[frearsghost]

spireiterob, on 16 November 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

Can't quite work out whether you are being serious or not.

The principled Dominic Raab, who resigned over the deal he presided over? Who didn't even realise that the Dover - Calais route was so important to our trade!

The principled Boris Johnson, campaigned to boost his career, promised impossible fantasy promises, never expected leave to win - and then ran away as soon as it did!

The principled 'Hard Brexiteer' David Davis, who did the precise sum of diddly squat and now sits sniping on the sidelines?

'Hard Brexiteer' Rees Mogg - so patriotic and principled he has moved his business to Ireland? https://www.independ...n-a8398041.html

'Hard Brexiteer' John Redwood - so patriotic and principled he advised investors to take their money out the UK? https://www.forbes.c...k/#71da4f714c1e

I admire May on this occasion for attempting to make the best of an impossible situation. She has been left in the lurch by the very people who say the most but do very little. And resign to boost their own personal profile.

It has been roundly agreed by many that the deal is damaged limitation, not as good economically for the UK as staying in the EU, but limits the harsh negative economic impact that No deal would give us. Of course not much would satisfy the bizarre No Deal Fantasists, but at least still has a modicum of sensible economics around trade etc which she had to put the country first in that sense and not play into their hands. Fair play to her.

Well for someone who doesn't want to discuss his views you've come out pretty strongly with them. I agree with your last couple of sentences but I'm not talking about Theresa May here. I'm yet to be convinced you're not driven politically.

The criticism of the politicians are grossly unfair. I haven't heard the context of Raab's statement, but it's not an indication he not fit for office. You attack individuals unjustifiably and it's consistent with your previous criticism of Rees Mogg, suggesting he has invested interests and Farage and Banks rigging the money markets.

There are things you don't understand about how governments work. The first is that it's not politicians who run the country, it's civil servants. Dominic Raab has been no more in control of the negotiations than you or I. The chief negotiator, whose spent over 400 hours in Brussels, is Ollie Robbins, an unelected EU fanatic and the PM's private secretary. The Chequer's Charter is predominantly his. I was told Raab spent no more than a total of eight hours in Brussels. So, if you were done up like a kipper, how would you feel?

David Davies is another ex Brexit minister who discovered early on that Downing Street was leading the negotiations. A experienced politician and ex SAS, he served his country bravely and secretly in war zones. He doesn't deserve your scorn that he's 'sniping on the sidelines.'

Then there's Boris Johnson. You seem to believe that individuals are not, or should not, be ambitious. Are you ambitious? Do others criticise and despise you for being ambitious like you do him? He didn't promise the impossible. He promised you your freedom to elect a sovereign government and more money for the NHS. He was castigated for it just like Farage was castigated for warning us about an EU army. Both have been proven right. This morning on the radio, the PM said she was wrong about the money available for the NHS. It wasn't 350 million, it was 360 million a week. How embarrassing is that for the EU protagonists who orchestrated a concerted attack on the claim. Will they apologise, probably not.

You also seem to telling us that politicians are not allowed to invest oversees as if this were some sort of crime. It isn't. People are free to invest where they like as long as it's legal. The money you have in your bank account is invested overseas, irrespective of whether we are in or out of the EU, yet you believe this is an avenue for character assassination. It is not against the law to avoid tax by investing overseas. You should try it.

In a nutshell, I think it's wrong not to admire the qualities of your adversaries. It's not as if the remainers are angels of virtue but some of them
are, no doubt, principled.

Look, it's not my attention to offend or fall out with you. I respect your views. It's what democracy's all about. I wont be replying with long responses like this again. It seem such a long winded reply to answer such simple misconceptions. But that's all I seem to do with threads like these and it's getting a bit dull.

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 16 November 2018 - 06:38 PM

[AllTownArentWe]

On the bright side come 5 o'clock tomorrow afternoon we'll all probably be angry at the same thing.

[frearsghost]

MDCCCLXVI, on 16 November 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

No, I don't think you're swivel-eyed, John.

But I do think you're much better than this.

You've failed to address any of the points in the original article or my reply to 'AllTownAren'tWe'.

Who, alongside 'S&D', did at least respond to my request for examples.

Infact your final, rather insulting sentence alongside accusing me of 'Project Fear' (really? Me regurgitating? From someone levelling that tired old taunt?) is all too similar to what I've spent the last twenty four hours listening to (although that might easily be twenty four months) from Brexiteers with no answers to 'Remoaner' facts.

Come on my friend, there's no need for this kinda stuff between you and I. Especially as you must be the only person who sees me as in any way 'Establishment' orientated. As opposed to the multi-millionaires funding and profiting from Brexit, of course.



And I haven't mocked the 'will of the people' - I've mocked those using it as some card to trump realty.

Do you know what 'the will of the people' is? I certainly don't. Largely because the vote was binary - either remain or leave. Nothing about a Teresa May Brexit, nothing about a Reece-Mogg Brexit, nothing about a Corbyn Brexit, and nothing, absolutely nothing about a no deal Brexit. The very thing those now advocating it so often dubbed scaremongering.

Indeed I'm more than happy to see what the 'will of the people' is now virtually every promise, every assurance and every claim made by those advocating Brexit has come crashing down around them.

'The 'will of the people' is an outcome of democracy, a consequence of the franchise. Democracy is owned by the people. It does not belong to the government but is loaned to them by the people for a set period of time. The government will govern in the best interests according to the wishes of the people.'

Whether it is binary or not, the consequences and validity of the vote are fixed until the government falls or the set period of time has expired - irrespective of whether it is a good or bad government and the decisions it has taken.

The referendum was a binary choice, a parliamentary legislated vote according to law. The result must stand until the government falls and a new government repeals the act. To repeal the act before the result of the referendum has been completed is a perversion of our democracy and undermines the very essence of our strong and stable constitution; the envy of the world. The consequences of perverting our democracy could be long lasting. It's equivalent to repealing the result of a General Election.

Those who want to remain in the EU must first implement the result of the referendum and if they still wish to remain in the EU, begin a new campaign.

I hope that's helped.



Under the thread, 'Ball Boys' #13 you wrote:

"Because those that died did so to allow us the freedom not to be dictated to?"

This is an astonishing contradiction given your support for the EU and the transfer of our constitutional powers that has already led to a dictatorial relationship

You know Chris you really have to start squaring some of your circles when it comes to understanding democracy.

Finally, I didn't realise the question was for me. I've already answered it. My reply was: "I cannot vote and dismiss a government that governs every aspect of my life as a British citizen" I'm not interested in the parochial issues that affect me on the street. I voted leave for one reason and one reason only, and I've just said it.

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 16 November 2018 - 08:18 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

Search and Destroy said:

1542208311[/url]' post='1430738']
The only possible reason for staying in the E.U. is that it's too easy to exploit cheap foreign labour and make millions if your in business, especially in London, while creaming profits from no export/import tariffs.

Edited for you.

[frearsghost]

MDCCCLXVI, on 16 November 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I think our friend 'Spireiterob' more than adequately dealt with this question, John.

Look; we've heard a lot about adopting the 'Canada' deal, or the Norway deal, or the Iceland or Swiss deal. But hold on - Margaret Thatcher and subsequent PM's negotiated a bespoke British deal that saw us enjoy all the EU's benefits yet kept us outside Shengen and the Euro.

However that wasn't good enough for some.

Problem is two and a half years after the vote not a single one of 'em can come up with anything better. Infact Farage is still sniping from the sidelines whilst happily accepting his MEP salary, Davies and Raab had their chance but blew it, all Johnson will be remembered for as Foreign Secretary is making Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe's situation worse and Gove has just ducked his opportunity to implement whatever version of Brexit he spent so long campaigning for.

Probably because he has as much clue how to deal with, say, the Irish border issue as everyone else that stood on a platform plucking promises from thin air.

PS: if those that've quit are somehow principled and moral, what does it say about those that haven't?

No he didn't. He was reduced to demeaning their characters. A bit like you're doing here. Are you telling us Farage should work for free? How can you possibly, with any veracity, say Davies and Raab 'blew it' when they were sidelined by May and Robins and what on earth has Johnson's gaff concerning Zaghari-Ratcliffe's predicament got to do with his belief about Britain becoming a sovereign nation? You do seem to have a monochrome view of people's behaviour from which you judge them positively/negatively according to your politics.

I think Rees-Moggs view on abortion is wrong. I think his views on Brexit are right. I'm not going to condemn his Brexit views because of his views on abortion.

Apropos you last sentence. It doesn't say anything. Those that stayed are probably just as principled in the belief that by staying they can work to change things.

Despite the fact you have not answered my question about what it is you like about being a citizen of a foreign government you never vote for and can never get rid of, I'll finish on a happier note. I was impressed with your long post. It was free of class war rhetoric, more measured as a result and easier to read.

Here's a present. You can print it out, enlarge it and pin it to your wall. It will enable you to focus on your own mortality.

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 16 November 2018 - 08:28 PM

[dart in the crossbar]

On the ' its not politicians that run the country, it's civil servants'. I can categorically say that this is incorrect.

'how high?' is the usual line from civil servants to politicians.

There can be some variations between different individuals, but basically what push comes to shove, this is the picture.

This post has been edited by dart in the crossbar: 17 November 2018 - 12:35 PM

[dart in the crossbar]

and on democracy...

the country voted to join the common market in the early 1970s.

the 'brexit' vote wasn't billed as a re-run of that vote

(and as brexiteers now seem very keen to point out, it's not democratic to ask the country same question more than once)

yet now the brexit vote apparently was about our membership of the 'common market' - news to me

it's almost as through those who have grabbed power post brexit are making up what the brexit vote was about as they go along

except it would obviously be undemocractic to go back to the people to ask them whether or not they want what brexit has now become

so what do I think that others think of us? not much to be honest.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

frearsghost, on 16 November 2018 - 06:33 PM, said:

Well for someone who doesn't want to discuss his views you've come out pretty strongly with them. I agree with your last couple of sentences but I'm not talking about Theresa May here. I'm yet to be convinced you're not driven politically.

The criticism of the politicians are grossly unfair. I haven't heard the context of Raab's statement, but it's not an indication he not fit for office. You attack individuals unjustifiably and it's consistent with your previous criticism of Rees Mogg, suggesting he has invested interests and Farage and Banks rigging the money markets.

There are things you don't understand about how governments work. The first is that it's not politicians who run the country, it's civil servants. Dominic Raab has been no more in control of the negotiations than you or I. The chief negotiator, whose spent over 400 hours in Brussels, is Ollie Robbins, an unelected EU fanatic and the PM's private secretary. The Chequer's Charter is predominantly his. I was told Raab spent no more than a total of eight hours in Brussels. So, if you were done up like a kipper, how would you feel?

David Davies is another ex Brexit minister who discovered early on that Downing Street was leading the negotiations. A experienced politician and ex SAS, he served his country bravely and secretly in war zones. He doesn't deserve your scorn that he's 'sniping on the sidelines.'

Then there's Boris Johnson. You seem to believe that individuals are not, or should not, be ambitious. Are you ambitious? Do others criticise and despise you for being ambitious like you do him? He didn't promise the impossible. He promised you your freedom to elect a sovereign government and more money for the NHS. He was castigated for it just like Farage was castigated for warning us about an EU army. Both have been proven right. This morning on the radio, the PM said she was wrong about the money available for the NHS. It wasn't 350 million, it was 360 million a week. How embarrassing is that for the EU protagonists who orchestrated a concerted attack on the claim. Will they apologise, probably not.

You also seem to telling us that politicians are not allowed to invest oversees as if this were some sort of crime. It isn't. People are free to invest where they like as long as it's legal. The money you have in your bank account is invested overseas, irrespective of whether we are in or out of the EU, yet you believe this is an avenue for character assassination. It is not against the law to avoid tax by investing overseas. You should try it.

In a nutshell, I think it's wrong not to admire the qualities of your adversaries. It's not as if the remainers are angels of virtue but some of them
are, no doubt, principled.

Look, it's not my attention to offend or fall out with you. I respect your views. It's what democracy's all about. I wont be replying with long responses like this again. It seem such a long winded reply to answer such simple misconceptions. But that's all I seem to do with threads like these and it's getting a bit dull.

So let's be clear what you're really saying, John - that not just one but two secretaries of state were somehow so undermined by civil servants they couldn't implement the Brexit they'd so enthusiastically advocated. That even the Prime Minister is just a meek and mild mouthpiece for yet more civil servants. That they were all rendered so utterly powerless - and obviously mute - they had no choice but to do the bidding of some unspecified 'deep state'.

Blimey, what next - influenced by Aliens? Tinfoil hats? Reds-under-the-bed?

Oh, no, that's Arron Banks, isn't it...

And hey - if the British government is so completely compromised why so much faith in it rather than the EU? What happened to all your high brow pontifications on democracy?

Then if you find pointing out Johnson's lies - proven lies some of which saw him sacked by The Times (and that's not even mentioning his shameless adultery), Reece-Moggs' proven hypocrisy (what more than him moving his businesses to Dublin for fear of Brexit does it take to convince you there's something seriously wrong?) and Farage profiting from the fall of the pound (ditto) 'grossly unfair criticism' or 'character assassination' how do you describe your dubbing Ollie Robbins an 'EU fanatic'?

Or could there be a far simpler explanation.

Farage, Johnson, Gove, Reece-Mogg, Raab and all the rest won. At which point they realised they'd have to deliver the promises they'd made. Yet knowing full well they'd lied. And lied. And lied again. So they quit. Unfortunately Teresa May put three of 'em in positions where they'd have to deliver. Well we all know how that turned out, don't we. Meanwhile a re-invented Gove-the-Green still ducked and dodged.

Then when what they and pretty much every other rational person realised would happen happened - a cobbled-together compromise worse than what we had before - they blamed Teresa May. Or the civil servants. Or the EU. Or everyone and everything but their own utterly unrealistic promises.

I think a growing number of people are seeing through them, though. I'm surprised, genuinely surprised you're not one of them, my friend.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

And this morning we have the recently resigned Brexit Secretary telling everyone how they should...

..sort out Brexit.

It's like Gary Caldwell telling Martin Allen how to avoid relegation.

[frearsghost]

MDCCCLXVI, on 17 November 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

So let's be clear what you're really saying, John - that not just one but two secretaries of state were somehow so undermined by civil servants they couldn't implement the Brexit they'd so enthusiastically advocated. That even the Prime Minister is just a meek and mild mouthpiece for yet more civil servants. That they were all rendered so utterly powerless - and obviously mute - they had no choice but to do the bidding of some unspecified 'deep state'.

Blimey, what next - influenced by Aliens? Tinfoil hats? Reds-under-the-bed?

Oh, no, that's Arron Banks, isn't it...

And hey - if the British government is so completely compromised why so much faith in it rather than the EU? What happened to all your high brow pontifications on democracy?

Then if you find pointing out Johnson's lies - proven lies some of which saw him sacked by The Times (and that's not even mentioning his shameless adultery), Reece-Moggs' proven hypocrisy (what more than him moving his businesses to Dublin for fear of Brexit does it take to convince you there's something seriously wrong?) and Farage profiting from the fall of the pound (ditto) 'grossly unfair criticism' or 'character assassination' how do you describe your dubbing Ollie Robbins an 'EU fanatic'?

Or could there be a far simpler explanation.

Farage, Johnson, Gove, Reece-Mogg, Raab and all the rest won. At which point they realised they'd have to deliver the promises they'd made. Yet knowing full well they'd lied. And lied. And lied again. So they quit. Unfortunately Teresa May put three of 'em in positions where they'd have to deliver. Well we all know how that turned out, don't we. Meanwhile a re-invented Gove-the-Green still ducked and dodged.

Then when what they and pretty much every other rational person realised would happen happened - a cobbled-together compromise worse than what we had before - they blamed Teresa May. Or the civil servants. Or the EU. Or everyone and everything but their own utterly unrealistic promises.

I think a growing number of people are seeing through them, though. I'm surprised, genuinely surprised you're not one of them, my friend.

There's isn't a politician, civil servant or academic in the whole of Whitehall who would accept you perception of how government works. This may shock you but even Prime Minsters can be frustrated by Civil Servants.

"Europe's power is easy to miss. Like an 'invisible hand' it operates through the shell of traditional political structures. The British House of Commons, British law courts and British civil servants are still here, but they have become agents of the European Union, implementing European law. This is no accident. By creating common standards that are implemented through national institutions, Europe can take over countries without necessarily becoming a target for hostility." Mark Leonard, Centre for European Reform, 2005.

I think that's enough from me.

Please don't think that because of our robust debate I don't respect your views or you as a person. I'd be happy to sit down in your company over a meal or a drink any time. I'd even let you pay.

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 19 November 2018 - 11:40 AM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

frearsghost, on 19 November 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

There's isn't a politicians, civil servant or academic in the whole of Whitehall who would accept you perception of how government works. This may shock you but even Prime Minsters can be frustrated by Civil Servants.

"Europe's power is easy to miss. Like an 'invisible hand' it operates through the shell of traditional political structures. The British House of Commons, British law courts and British civil servants are still here, but they have become agents of the European Union, implementing European law. This is no accident. By creating common standards that are implemented through national institutions, Europe can take over countries without necessarily becoming a target for hostility." Mark Leonard, Centre for European Reform, 2005.

I think that's enough from me.

Please don't think that because of our robust debate I don't respect your views or you as a person. I'd be happy to sit down in your company over a meal or a drink any time. I'd even let you pay.

And I'd be happy to pay for our friendly get together, John.

But in Euros...

[Nerima Spireite]

Siberian Spireite, on 16 November 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

Your lengthy and considered post before this one was much better than this one.

Honestly thought precisely the same. This second one reeks of tabloid bigotry. First one had me - a Remainer for all my sins (don’t panic Leavers - I didn’t/couldn’t vote and affect the vote “unduly” due to my long absence, but I think I can still form an opinion from outside) - thinking and even umming and ahhing.

This post has been edited by Nerima Spireite: 19 November 2018 - 03:58 PM

[frearsghost]

dart in the crossbar, on 17 November 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

On the ' its not politicians that run the country, it's civil servants'. I can categorically say that this is incorrect.

'how high?' is the usual line from civil servants to politicians.

There can be some variations between different individuals, but basically what push comes to shove, this is the picture.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Only just seen this. I'd be fascinated if you'd reveal what you 'categorically' know that leads you to wrongly conclude that civil servants don't frustrate and indeed, as here, formulate policy for politicians.

One Suella Braverman working with Davis and Raab in the DexEU, the ministry for exiting the EU.

Quote:

“This negotiation, rapidly acquiring the moniker of ‘the worst deal in history’ is the product of the civil service, not politicians. […] the failure of accountability to politicians was astonishing. Civil Servants would routinely return from Brussels with the fruits of their endeavours, often having strayed beyond Cabinet mandates or setting policy decisions in legally binding text before Ministers had even discussed them.”
(my emphasis).

We know that Whitehall is full of remainers, we knew that they were negotiating to remain. What is unprecedented though is that they made the decisions, not Ms May, not the ministers, not the elected politicians!

To repeat: the unelected, unaccountable grey suits in the EU and the unelected, unaccountable grey suits in Whitehall decided – no elected and thus accountable politician did. Not even Ms May.

Straight from the horses mouth as they say.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

frearsghost, on 20 November 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Only just seen this. I'd be fascinated if you'd reveal what you 'categorically' know that leads you to wrongly conclude that civil servants don't frustrate and indeed, as here, formulate policy for politicians.

One Suella Braverman working with Davis and Raab in the DexEU, the ministry for exiting the EU.

Quote:

“This negotiation, rapidly acquiring the moniker of ‘the worst deal in history’ is the product of the civil service, not politicians. […] the failure of accountability to politicians was astonishing. Civil Servants would routinely return from Brussels with the fruits of their endeavours, often having strayed beyond Cabinet mandates or setting policy decisions in legally binding text before Ministers had even discussed them.”
(my emphasis).

We know that Whitehall is full of remainers, we knew that they were negotiating to remain. What is unprecedented though is that they made the decisions, not Ms May, not the ministers, not the elected politicians!

To repeat: the unelected, unaccountable grey suits in the EU and the unelected, unaccountable grey suits in Whitehall decided – no elected and thus accountable politician did. Not even Ms May.

Straight from the horses mouth as they say.

.


Or straight from the mouth of an arch Brexiteer possibly seeking to excuse their litany of empty promises and downright lies?

PS: had to chuckle at this ludicrous press conference today: https://www.theguard...jacob-rees-mogg

Just collection of pale, stale males with nothing new to say.

[frearsghost]

MDCCCLXVI, on 20 November 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

.


Or straight from the mouth of an arch Brexiteer possibly seeking to excuse their litany of empty promises and downright lies?

PS: had to chuckle at this ludicrous press conference today: https://www.theguard...jacob-rees-mogg

Just collection of pale, stale males with nothing new to say.

I thought our conversation was over for the time being Chris but it seems once you get a grip of something, you don't let you go. My post was in reply to 'dart in the crossbar' on the topic of civil service power in government

Although I gave him the referendum negotiations as an example of the power of the civil service over government, remove the example and you're still left with the veracity of the reality. You have two options and I'm trying to be kind here. You can either ignore or mock the reality or, treat it as a learning curve and further your understanding because those who engage in discussing something they have no knowledge of will always be on the periphery of the debate or run the risk of being peremptorily dismissed by those who have had wiser council and experience, an embarrassing position in which to find oneself.

We need to give our interaction a break because I beginning to feel I'm fending off a troll, so I won't be replying again for a period of time. BTW, I've given you a green in sheer admiration of your plucky fortitude in serving the forces that seek to surrender our country. Just to show you there's no hard feelings!

[dart in the crossbar]

Civil service power in govt.

As I said, it can depend on the individual politicians to some extent but the power sits with the senior politicians. SpAds are obviously influential too. CS permanent officers take the 'how high' line.

scenario:

politician has one strongly held view and clear and firm negotiating position

civil servant is aware of the view but adopts a contrary negotiating position

politician becomes aware of contrary negotiating position from civil servant

politician allows civil servant to press ahead with position that it at odds with their own firmly held view

= fantasy

The reality is that the SpAd or politician has a strong word or two with the civil servant and they get back on message or move on

[Misnomer]

frearsghost, on 21 November 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

I thought our conversation was over for the time being Chris but it seems once you get a grip of something, you don't let you go. My post was in reply to 'dart in the crossbar' on the topic of civil service power in government

Although I gave him the referendum negotiations as an example of the power of the civil service over government, remove the example and you're still left with the veracity of the reality. You have two options and I'm trying to be kind here. You can either ignore or mock the reality or, treat it as a learning curve and further your understanding because those who engage in discussing something they have no knowledge of will always be on the periphery of the debate or run the risk of being peremptorily dismissed by those who have had wiser council and experience, an embarrassing position in which to find oneself.

We need to give our interaction a break because I beginning to feel I'm fending off a troll, so I won't be replying again for a period of time. BTW, I've given you a green in sheer admiration of your plucky fortitude in serving the forces that seek to surrender our country. Just to show you there's no hard feelings!

And you'd share a meal with this bloke, because you can indulge in a spot of political jousting, occasionally extend your vocabulary, and stroke each other's egos?

He's a typical Tory; constantly rubbishing factual arguments, spinning untruths, underhanded character slights, superiority complex, patronising quips, platitudes and clichés aplenty, avoiding answering legitimate questions and takes his ball home when he knows he's lost the debate.

I'd rather eat my cat's faeces

[Mr Mercury]

Misnomer, on 25 November 2018 - 08:10 AM, said:

And you'd share a meal with this bloke, because you can indulge in a spot of political jousting, occasionally extend your vocabulary, and stroke each other's egos?

He's a typical Tory; constantly rubbishing factual arguments, spinning untruths, underhanded character slights, superiority complex, patronising quips, platitudes and clichés aplenty, avoiding answering legitimate questions and takes his ball home when he knows he's lost the debate.

I'd rather eat my cat's faeces

I just want to leave

This post has been edited by Mr Mercury: 25 November 2018 - 08:44 AM

[dart in the crossbar]

is that 'leave' the current version of the common market or Northern Ireland to fall back into the troubles or Gibraltar on their own or whatever those who cling onto power make up next in your name?

I don't recall talk of any of leaving these things when the country voted in the referendum.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

The only way forward is another vote.

And I wouldn't call it the 'People's Vote', I'd call it the 'Informed Vote'.

Y'know, now what both sides said has been exposed to reality.

Infact as Reece-Mogg's mob are so keen for the Tory Party to change it's mind only two years after electing Teresa May, why can't the country change it's mind two years after voting Brexit?