SALTERGATE]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I read Cartman's stuff with interest regarding "simple truths". For me, he certainly has a point in what he says. Somebody else mentioned 'amateur psychology'. I thought it might help to put in my two penn'orth as a qualified psychotherapist, humanistic psychologist and God help me, a Town Fan since 1964.

First a little on what, at the time, felt like one of the worst weeks of my life (and you may not share my politics but...)I saw us lose 0-1 at home to Preston, I then tuned in to the election exit poll on the way home to West Yorkshire and knew instantly I'd be having to deal in my working life yet again, with the effects of the same old crap, social exclusion and despair, that I chose-had to deal with working with clients as a newly qualified social worker in 1979 (the effect on social policy and the socially excluded of 18 years of Blue Meanies government). Then I saw us lose at Preston and I also saw Paul Cook looking too chipper for my liking; then he went to Portsmouth next day; then I hear about him wanting all our best players. In my lifetime as a Spireite, I've seen us get close to 'Division Two - Championship' under Arthur Cox and then Paul Cook. I chose to think we could do it this time - probably a form of denial based on not wanting to accept all the signs that Cookie was already 'on the bus' to Portsmouth and that all the players knew it way before the Preston games - which would inevitably affect their performance in my view. Yes, we were perhaps fortunate to get to the playoffs but as someone else said, we were probably holed below the waterline before a ball was kicked against Preston.

The result of all the above on me? Despair, and quite definitely (I've seen it too many times in my career to deny it)a very powerful grief process. I also know I have to go to the depths of that process before I can begin to face the future again. In my line of work it's called "despair and empowerment", but it cannot fully work unless we fully feel all the stuff that takes us down... rage, hopelessness, depression, cynicism.. to name but a few emotional responses (and plenty of which I've seen on this Board lately). THEN, usually, if managed the right way, anger and even defiance can turn to assertiveness to fire us up to carry on with what we really believe in.

In my case this is what I felt and this is what I believe: I told myself, that having come through cancer, heart failure and open heart surgery in the last 5 years, I'm not going to let the politics of self interest and exclusion, nor the cruel vagaries of Football stop me being a professional working with a lifelong belief in the common good and caring for others (no talk of this ludicrous concept of "aspiration" from me unless its aspiration for all). And this recent pain of loss in Football will not EVER stop me being a Spireite, who still sees us with a future and still refuses to abandon the dream that we will continue to improve. Dreaming I would live on, not die, has certainly kept me alive, as I have also witnessed in working with others with life threatening illnesses. Plenty of Spireites also kept dreaming and working hard to save this club from self serving people like Darren Brown. Not least men with real courage like Jim Brown, who literally kept this Football Club alive.

Chesterfield FC belongs to all of us - it's in our blood. If you want it to continue and thrive, then whoever is CEO, whoever is Chairman, whoever is the Manager, whatever decisions they make you will need the following: a commitment to keep supporting the Town and its players no matter what / assertiveness and defiance / a sense of humour / a willingness to accept in life that the best feelings we can have will always inevitably live side by side with some of the worst.

But most of all you will need resilience and a real faith in what you believe in and a willingness to never give up on what you dream for. As Goethe said, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". As Langston Hughes said, "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly".

Hope that helps!!

I think the most depressing part for me is that until the Scots become disillusioned with the SNP we are stuck with the tories....not sure how the country is going to get out from the current scenario !

[Siberian Spireite]

I think football fans (and too often, owners) just seem to lose sight of the fact that we need an opposition to play against, and that not everyone can finish top of the table or promoted every year.

[Kent]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I read Cartman's stuff with interest regarding "simple truths". For me, he certainly has a point in what he says. Somebody else mentioned 'amateur psychology'. I thought it might help to put in my two penn'orth as a qualified psychotherapist, humanistic psychologist and God help me, a Town Fan since 1964.

First a little on what, at the time, felt like one of the worst weeks of my life (and you may not share my politics but...)I saw us lose 0-1 at home to Preston, I then tuned in to the election exit poll on the way home to West Yorkshire and knew instantly I'd be having to deal in my working life yet again, with the effects of the same old crap, social exclusion and despair, that I chose-had to deal with working with clients as a newly qualified social worker in 1979 (the effect on social policy and the socially excluded of 18 years of Blue Meanies government). Then I saw us lose at Preston and I also saw Paul Cook looking too chipper for my liking; then he went to Portsmouth next day; then I hear about him wanting all our best players. In my lifetime as a Spireite, I've seen us get close to 'Division Two - Championship' under Arthur Cox and then Paul Cook. I chose to think we could do it this time - probably a form of denial based on not wanting to accept all the signs that Cookie was already 'on the bus' to Portsmouth and that all the players knew it way before the Preston games - which would inevitably affect their performance in my view. Yes, we were perhaps fortunate to get to the playoffs but as someone else said, we were probably holed below the waterline before a ball was kicked against Preston.

The result of all the above on me? Despair, and quite definitely (I've seen it too many times in my career to deny it)a very powerful grief process. I also know I have to go to the depths of that process before I can begin to face the future again. In my line of work it's called "despair and empowerment", but it cannot fully work unless we fully feel all the stuff that takes us down... rage, hopelessness, depression, cynicism.. to name but a few emotional responses (and plenty of which I've seen on this Board lately). THEN, usually, if managed the right way, anger and even defiance can turn to assertiveness to fire us up to carry on with what we really believe in.

In my case this is what I felt and this is what I believe: I told myself, that having come through cancer, heart failure and open heart surgery in the last 5 years, I'm not going to let the politics of self interest and exclusion, nor the cruel vagaries of Football stop me being a professional working with a lifelong belief in the common good and caring for others (no talk of this ludicrous concept of "aspiration" from me unless its aspiration for all). And this recent pain of loss in Football will not EVER stop me being a Spireite, who still sees us with a future and still refuses to abandon the dream that we will continue to improve. Dreaming I would live on, not die, has certainly kept me alive, as I have also witnessed in working with others with life threatening illnesses. Plenty of Spireites also kept dreaming and working hard to save this club from self serving people like Darren Brown. Not least men with real courage like Jim Brown, who literally kept this Football Club alive.

Chesterfield FC belongs to all of us - it's in our blood. If you want it to continue and thrive, then whoever is CEO, whoever is Chairman, whoever is the Manager, whatever decisions they make you will need the following: a commitment to keep supporting the Town and its players no matter what / assertiveness and defiance / a sense of humour / a willingness to accept in life that the best feelings we can have will always inevitably live side by side with some of the worst.

But most of all you will need resilience and a real faith in what you believe in and a willingness to never give up on what you dream for. As Goethe said, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". As Langston Hughes said, "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly".

Hope that helps!!

Like You, I Have been Waiting 50 Years, But Unlike Cox's era, We in a far better position to Forge ahead and , MAYBE, see our
Dreams, REALISED. I'm Fully behind DS and Feeling quietly Optimistic, Especially after the Recent Radio Sheffield Interview.

[semi130497]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I read Cartman's stuff with interest regarding "simple truths". For me, he certainly has a point in what he says. Somebody else mentioned 'amateur psychology'. I thought it might help to put in my two penn'orth as a qualified psychotherapist, humanistic psychologist and God help me, a Town Fan since 1964.

First a little on what, at the time, felt like one of the worst weeks of my life (and you may not share my politics but...)I saw us lose 0-1 at home to Preston, I then tuned in to the election exit poll on the way home to West Yorkshire and knew instantly I'd be having to deal in my working life yet again, with the effects of the same old crap, social exclusion and despair, that I chose-had to deal with working with clients as a newly qualified social worker in 1979 (the effect on social policy and the socially excluded of 18 years of Blue Meanies government). Then I saw us lose at Preston and I also saw Paul Cook looking too chipper for my liking; then he went to Portsmouth next day; then I hear about him wanting all our best players. In my lifetime as a Spireite, I've seen us get close to 'Division Two - Championship' under Arthur Cox and then Paul Cook. I chose to think we could do it this time - probably a form of denial based on not wanting to accept all the signs that Cookie was already 'on the bus' to Portsmouth and that all the players knew it way before the Preston games - which would inevitably affect their performance in my view. Yes, we were perhaps fortunate to get to the playoffs but as someone else said, we were probably holed below the waterline before a ball was kicked against Preston.

The result of all the above on me? Despair, and quite definitely (I've seen it too many times in my career to deny it)a very powerful grief process. I also know I have to go to the depths of that process before I can begin to face the future again. In my line of work it's called "despair and empowerment", but it cannot fully work unless we fully feel all the stuff that takes us down... rage, hopelessness, depression, cynicism.. to name but a few emotional responses (and plenty of which I've seen on this Board lately). THEN, usually, if managed the right way, anger and even defiance can turn to assertiveness to fire us up to carry on with what we really believe in.

In my case this is what I felt and this is what I believe: I told myself, that having come through cancer, heart failure and open heart surgery in the last 5 years, I'm not going to let the politics of self interest and exclusion, nor the cruel vagaries of Football stop me being a professional working with a lifelong belief in the common good and caring for others (no talk of this ludicrous concept of "aspiration" from me unless its aspiration for all). And this recent pain of loss in Football will not EVER stop me being a Spireite, who still sees us with a future and still refuses to abandon the dream that we will continue to improve. Dreaming I would live on, not die, has certainly kept me alive, as I have also witnessed in working with others with life threatening illnesses. Plenty of Spireites also kept dreaming and working hard to save this club from self serving people like Darren Brown. Not least men with real courage like Jim Brown, who literally kept this Football Club alive.

Chesterfield FC belongs to all of us - it's in our blood. If you want it to continue and thrive, then whoever is CEO, whoever is Chairman, whoever is the Manager, whatever decisions they make you will need the following: a commitment to keep supporting the Town and its players no matter what / assertiveness and defiance / a sense of humour / a willingness to accept in life that the best feelings we can have will always inevitably live side by side with some of the worst.

But most of all you will need resilience and a real faith in what you believe in and a willingness to never give up on what you dream for. As Goethe said, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". As Langston Hughes said, "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly".

Hope that helps!!

What do you do when your psychological resource limit is reached?

[Jackolt]

semi130497, on 20 May 2015 - 03:49 PM, said:

What do you do when your psychological resource limit is reached?

I'm not sure if this is a serious question. But if it is, in my personal and professional experience, it is very unlikely that a person would reach a permanent limit of psychological resources, if they are prepared to face the truth of any situation and not stay in denial. Psychotherapist Wilfred Bion, who himself experienced real horrors in the First World War (including seeing his best friend totally viscerated by a high explosive shell), suggested that we are either committed to the "truth" or to various forms of what he called (I wouldn't use the term myself) "the pleasure principle". He said no one could sustain mental health if they were committed to the 'pleasure principle' because it was simply a place of permanent denial. Instead what was needed was a commitment to sooner or later facing the truth of any situation (truth is what we make it sure, but I mean truth as we genuinely perceive it at an authentic level of self awareness. It is not some 'objective' state outside of the self as an immutable certainty). To do this, he suggested we need an awareness of the "finite" (immediate things happening to us) and also to the "infinite" (longer term realities). He suggested if the two are balanced, we obtain and can use what he called "binocular vision" (as in a pair of good binoculars with both sharp close up and sharp far distance lenses that offer a balanced view) in order to once again regain purpose and resilience and direction in life.

If it's not a serious question, all I can tell you is that a clear indication of probable madness is to stop watching the Spireites and instead get a season ticket for Mansfield, or in my opinion even more crazy, to get one instead for Rotherham United.

[Siberian Spireite]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

I'm not sure if this is a serious question. But if it is, in my personal and professional experience, it is very unlikely that a person would reach a permanent limit of psychological resources, if they are prepared to face the truth of any situation and not stay in denial. Psychotherapist Wilfred Bion, who himself experienced real horrors in the First World War (including seeing his best friend totally viscerated by a high explosive shell), suggested that we are either committed to the "truth" or to various forms of what he called (I wouldn't use the term myself) "the pleasure principle". He said no one could sustain mental health if they were committed to the 'pleasure principle' because it was simply a place of permanent denial. Instead what was needed was a commitment to sooner or later facing the truth of any situation (truth is what we make it sure, but I mean truth as we genuinely perceive it at an authentic level of self awareness. It is not some 'objective' state outside of the self as an immutable certainty). To do this, he suggested we need an awareness of the "finite" (immediate things happening to us) and also to the "infinite" (longer term realities). He suggested if the two are balanced, we obtain and can use what he called "binocular vision" (as in a pair of good binoculars with both sharp close up and sharp far distance lenses that offer a balanced view) in order to once again regain purpose and resilience and direction in life.

If it's not a serious question, all I can tell you is that a clear indication of probable madness is to stop watching the Spireites and instead get a season ticket for Mansfield, or in my opinion even more crazy, to get one instead for Rotherham United.

The question was a joke about the frequent 'Resource Limit Reached' problem on this board, I guess.

Surely 'binocular' is in the sense of 'adapted for using both eyes'? Anyhow, I'm not criticizing- it's genuinely interesting stuff, and true in my subjective reality.

[frearsghost]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

I'm not sure if this is a serious question. But if it is, in my personal and professional experience, it is very unlikely that a person would reach a permanent limit of psychological resources, if they are prepared to face the truth of any situation and not stay in denial. Psychotherapist Wilfred Bion, who himself experienced real horrors in the First World War (including seeing his best friend totally viscerated by a high explosive shell), suggested that we are either committed to the "truth" or to various forms of what he called (I wouldn't use the term myself) "the pleasure principle". He said no one could sustain mental health if they were committed to the 'pleasure principle' because it was simply a place of permanent denial. Instead what was needed was a commitment to sooner or later facing the truth of any situation (truth is what we make it sure, but I mean truth as we genuinely perceive it at an authentic level of self awareness. It is not some 'objective' state outside of the self as an immutable certainty). To do this, he suggested we need an awareness of the "finite" (immediate things happening to us) and also to the "infinite" (longer term realities). He suggested if the two are balanced, we obtain and can use what he called "binocular vision" (as in a pair of good binoculars with both sharp close up and sharp far distance lenses that offer a balanced view) in order to once again regain purpose and resilience and direction in life.

If it's not a serious question, all I can tell you is that a clear indication of probable madness is to stop watching the Spireites and instead get a season ticket for Mansfield, or in my opinion even more crazy, to get one instead for Rotherham United.

I would suggest Bion was pontificating on a full stomach.

The millions of people on the planet who won't eat today must be acutely aware of their hunger. To suggest they can regain a purpose and resilience in life if they could balance their misery with longer term realities i.e. more hunger, is a philosophy for those for whom denial is a luxury.

[semi130497]

Siberian Spireite, on 20 May 2015 - 04:31 PM, said:

The question was a joke about the frequent 'Resource Limit Reached' problem on this board, I guess.

Surely 'binocular' is in the sense of 'adapted for using both eyes'? Anyhow, I'm not criticizing- it's genuinely interesting stuff, and true in my subjective reality.

yes it was a poor attempt at a joke

[Jackolt]

frearsghost, on 20 May 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

I would suggest Bion was pontificating on a full stomach.

The millions of people on the planet who won't eat today must be acutely aware of their hunger. To suggest they can regain a purpose and resilience in life if they could balance their misery with longer term realities i.e. more hunger, is a philosophy for those for whom denial is a luxury.

Yes, I recognise on a global scale you have a point there. I regard the state of world politics and economics as largely corrupt and self serving and many people are damaged by the way the world is. However, to be fair to the guy I don't think he was claiming any kind of global truth or attempting to speak on behalf of millions on the planet. He was just reflecting on the people he worked with in his career and doing his best to help them help themselves.

I agree with him in the context of the vast majority of people I have worked with. Many people I see have come from marginalised groups in our society and many of those are in my view victims of economic and political discrimination. I never attempt to pathologize the anger they feel, because it is almost always a healthy and accurate reaction to their material circumstances. Often those circumstances don't change much, but I encourage them as best I can to re-channel their anger into assertiveness and self belief. They can still find resilience if they refuse to be beaten down by it all. Many of them are genuinely motivated by regaining belief in themselves and encouraging others they know to do the same. They do their best to help themselves and also help others. I can't change world politics but I can also do my best to help people within my (admittedly limited) sphere of influence in my work. I think Bion was trying to do that too.

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

Dema Reborn, on 20 May 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Same here about getting into the second tier we are only justers,in my head i hoped we would make it this time but in my heart i knew we wouldn't and i now very much doubt i will see it in my life time when you have been waiting around 46 years you seem to know.....only time will tell for this season but with what is happening now i feel we are going backwards i hope i am wrong.....

I can't see how we can possibly be as successful next season as we have this given the players that are supposedly leaving but we may just have to take it on the chin Keith and hope the sales, reduced debt and restructuring Of the club make us stronger in the longer term. As always we start the season on no points the same as everyone else and we live in hope

[Middle East]

Jackolt, on 20 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I read Cartman's stuff with interest regarding "simple truths". For me, he certainly has a point in what he says. Somebody else mentioned 'amateur psychology'. I thought it might help to put in my two penn'orth as a qualified psychotherapist, humanistic psychologist and God help me, a Town Fan since 1964.

First a little on what, at the time, felt like one of the worst weeks of my life (and you may not share my politics but...)I saw us lose 0-1 at home to Preston, I then tuned in to the election exit poll on the way home to West Yorkshire and knew instantly I'd be having to deal in my working life yet again, with the effects of the same old crap, social exclusion and despair, that I chose-had to deal with working with clients as a newly qualified social worker in 1979 (the effect on social policy and the socially excluded of 18 years of Blue Meanies government). Then I saw us lose at Preston and I also saw Paul Cook looking too chipper for my liking; then he went to Portsmouth next day; then I hear about him wanting all our best players. In my lifetime as a Spireite, I've seen us get close to 'Division Two - Championship' under Arthur Cox and then Paul Cook. I chose to think we could do it this time - probably a form of denial based on not wanting to accept all the signs that Cookie was already 'on the bus' to Portsmouth and that all the players knew it way before the Preston games - which would inevitably affect their performance in my view. Yes, we were perhaps fortunate to get to the playoffs but as someone else said, we were probably holed below the waterline before a ball was kicked against Preston.

The result of all the above on me? Despair, and quite definitely (I've seen it too many times in my career to deny it)a very powerful grief process. I also know I have to go to the depths of that process before I can begin to face the future again. In my line of work it's called "despair and empowerment", but it cannot fully work unless we fully feel all the stuff that takes us down... rage, hopelessness, depression, cynicism.. to name but a few emotional responses (and plenty of which I've seen on this Board lately). THEN, usually, if managed the right way, anger and even defiance can turn to assertiveness to fire us up to carry on with what we really believe in.

In my case this is what I felt and this is what I believe: I told myself, that having come through cancer, heart failure and open heart surgery in the last 5 years, I'm not going to let the politics of self interest and exclusion, nor the cruel vagaries of Football stop me being a professional working with a lifelong belief in the common good and caring for others (no talk of this ludicrous concept of "aspiration" from me unless its aspiration for all). And this recent pain of loss in Football will not EVER stop me being a Spireite, who still sees us with a future and still refuses to abandon the dream that we will continue to improve. Dreaming I would live on, not die, has certainly kept me alive, as I have also witnessed in working with others with life threatening illnesses. Plenty of Spireites also kept dreaming and working hard to save this club from self serving people like Darren Brown. Not least men with real courage like Jim Brown, who literally kept this Football Club alive.

Chesterfield FC belongs to all of us - it's in our blood. If you want it to continue and thrive, then whoever is CEO, whoever is Chairman, whoever is the Manager, whatever decisions they make you will need the following: a commitment to keep supporting the Town and its players no matter what / assertiveness and defiance / a sense of humour / a willingness to accept in life that the best feelings we can have will always inevitably live side by side with some of the worst.

But most of all you will need resilience and a real faith in what you believe in and a willingness to never give up on what you dream for. As Goethe said, "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it". As Langston Hughes said, "Hold fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly".

Hope that helps!!

That my friend is simply a brilliant post....to say it has struck a chord is an understatement. If I could give you a hundred positives I would!