[The Earl of Chesterfield]

SpireiteFitzy, on 15 November 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

Sitting here and watching the Tory party implode is quite satisfying.

Inevitable.

They've been at civil war since the nineties, one that did for both Major and Cameron and will now do for May. And there's no way of reconciling it either, as swivel-eyed back-benchers demand we leave Europe no matter the cost.

As you say it's quite hilarious - until you realise they're driving the entire country over a cliff with them!

[frearsghost]

MDCCCLXVI, on 15 November 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

Inevitable.

They've been at civil war since the nineties, one that did for both Major and Cameron and will now do for May. And there's no way of reconciling it either, as swivel-eyed back-benchers demand we leave Europe no matter the cost.

As you say it's quite hilarious - until you realise they're driving the entire country over a cliff with them!

Am I swivel eyed as well Chris?

What is it you hate about being able to elect and dismiss a sovereign government that governs every aspect of our country? I'll make even easier for you.

Tell us what it is that you like about being ruled by an unelected foreign government you don't vote for and can never get rid off.

Some things you write I find quite shocking. You mocked, 'the will of the people.' Anti-democratic sentiments like these need to be challenged and defeated because they threaten the very principles of faith and trust in the franchise and voting confidence.

Oh, and please stop regurgitating project fear fiction fabricated by your pro-EU establishment friends like Lord Adonis. Real economists take them with a pinch of salt because it is a fact every one of them has been proven wrong

I read your pro-EU post above. Do you download these like students download essays? With all it's lack of veracity, it might just as well have been written in water.


Take Care.

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 15 November 2018 - 06:50 PM

[turrhall]

AllTownArentWe, on 15 November 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

If you want a lesson in scare tactics just look at the remain campaign.

Fancy expanding on that? Or addressing my point?

This post has been edited by turrhall: 15 November 2018 - 05:58 PM

[Search & Destroy]

turrhall, on 15 November 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

Fancy expanding on that? Or addressing my point?

War?
Punishment Budget?
Back of the queue for a US trade deal?

This post has been edited by Search and Destroy: 15 November 2018 - 06:35 PM

[turrhall]

Search and Destroy, on 15 November 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:

War?
Punishment Budget?
Back of the queue for a US trade deal?

No then

[AllTownArentWe]

turrhall, on 15 November 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

Fancy expanding on that? Or addressing my point?

Unfounded threats of recession, hundreds of thousands of job losses, increased terror attacks and overstating the threat of Russia, destroying the economy etc. Some have dubbed it project fear.

Some of these threats were made just on a vote to leave, not actually leaving as well. The remain campaign is full of dishonest people who then complain about the leave campaign. Pathetic.

[AllTownArentWe]

turrhall, on 15 November 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

"Turkey is imminently joining the EU" is a scare tactics and far right dog whistle.

The time frame people said Turkey could be joining the EU was always years, if not decades. Turkey really wants to join the EU and as the people at the top of the European project dream of expansion the question of Turkey will come up time and time again. The fact of the matter is it's not that important if Turkey join or not in the coming years, because less developed countries have already joined so undercutting of some countries work forces started years ago.

When our countries minimum wage is much higher than what some of the less developed countries offer, then it's no surprise unskilled workers come here to earn more. Lots of Polish workers come here to work and then send money back home. Poland has had massive issues with the lower end of its work force leaving the country.

[Search & Destroy]

turrhall, on 15 November 2018 - 07:00 PM, said:

No then

What are you on about

[turrhall]

AllTownArentWe, on 15 November 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

The time frame people said Turkey could be joining the EU was always years, if not decades. Turkey really wants to join the EU and as the people at the top of the European project dream of expansion the question of Turkey will come up time and time again. The fact of the matter is it's not that important if Turkey join or not in the coming years, because less developed countries have already joined so undercutting of some countries work forces started years ago.

When our countries minimum wage is much higher than what some of the less developed countries offer, then it's no surprise unskilled workers come here to earn more. Lots of Polish workers come here to work and then send money back home. Poland has had massive issues with the lower end of its work force leaving the country.

Turkey does not really want to join the EU. It's almost like you didn't read a word of what I wrote.

Haven't Polish migration to the UK dropped massively at this point?

Search and Destroy, on 15 November 2018 - 07:30 PM, said:

What are you on about

Those aren't 'Project Fear' issues or anything to do with my points about Turkey.

[AllTownArentWe]

turrhall, on 15 November 2018 - 07:39 PM, said:

Turkey does not really want to join the EU. It's almost like you didn't read a word of what I wrote.

I prefer getting my information from actual credible sources instead of reading what you write and taking it as gospel.

[Search & Destroy]

turrhall, on 15 November 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

Turkey does not really want to join the EU. It's almost like you didn't read a word of what I wrote.

Haven't Polish migration to the UK dropped massively at this point?



Those aren't 'Project Fear' issues or anything to do with my points about Turkey.

How can you say that

Osbourne said there would be a budget the day after a leave vote

Cameron warned of war

Obama with Cameron by his side said we’d be at the back of the queue

How’s that not PF?

[turrhall]

Haha, that's fair enough. @AllTownArentWe

This post has been edited by turrhall: 15 November 2018 - 07:48 PM

[turrhall]

Search and Destroy, on 15 November 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

How can you say that

Osbourne said there would be a budget the day after a leave vote

Cameron warned of war

Obama with Cameron by his side said we’d be at the back of the queue

How’s that not PF?

I don't remember the war claim tbf, that's on me. It doesn't look like we're exactly at the front of the queue for a US trade deal currently though does it?

[AllTownArentWe]

Search and Destroy, on 15 November 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

How can you say that

Osbourne said there would be a budget the day after a leave vote

Cameron warned of war

Obama with Cameron by his side said we’d be at the back of the queue

How’s that not PF?

Also do you remember when the bank of England said there would be a recession just because of a vote to leave? Madness.

[frearsghost]

MDCCCLXVI, on 15 November 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

Inevitable.

They've been at civil war since the nineties, one that did for both Major and Cameron and will now do for May. And there's no way of reconciling it either, as swivel-eyed back-benchers demand we leave Europe no matter the cost.

As you say it's quite hilarious - until you realise they're driving the entire country over a cliff with them!

Why would you want to laugh at decent people who have followed their consciences and resigned their jobs on principle, over something they seriously believe is a betrayal of their country?

[Siberian Spireite]

AllTownArentWe, on 14 November 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

The basic fact is that the EU is not the same organisation the UK joined in 1975. It joined the then common market to create better trade ties with the other developed countries in Europe and to make it easier for labour to move around between the highest developed countries in Europe, not the newer and much less developed members like Romania and Poland. Also, Turkey may join in the next few decades which would be a complete disaster. That organisation developed into a huge organisation that isn't solely about trade anymore, it's about interfering with individual democracy's, it's about overruling individual countries courts in favour of their own, it's about pushing their single far left agenda onto these countries that a lot of people do not want at all as the top brass in the EU chase their dream of becoming a mega state with their flag, their anthem, and their charade of a parliament.

You complain about the right wing media, and then link the Guardian which is a completely biased left wing organisation. Nice.

Firstly, normal people can be massively effected by EU laws and regulations. The EU took away a large amount of the UKs fishing waters which massively hit fishing towns. Secondly, the cheaper labour from EU countries like Poland and Romania undercut the British workforce which the UK cannot control because of freedom of movement which is mandatory for all member states.

Lastly suggesting that leaving the EU is political and economic suicide is laughable and a childish suggestion. There are many benefits of leaving, and by the way the UK economy did exist before 1975. The mentality of some remainers who think that this country is a pathetic fat lump of lard that is garbage at everything is offensive and wrong. The UK has, can, and will hold its own without the EU looking over its shoulder all the time. The fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Europe don't want a huge mega state, they want their own individual countries that trade and co-operate with each other in a sensible and measured capacity, that's why anti EU parties are surging in the poles in lots of different member states and the left wing media constantly call anti-EU parties far right to discourage them when in fact they are just parties that hold views that ordinary people in that country hold.

People knew what they were voting for, they voted for it, and now the result of that vote should be upheld. If you want a referendum, then you should wait 40 years to do that like the people who were against joining the common market in 1975 had to do.

The next few years of instability will seem small compared to the decades of prosperity to come.

I will repeat it again. LEAVING THE EU IS NOT SOLELY A LEFT OR RIGHT ISSUE!

Your lengthy and considered post before this one was much better than this one.

[spireiterob]

frearsghost, on 15 November 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

Why would you want to laugh at decent people who have followed their consciences and resigned their jobs on principle, over something they seriously believe is a betrayal of their country?

Can't quite work out whether you are being serious or not.

The principled Dominic Raab, who resigned over the deal he presided over? Who didn't even realise that the Dover - Calais route was so important to our trade!

The principled Boris Johnson, campaigned to boost his career, promised impossible fantasy promises, never expected leave to win - and then ran away as soon as it did!

The principled 'Hard Brexiteer' David Davis, who did the precise sum of diddly squat and now sits sniping on the sidelines?

'Hard Brexiteer' Rees Mogg - so patriotic and principled he has moved his business to Ireland? https://www.independ...n-a8398041.html

'Hard Brexiteer' John Redwood - so patriotic and principled he advised investors to take their money out the UK? https://www.forbes.c...k/#71da4f714c1e

I admire May on this occasion for attempting to make the best of an impossible situation. She has been left in the lurch by the very people who say the most but do very little. And resign to boost their own personal profile.

It has been roundly agreed by many that the deal is damaged limitation, not as good economically for the UK as staying in the EU, but limits the harsh negative economic impact that No deal would give us. Of course not much would satisfy the bizarre No Deal Fantasists, but at least still has a modicum of sensible economics around trade etc which she had to put the country first in that sense and not play into their hands. Fair play to her.

This post has been edited by spireiterob: 16 November 2018 - 01:34 PM

[AllTownArentWe]

spireiterob, on 16 November 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

The principled 'Hard Brexiteer' David Davis, who did the precise sum of diddly squat and now sits sniping on the sidelines?

Harsh on David Davis. It's been made clear that Downing Street tied his hands on the matter when he was in government.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

frearsghost, on 15 November 2018 - 05:52 PM, said:

Am I swivel eyed as well Chris?

What is it you hate about being able to elect and dismiss a sovereign government that governs every aspect of our country? I'll make even easier for you.

Tell us what it is that you like about being ruled by an unelected foreign government you don't vote for and can never get rid off.

Some things you write I find quite shocking. You mocked, 'the will of the people.' Anti-democratic sentiments like these need to be challenged and defeated because they threaten the very principles of faith and trust in the franchise and voting confidence.

Oh, and please stop regurgitating project fear fiction fabricated by your pro-EU establishment friends like Lord Adonis. Real economists take them with a pinch of salt because it is a fact every one of them has been proven wrong

I read your pro-EU post above. Do you download these like students download essays? With all it's lack of veracity, it might just as well have been written in water.


Take Care.

No, I don't think you're swivel-eyed, John.

But I do think you're much better than this.

You've failed to address any of the points in the original article or my reply to 'AllTownAren'tWe'.

Who, alongside 'S&D', did at least respond to my request for examples.

Infact your final, rather insulting sentence alongside accusing me of 'Project Fear' (really? Me regurgitating? From someone levelling that tired old taunt?) is all too similar to what I've spent the last twenty four hours listening to (although that might easily be twenty four months) from Brexiteers with no answers to 'Remoaner' facts.

Come on my friend, there's no need for this kinda stuff between you and I. Especially as you must be the only person who sees me as in any way 'Establishment' orientated. As opposed to the multi-millionaires funding and profiting from Brexit, of course.

And I haven't mocked the 'will of the people' - I've mocked those using it as some card to trump realty.

Do you know what 'the will of the people' is? I certainly don't. Largely because the vote was binary - either remain or leave. Nothing about a Teresa May Brexit, nothing about a Reece-Mogg Brexit, nothing about a Corbyn Brexit, and nothing, absolutely nothing about a no deal Brexit. The very thing those now advocating it so often dubbed scaremongering.

Indeed I'm more than happy to see what the 'will of the people' is now virtually every promise, every assurance and every claim made by those advocating Brexit has come crashing down around them.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

frearsghost, on 15 November 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

Why would you want to laugh at decent people who have followed their consciences and resigned their jobs on principle, over something they seriously believe is a betrayal of their country?

I think our friend 'Spireiterob' more than adequately dealt with this question, John.

Look; we've heard a lot about adopting the 'Canada' deal, or the Norway deal, or the Iceland or Swiss deal. But hold on - Margaret Thatcher and subsequent PM's negotiated a bespoke British deal that saw us enjoy all the EU's benefits yet kept us outside Shengen and the Euro.

However that wasn't good enough for some.

Problem is two and a half years after the vote not a single one of 'em can come up with anything better. Infact Farage is still sniping from the sidelines whilst happily accepting his MEP salary, Davies and Raab had their chance but blew it, all Johnson will be remembered for as Foreign Secretary is making Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe's situation worse and Gove has just ducked his opportunity to implement whatever version of Brexit he spent so long campaigning for.

Probably because he has as much clue how to deal with, say, the Irish border issue as everyone else that stood on a platform plucking promises from thin air.

PS: if those that've quit are somehow principled and moral, what does it say about those that haven't?

This post has been edited by MDCCCLXVI: 16 November 2018 - 04:26 PM