[spireitetoo]

fishini, on 27 March 2024 - 10:39 AM, said:

But it was dropping before said pandemic

Was it, ??

I was just putting a possible reason out there,...

You could add an ever increasing population.

And NHS being underfunded for decades too.

I'm not defending the government btw, just putting possible reasons out there..

This post has been edited by spireitetoo: 27 March 2024 - 11:48 AM

[dart in the crossbar]

spireitetoo, on 27 March 2024 - 10:25 AM, said:

A pandemic, leaving the NHS playing catch up, a population that is struggling with health issues caused by said pandemic, and over cautious folk turning up at A&E for the slightest little thing pushing waiting times to the extreme.. ??

And it could be folks being hacked off with having too many hospitals to choose from when they get their next day apointments for surgery, or people getting annoyed at being given rooms that are too luxurious and over-staffed when in hospital, or folks getting bombarded with flyers from NHS dentists trying to persuade them to join their practices, or maybe just getting plain fed up about all the 'outstanding' ratings that have been given to medical facilities near to them.

[spireitetoo]

dart in the crossbar, on 27 March 2024 - 12:38 PM, said:

And it could be folks being hacked off with having too many hospitals to choose from when they get their next day apointments for surgery, or people getting annoyed at being given rooms that are too luxurious and over-staffed when in hospital, or folks getting bombarded with flyers from NHS dentists trying to persuade them to join their practices, or maybe just getting plain fed up about all the 'outstanding' ratings that have been given to medical facilities near to them.

And relax......

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 27 March 2024 - 06:27 AM, said:

It's how folk who think a hundred grand isn't a huge salary see those who don't get it...

come and live down here and see...

starter home £500k, so put £100k down and borrow £400k, over 25 years....say £2200

Nursery fees for 1 child full time - say £1200 a month

Commute to your job in London to get that salary (including parking at station), 3 days a week (lets have a bit of wfh) - £500 a month


£100k salary is about £5650 a month, less if you have student loan to repay and are paying into a pension.

That leaves £1750 for paying for a car, paying for food, council tax, utilities and all the other stuff like mobile bills, gym membership etc etc. Lets say you are paying 300 a month for a car, £280 for council tax, £250 for gas, water, electric, £60 for mobile and broadband, £30 for gym, that's £920.... you have £800 for food, clothes and fun for a month, less than £200 a week....

I havent allowed for chucking money into a pension to buy you anything decent at that....and if you have two kids in nursery then forget it, you are on bread and jam....

[isleaiw1]

spireitetoo, on 27 March 2024 - 11:34 AM, said:

Was it, ??

I was just putting a possible reason out there,...

You could add an ever increasing population.

And NHS being underfunded for decades too.

I'm not defending the government btw, just putting possible reasons out there..

On the underfunding piece this article is interesting.

https://www.nuffield...e-past-10-years

We seem to be spending more than we planned way back in 2015, but its not having the desired effect. Whether that is because what we need to spend is increasing more rapidly than expected, or we are spending it less well than expected, I am not sure anyone can answer with certainty, but I'd suggest its probably an element of both.

Its OK though, as all will be en route to being solved very shortly....

(the solution is probably not palatable for anyone but saving free services for those who cant afford anything else and leaving those who can afford to pay to fund insurance backed medical care might be one option we have to consider as the population ages, people live longer, the birth rate falls, the number economically active declines, and medical care becomes increasingly more expensive).

dart in the crossbar, on 27 March 2024 - 12:38 PM, said:

And it could be folks being hacked off with having too many hospitals to choose from when they get their next day apointments for surgery, or people getting annoyed at being given rooms that are too luxurious and over-staffed when in hospital, or folks getting bombarded with flyers from NHS dentists trying to persuade them to join their practices, or maybe just getting plain fed up about all the 'outstanding' ratings that have been given to medical facilities near to them.

I think most would say that the service is pretty poor. But then I thought it was poor back in 2015 when my wife was ill and kept getting fobbed off and sent between two departments. What's important is why and how do we solve it. Throwing money at it may not be the solution and result in more waste and mismanagement...

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

spireitetoo, on 27 March 2024 - 11:34 AM, said:

Was it, ??

I was just putting a possible reason out there,...

You could add an ever increasing population.

And NHS being underfunded for decades too.

I'm not defending the government btw, just putting possible reasons out there..

The Pandemic certainly exacerbated issues, but don't forget we were nearly a hundred thousand staff short and seeing waiting times spiral long before it arrived.

Fair point about a growing (and aging) population too; but why are there now thousands fewer medics than in twenty fifteen when projections confirmed that? Those extra people will also be paying more taxes.

Bottom line is what we're seeing today pretty much parallels what we saw in ninety seven...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 27 March 2024 - 04:23 PM

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 27 March 2024 - 04:23 PM, said:

The Pandemic certainly exacerbated issues, but don't forget we were nearly a hundred thousand staff short and seeing waiting times spiral long before it arrived.

Fair point about a growing (and aging) population too; but why are there now thousands fewer medics than in twenty fifteen when projections confirmed that? Those extra people will also be paying more taxes.

Bottom line is what we're seeing today pretty much parallels what we saw in ninety seven...

arent all the doctors (and maybe nurses) retiring early because of their fab pensions
Youngsters dont want to do it as its not as sexy as being an influencer or working in media and marketing...

As I say, it will be good to see what the new lot (99% certain) will do to improve things. Its easier to pick holes than resolve....

The funding suggests we arent tailing off massively in real terms (depends on how you define inflation, it might be up in real terms) but just spending more and taxing more isnt the solution....

For reference my private medical insurance - paid by the company and I get taxed on - has nearly doubled in last three years as more and more people are using that for treatment. Is that the solution? Instead of taxing people on the benefit, I'd be encouraging companies to provide it and people to take it... less for the NHS to deal with...

Didnt post 1997 see a flood of PFI initiatives to fund new hospitals which are now a very expensive legacy as those negotiating for the govt werent up to the required capability compared to their private sector counterparts resulting in some very good deals for the private part of public private finance?

[spireitetoo]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 27 March 2024 - 04:23 PM, said:

The Pandemic certainly exacerbated issues, but don't forget we were nearly a hundred thousand staff short and seeing waiting times spiral long before it arrived.

Fair point about a growing (and aging) population too; but why are there now thousands fewer medics than in twenty fifteen when projections confirmed that? Those extra people will also be paying more taxes.

Bottom line is what we're seeing today pretty much parallels what we saw in ninety seven...

How does labour propose to change this situation??

Junior doctors overworked underpaid and understaffed because of it, HCA's ( of which my Mrs is one) the same, doctors either retiring earlier ( as Ian alluded too) or upon passing their degrees, moving into private health care for better money/hours..
Same with nurses, when they can work stacking shelves/tills in Aldi/Lidl and earn more than R lass does for taking blood samples or diagnosing STD's ( yes she does that not the doctors)

The NHS has needed a complete overhaul for decades, yet government after government just keeps it ticking over, without proper investment nothing will ever change.

If just 1 of the 2 possible candidates for government would actually come out and say, ok we're going to stick 2p on the base rate tax, and 5p on the top rate, and every penny of that will be used to fund and rebuild the NHS, with a seperate mixed party dedicated team of politicians to over see this, then I could be persuaded to vote... unfortunately that's going to happen and the NHS will continue to decline.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

spireitetoo, on 27 March 2024 - 06:47 PM, said:

How does labour propose to change this situation??

Junior doctors overworked underpaid and understaffed because of it, HCA's ( of which my Mrs is one) the same, doctors either retiring earlier ( as Ian alluded too) or upon passing their degrees, moving into private health care for better money/hours..
Same with nurses, when they can work stacking shelves/tills in Aldi/Lidl and earn more than R lass does for taking blood samples or diagnosing STD's ( yes she does that not the doctors)

The NHS has needed a complete overhaul for decades, yet government after government just keeps it ticking over, without proper investment nothing will ever change.

If just 1 of the 2 possible candidates for government would actually come out and say, ok we're going to stick 2p on the base rate tax, and 5p on the top rate, and every penny of that will be used to fund and rebuild the NHS, with a seperate mixed party dedicated team of politicians to over see this, then I could be persuaded to vote... unfortunately that's going to happen and the NHS will continue to decline.

I've always found it strange that folk will happily pay into a private health scheme, yet baulk at paying a few more quid in tax to fund a top quality NHS.

Problem is any party propising that (and it's never gonna be the tories, is it) will be saughtered by a Mail-esque media today trying to dismantle the Beeb.

Good news is the survey in question revealed a majority prepared to do exactly that, though...

[spireitetoo]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 27 March 2024 - 07:15 PM, said:

I've always found it strange that folk will happily pay into a private health scheme, yet baulk at paying a few more quid in tax to fund a top quality NHS.

Problem is any party propising that (and it's never gonna be the tories, is it) will be saughtered by a Mail-esque media today trying to dismantle the Beeb.

Good news is the survey in question revealed a majority prepared to do exactly that, though...

Genuinely I think the majority of the working populace would have no problem paying a bit more in tax if all the extra was spent on the NHS, I know those I work with all agree with that, all it needs is a party to put that into policy.. then bobs ya mothers brother...

[isleaiw1]

spireitetoo, on 27 March 2024 - 06:47 PM, said:

How does labour propose to change this situation??

Junior doctors overworked underpaid and understaffed because of it, HCA's ( of which my Mrs is one) the same, doctors either retiring earlier ( as Ian alluded too) or upon passing their degrees, moving into private health care for better money/hours..
Same with nurses, when they can work stacking shelves/tills in Aldi/Lidl and earn more than R lass does for taking blood samples or diagnosing STD's ( yes she does that not the doctors)

The NHS has needed a complete overhaul for decades, yet government after government just keeps it ticking over, without proper investment nothing will ever change.

If just 1 of the 2 possible candidates for government would actually come out and say, ok we're going to stick 2p on the base rate tax, and 5p on the top rate, and every penny of that will be used to fund and rebuild the NHS, with a seperate mixed party dedicated team of politicians to over see this, then I could be persuaded to vote... unfortunately that's going to happen and the NHS will continue to decline.

They'd just urine it up the wall. Giving them more money is not the answer...

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 27 March 2024 - 07:15 PM, said:

I've always found it strange that folk will happily pay into a private health scheme, yet baulk at paying a few more quid in tax to fund a top quality NHS.

Problem is any party propising that (and it's never gonna be the tories, is it) will be saughtered by a Mail-esque media today trying to dismantle the Beeb.

Good news is the survey in question revealed a majority prepared to do exactly that, though...

Many of them are paying more tax - 62%, 47%, excluding any loss of child benefit or free nursery hours. When is enough enough.

Some of us did vote last time for the party who were going to add a penny to income tax to fund the NHS. And pay extra tax (about 300 quid a year) for being in private health cover through work. Maybe some are doing their bit and a few others need to do a bit more.... say those who take out more than they put in, or those who deal in cash and dont pay their fair share....?

[isleaiw1]

spireitetoo, on 27 March 2024 - 07:36 PM, said:

Genuinely I think the majority of the working populace would have no problem paying a bit more in tax if all the extra was spent on the NHS, I know those I work with all agree with that, all it needs is a party to put that into policy.. then bobs ya mothers brother...

Both Germany and Australia, which are said to have good health care systems, have a mix of public funding and private health insurance. Its time we followed suit instead of being wedded to a badly run organisation that doesnt offer good value for money, or great service for the patients.

Let those with money pay for insurance and provide a state system for those who cant. Smaller organisation that can be run better in public hands and leave the insurance industry to sort out care in the private sector.

That might mean better patient care and less wasted money...

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Feargal Sharkey on top form...

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=D5nGVbzQx-Q

The tories privatised water then handed the companies tens of billions of public money, most of which's gone to shareholders and directors. They also turned a blind eye to countless environmental violations and/or allowed said companies to factor feeble fines into their costs.

And now they're charging customers to clear up the filthy mess they've created.

The answer's easy - impose proper penalties, don't allow the privatised companies to put their prices up by a single penny, then re-nationalise when they inevitably renege on their contracts...

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 27 March 2024 - 09:15 PM, said:

Feargal Sharkey on top form...

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=D5nGVbzQx-Q

The tories privatised water then handed the companies tens of billions of public money, most of which's gone to shareholders and directors. They also turned a blind eye to countless environmental violations and/or allowed said companies to factor feeble fines into their costs.

And now they're charging customers to clear up the filthy mess they've created.

The answer's easy - impose proper penalties, don't allow the privatised companies to put their prices up by a single penny, then re-nationalise when they inevitably renege on their contracts...

Factually incorrect in the opening para. Google would tell you that they have invested £190 billion, paid dividends of £72 billion and borrowed £53 billion since privatisation, so it could be argued that only 19 billion net has been paid in divis from funds they were given and the rest borrowed...


You keep posting new stuff without responding to comments made on earlier stuff....

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

isleaiw1, on 27 March 2024 - 09:31 PM, said:

Factually incorrect in the opening para. Google would tell you that they have invested £190 billion, paid dividends of £72 billion and borrowed £53 billion since privatisation, so it could be argued that only 19 billion net has been paid in divis from funds they were given and the rest borrowed...


You keep posting new stuff without responding to comments made on earlier stuff....

I'm simply avoiding the same old hamster wheel, Ian.

The one where someone posts criticism of the tories, you try to turn it back onto Labour, chuck in a couple lefty takeover conspiracy theories, give your anti union prejudices another outing, then finish by insisting you're unbiased and balanced and will see what the manifestos say before deciding which way to vote.

Alongside the inevitable mention of pensions, of course.

Either way I see this morning shareholders have denied Thames Water any further support, probably meaning the Government stepping in with yet more public money in the not too distant future.

Re-nationalisation or somehow funding a failed private company?

Or simply call an election and put everyone out their misery...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 28 March 2024 - 10:43 AM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Johnnyspireite7, on 26 March 2024 - 08:20 PM, said:

And now they've appointed the neanderthal Gullis as deputy chairman, frying pan, fire anyone?

Yup, another 'Thirty Pee Lee' in sooooo many ways... https://www.mirror.c...gullis-32458614

Not forgetting... https://www.huffingt...4b06dedef7ea489

[s42blue]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 28 March 2024 - 10:42 AM, said:

I'm simply avoiding the same old hamster wheel, Ian.

The one where someone posts criticism of the tories, you try to turn it back onto Labour, chuck in a couple lefty takeover conspiracy theories, give your anti union prejudices another outing, then finish by insisting you're unbiased and balanced and will see what the manifestos say before deciding which way to vote.

Alongside the inevitable mention of pensions, of course.

Either way I see this morning shareholders have denied Thames Water any further support, probably meaning the Government stepping in with yet more public money in the not too distant future.

Re-nationalisation or somehow funding a failed private company?

Or simply call an election and put everyone out their misery...

Made me smile tbh. A succinct synopsis.

Aren’t we all on a hamster wheel? (Good analogy btw). I am, Hotelman and you..we all are. 😂. I’m sure he’ll respond with a summary of your thoughts. I hope so! 🤞.

Let’s hope it’s a Good Friday 🤞⚽️

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 28 March 2024 - 10:42 AM, said:

I'm simply avoiding the same old hamster wheel, Ian.

The one where someone posts criticism of the tories, you try to turn it back onto Labour, chuck in a couple lefty takeover conspiracy theories, give your anti union prejudices another outing, then finish by insisting you're unbiased and balanced and will see what the manifestos say before deciding which way to vote.

Alongside the inevitable mention of pensions, of course.

Either way I see this morning shareholders have denied Thames Water any further support, probably meaning the Government stepping in with yet more public money in the not too distant future.

Re-nationalisation or somehow funding a failed private company?

Or simply call an election and put everyone out their misery...

Whereas what I see is you throw up some claims, someone gives a different view or alternate facts and then you ignore it and then at some later stage its just because I worry about a lefty takeover....

So how would Labour solve the NHS problem? we are all paying more taxes that at pretty much any time since the war (well those of who dont work cash in hand), when is enough enough? And how can you raise more if we are already paying more?

As for an election putting everyone out of their misery, even Rachel Reeves says she doesnt have a magic wand and it wont get better overnight...

Might worry about tax incomes though as apparently Rayner has a tax adviser, who she wont share, who knows rules that no one I know knows about (and my friends include tax partners at the biggest accountancy firms!), But its OK as SKS backs her even though he hasnt seen the advice...

PS got my Labour missions leaflet - because I do look at them and the manifestos before deciding .... It says "Get the NHS back on its feet by paying NHS staff to deliver 2 million more appointments on evenings and weekends". Lower down it says everything is fully funded. Putting those together with what you have already said.... where are these staff coming from? How much will it cost? Where is the money coming from? Its fully costed so there has to be an operational plan. Tell us....or will the devil be in the detail and big words are much easier than showing the detail...

Please tell me that is how you look at it and dont just go, its Labour it will all be fine!

PS it also says that we will have 13000 extra police and PCSOs (I assume they mean or and we arent having 26000 in total) and breakfast clubs in every primary school, and 500 new specialist teachers.... is that magic money tree available for all, or if not where is it being funded from? After all, its all worked through and fully funded....

(my guess is there will be mentions of efficiency gains and better collection and less waste somewhere in it)

This post has been edited by isleaiw1: 28 March 2024 - 02:33 PM

[isleaiw1]

s42blue, on 28 March 2024 - 01:28 PM, said:

Made me smile tbh. A succinct synopsis.

Aren’t we all on a hamster wheel? (Good analogy btw). I am, Hotelman and you..we all are. 😂. I’m sure he’ll respond with a summary of your thoughts. I hope so! 🤞.

Let’s hope it’s a Good Friday 🤞⚽️

Of course he will, got to keep the hamster wheel spinning.... lets be honest that is all the politicians do and in the meantime the civil servants make things happen...


But you can absolutely guarantee that when someones says that the solution to a problem is raise more tax or nationalise it, I'll have something to say... It didnt work then and it wont work now...

Think of different solutions, look what others do. And learn. As there is a reason why we moved on from the past, normally because life has moved on and shown us new options....