[Trigger]

They were all free transfers anyway but they base it on the market value of each player. Not sure how he came up with a million pounds worth of transfers based on the players they've signed and the clubs they've come from.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

moondog, on 05 July 2019 - 06:38 PM, said:

Yes it appears sales have held up well, I think the after thought to pledge to freeze prices for next season for those that bought them was a key factor as many have high hopes we've got the right man in Sheridan and it will be league football again next season.

I'd like to think the figures will be accurate, we do keep getting told we have a state of the art ticketing system, so there shouldn't be a need to blame human error going forward.

I hope come the season start date we'll get a final figure on ST sales with separate numbers for give aways and their categories. Circa 600 as in recent years seems ridiculously high especially when they appear not to be used and does little to convince fans the club is being run on a sound commercial footing, if it was I think fans would invest more.

I'm not sure there was a reluctance to provide figures, he kept his pledge to provide me with the no show figures for each game knowing I'd publish them on here. The issue for me is having to figure out why so many every game.

And it's Carson's reluctance to investigate why summat like a quarter of ticket holders weren't bothering that's really bewildering, 'M'.

As you say it was an issue he was happy to highlight; but why not see if it was the same six hundred(ish) staying away every week? Surely an easy enough fact to find out given the turnstile system (which seemed accurate enough to use when pursuing pitch protestors, by the way). Then if it was, why not get in touch to find out their reasons? Wouldn't that be positive and proative PR? And hey, he can't hide behind GDPR excuses given he publicised Paul Goodwin's supposedly confidential application then the farce surrounding punters being asked for their details.

The Club insist this is all an innocent mistake, however that reluctance only feeds supporter cynicism and suspicions of another 'James Higgins' style scenario...

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

DIFH, on 05 July 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

...reading this board during close season is somewhat hard going.

That'll be those specs of your's, Dave.

Y'know, the rosy tinted ones you suddenly acquired a couple of months ago...

[Jack Lester's Cast]

MDCCCLXVI, on 06 July 2019 - 11:23 AM, said:

That'll be those specs of your's, Dave.

Y'know, the rosy tinted ones you suddenly acquired a couple of months ago...

The wind will change soon and our resident flip-flopper will alter his view point yet again... and again... and again.

DIFH is the Chuka Umunna of this board, a meeting with Beano and he thinks all is rosie at CFC towers.

[Nivo]

Jack Lester, on 06 July 2019 - 11:58 AM, said:

The wind will change soon and our resident flip-flopper will alter his view point yet again... and again... and again.

DIFH is the Chuka Umunna of this board, a meeting with Beano and he thinks all is rosie at CFC towers.

Synchronised pocket notebook syndrome.

[moondog]

MDCCCLXVI, on 06 July 2019 - 11:21 AM, said:

And it's Carson's reluctance to investigate why summat like a quarter of ticket holders weren't bothering that's really bewildering, 'M'.

As you say it was an issue he was happy to highlight; but why not see if it was the same six hundred(ish) staying away every week? Surely an easy enough fact to find out given the turnstile system (which seemed accurate enough to use when pursuing pitch protestors, by the way). Then if it was, why not get in touch to find out their reasons? Wouldn't that be positive and proative PR? And hey, he can't hide behind GDPR excuses given he publicised Paul Goodwin's supposedly confidential application then the farce surrounding punters being asked for their details.

The Club insist this is all an innocent mistake, however that reluctance only feeds supporter cynicism and suspicions of another 'James Higgins' style scenario...

I couldn't agree more, it should be easy enough to run a report off the ticketing system if it's as state of the art as we are told.

I think the failure to investigate indicates the club knows the reason, which now appears as the numbers are very similar, that the no shows are mainly made up from holders of season tickets that weren't actually purchased.

This raises the point that there is little demand for these tickets, so why issue them ?

The answer appears to be to inflate the numbers, but why would we want to do that ?

It's a shame that when clubs have to declare the actual attendees the league (EFL anyway) won't publish or provide them as we could then see what the average is

[dim view]

moondog, on 07 July 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

The answer appears to be to inflate the numbers, but why would we want to do that ?

The owner of Wrong Un's United, Italian third division south, has $100k dodgy cash. He buys 500 ST's for fictitious fans, pays the VAT, then pays himself $80k in debt interest at year end. He's laundered 100k dodgy into 80k legit.

He tells fans that there are consistently 500ish no shows to explain the paradox of high ST sales but hundreds of empty seats, and he ensures that no forensic auditing ever happens.

I can feel a novel coming on, with the Fiction Prize to follow.

This post has been edited by dim view: 07 July 2019 - 02:58 PM

[isleaiw1]

dim view, on 07 July 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

The owner of Wrong Un's United, Italian third division south, has $100k dodgy cash. He buys 500 ST's for fictitious fans, pays the VAT, then pays himself $80k in debt interest at year end. He's laundered 100k dodgy into 80k legit.

He tells fans that there are consistently 500ish no shows to explain the paradox of high ST sales but hundreds of empty seats, and he ensures that no forensic auditing ever happens.

I can feel a novel coming on, with the Fiction Prize to follow.

That is of course the sort of stufffor novels only - or Italy, perhaps, allegedly...

[dim view]

isleaiw1, on 07 July 2019 - 04:19 PM, said:

That is of course the sort of stufffor novels only - or Italy, perhaps, allegedly...

At the risk of boring people, please humour me.

How would such a fraud be detected?
You would presumably have to show that some individuals awarded complimentary ST's had in fact had their ticket paid for. No auditor would ever check that detail.

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

moondog, on 07 July 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

I couldn't agree more, it should be easy enough to run a report off the ticketing system if it's as state of the art as we are told.

I think the failure to investigate indicates the club knows the reason, which now appears as the numbers are very similar, that the no shows are mainly made up from holders of season tickets that weren't actually purchased.

This raises the point that there is little demand for these tickets, so why issue them ?

The answer appears to be to inflate the numbers, but why would we want to do that ?

It's a shame that when clubs have to declare the actual attendees the league (EFL anyway) won't publish or provide them as we could then see what the average is

There would be plenty of demand for them if we were winning. Perhaps if they weren’t issued some of them might pay if we were doing well. Cronies and hangers on has always been a problem for town even at Saltergate

[Hoare (400)]

Ernie Ernie Ernie, on 07 July 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

There would be plenty of demand for them if we were winning. Perhaps if they weren’t issued some of them might pay if we were doing well. Cronies and hangers on has always been a problem for town even at Saltergate

They don't call them cronies or hangers on anymore, they call them directors and agents lol.



Hoare (400)

[Mr Mercury]

dim view, on 07 July 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

The owner of Wrong Un's United, Italian third division south, has $100k dodgy cash. He buys 500 ST's for fictitious fans, pays the VAT, then pays himself $80k in debt interest at year end. He's laundered 100k dodgy into 80k legit.

He tells fans that there are consistently 500ish no shows to explain the paradox of high ST sales but hundreds of empty seats, and he ensures that no forensic auditing ever happens.

I can feel a novel coming on, with the Fiction Prize to follow.

Don't talk silly, what you say is stupid...it's almost like creating a fake winner of a raffle....oh..hang on.

dim view, on 07 July 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

The owner of Wrong Un's United, Italian third division south, has $100k dodgy cash. He buys 500 ST's for fictitious fans, pays the VAT, then pays himself $80k in debt interest at year end. He's laundered 100k dodgy into 80k legit.

He tells fans that there are consistently 500ish no shows to explain the paradox of high ST sales but hundreds of empty seats, and he ensures that no forensic auditing ever happens.

I can feel a novel coming on, with the Fiction Prize to follow.

Don't talk silly, what you say is stupid...it's almost like creating a fake winner of a raffle....oh..hang on.

[isleaiw1]

dim view, on 07 July 2019 - 05:11 PM, said:

At the risk of boring people, please humour me.

How would such a fraud be detected?
You would presumably have to show that some individuals awarded complimentary ST's had in fact had their ticket paid for. No auditor would ever check that detail.

I guess these days most likely to be picked up if they did a walkthrough test on a season ticket sale and checked the whole transaction from order through to payment into bank and checked that payee matched the name to which the ticket was issued. Highly unlikely in this day and age of external auditors doing bare minimum and relying on materiality. Now if there was an Internal Audit team they might pick it up - or a Finance Director who had a healthy level of cynicism....and wasnt involved (if you have been following the Patisserie Valerie scandal...)

[Brownyblue]

Does anyone know when ST's get sent out? Or do you have to collect them?

[Stockholm Spireite]

isleaiw1, on 08 July 2019 - 10:52 AM, said:

I guess these days most likely to be picked up if they did a walkthrough test on a season ticket sale and checked the whole transaction from order through to payment into bank and checked that payee matched the name to which the ticket was issued. Highly unlikely in this day and age of external auditors doing bare minimum and relying on materiality. Now if there was an Internal Audit team they might pick it up - or a Finance Director who had a healthy level of cynicism....and wasnt involved (if you have been following the Patisserie Valerie scandal...)

What extra steps would have to be taken if these tickets were all paid for in cash? Possibly transactions outside office hours when staff have left for the day?

Does the ST database include names like Clem Fandango, Beezus Fuffoon, Dinky Frinkbuster, Norris Flipjack and the like? All of whom never show up...?

[Spire-Power]

Brownyblue, on 08 July 2019 - 11:18 AM, said:

Does anyone know when ST's get sent out? Or do you have to collect them?

Presume it's not a renewal. Think it was a week or so before season started last time, and collection

[isleaiw1]

I assume transactions are time stamped on the system for issue? And any cash received should be recorded and listed by payee somewhere - so you should be able to see who the money has come from. Obviously the person receiving the cash shouldnt be the one recording it in the books so there should be someone who reviews the names and amounts.

Companies should also have an anti money laundering policy which lists maximum amount of cash they will take and what proof of ID etc is needed above that limit. If it were a gambling business you would also want source of funds for significant amounts so you can check where the persons wealth comes from under Know Your Client rules.

This post has been edited by isleaiw1: 08 July 2019 - 12:42 PM

[dim view]

isleaiw1, on 08 July 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

I assume transactions are time stamped on the system for issue? And any cash received should be recorded and listed by payee somewhere - so you should be able to see who the money has come from. Obviously the person receiving the cash shouldnt be the one recording it in the books so there should be someone who reviews the names and amounts.

Companies should also have an anti money laundering policy which lists maximum amount of cash they will take and what proof of ID etc is needed above that limit. If it were a gambling business you would also want source of funds for significant amounts so you can check where the persons wealth comes from under Know Your Client rules.

I'm pleased that one fan's fantasy about why ST numbers might be inflated at an imaginary club a million miles away from Chesterfield should be considered plausible by a proper accountant, so thanks. But surely other more realistic people can thing of far more straightforward, solid, reasons? This could all be cleared up if Graham Bean asked Carson for the reason and then told us.

One simple thing that would surely point to this being bollox is if this years ST takings are similar, allowing for the price rise, to last year's, and the year before that. Are these specific numbers shown in the accounts?

[isleaiw1]

dim view, on 08 July 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

I'm pleased that one fan's fantasy about why ST numbers might be inflated at an imaginary club a million miles away from Chesterfield should be considered plausible by a proper accountant, so thanks. But surely other more realistic people can thing of far more straightforward, solid, reasons? This could all be cleared up if Graham Bean asked Carson for the reason and then told us.

One simple thing that would surely point to this being bollox is if this years ST takings are similar, allowing for the price rise, to last year's, and the year before that. Are these specific numbers shown in the accounts?

To answer your last question, I doubt they will be shown in the accounts that go to shareholders but the directors should get that level of breakdown and an analysis of what has changed v budget and last year and more importantly, why....

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Am I the only one wondering if some sort of cat's been let out of some sort of bag, here?