Bob's Board - Chesterfield FC: European Super League - Bob's Board - Chesterfield FC

Jump to content

  • (9 Pages)
  • +
  • « First
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

European Super League

#141 User is offline   frearsghost 

  • First Team Player
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,741
  • Joined: 28-June 05
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 April 2021 - 08:43 AM

View Post60s 70s Spireite, on 21 April 2021 - 07:54 AM, said:

That goose is in the bin, but you can be sure the big clubs, and their billionaire owners will be working on another plan to receive a bigger share of the pot.


I think you're right. This has not gone away. These clubs have realised they don't need a domestic fan base and there are millions to be made from a world wide TV subscription model. The America owners will be back. Note how Man Utd have parted company with the ESL with a parting message along the lines of, they will continue to explore future developments for the good of the game which, in plain speak, means to further develop our personal wealth. But the contempt for the fans has been the most deplorable aspect. That is now set in stone. These six clubs - or rather their owners - need watching.



1

#142 User is offline   calvin plummers socks 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 18,237
  • Joined: 29-April 10

Posted 21 April 2021 - 09:10 AM

How can these business men- highly successful, wealthy, intelligent business men get it so wrong?
The biggest cock up in the history of the game (barr Elleeray)

Mistakes so huge it makes any bad decision by any referee or manager so minuscule
0

#143 User is offline   dim view 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 22,102
  • Joined: 09-June 05
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 April 2021 - 09:23 AM

View Postcalvin plummers socks, on 21 April 2021 - 09:10 AM, said:

How can these business men- highly successful, wealthy, intelligent business men get it so wrong?
The biggest cock up in the history of the game (barr Elleeray)

Mistakes so huge it makes any bad decision by any referee or manager so minuscule

It's a plot.
This was an opening gambit. They haven't got it wrong.

How long will it take Liverpool fans to embrace the Owner's apology? Till about lunchtime today,



Q: Have you had any issues with the season ticket waiting list?

A: Claire, who it states under her name is RAWK staff, said: "I joined it in 2004 and I’m 22,233rd. Worked out a while ago on here that I should've been something like 6000 before the new main stand ones were given theirs, so about 4000-5000ish is where I should be, but I've asked and they didn't even answer.

"I don't know if there's any record or anything on their side of when I joined, it was when I got my old fan card that I know I signed up for when buying tickets for Monaco CL group game! Someone on here said if you've got the confirmation letter of you joining they can adjust it but I don't know where that is."

Red_Mark1980 shared a similar experience and wrote to say he was in a position of more than 19,000 despite originally getting on the list in 2003 which he said was "lost when LFC asked for the Ł5" list retainer.

Kwalitee, no added: "Went on in '04 and am now just under 17,940. I've got a mate who put his daughter on she's only 10 and she's higher up the list than I am".

READ MORE
Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
0

#144 User is online   JonB 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 29,818
  • Joined: 22-February 06

Posted 21 April 2021 - 09:37 AM

View Postdim view, on 21 April 2021 - 09:23 AM, said:

How long will it take Liverpool fans to embrace the Owner's apology? Till about lunchtime today,

There will be some that probably do and they will probably be the ones that showed some fake anger, never been to Anfield and the only time they watch a game not in their armchair is to watch it in the pub whilst dressed like they've fallen into the club shop window. However i think that, and will be the same for most clubs, there will be a lot that wont accept apologies and will want further answers as to where things stand and what future plans are. They wont trust owners going forward for a long time but it will have shown these owners the backlash they can expect going forward if something happens again.

They will have been expecting some upset, i dont think they expected the levels it reached hence why the English clubs have backtracked so quickly. I dont think they expected how it would unite all sorts in opposition against it.
0

#145 User is offline   dim view 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 22,102
  • Joined: 09-June 05
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 April 2021 - 09:39 AM

View PostJonB, on 21 April 2021 - 09:37 AM, said:

There will be some that probably do and they will probably be the ones that showed some fake anger, never been to Anfield and the only time they watch a game not in their armchair is to watch it in the pub whilst dressed like they've fallen into the club shop window. However i think that, and will be the same for most clubs, there will be a lot that wont accept apologies and will want further answers as to where things stand and what future plans are. They wont trust owners going forward for a long time but it will have shown these owners the backlash they can expect going forward if something happens again.

They will have been expecting some upset, i dont think they expected the levels it reached hence why the English clubs have backtracked so quickly. I dont think they expected how it would unite all sorts in opposition against it.

So what do you think the first measurable change that appeases these fans will be?
Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
0

#146 User is online   JonB 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 29,818
  • Joined: 22-February 06

Posted 21 April 2021 - 09:48 AM

View Postdim view, on 21 April 2021 - 09:39 AM, said:

So what do you think the first measurable change that appeases these fans will be?

Not sure i can speak for them but there will be some that wont trust them again and will only be happy if they sell up and leave. For some they will probably accept them being more open about big decisions like this rather than being secretive about them and dumping them out on a Sunday evening and leaving the players and manager in the firing line despite knowing nothing about it.

The whole backlash to this announcement seems different to other stuff that has happened in the past, there has been disquiet from some about things in the past at clubs or with changes to suit bigger clubs and Europe but nothing has got close to the backlash this plan got.
0

#147 User is offline   howardb 

  • Reserve Team Player
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 550
  • Joined: 13-June 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chesterfield

Posted 21 April 2021 - 04:10 PM

Mistakes so huge it makes any bad decision by any referee or manager so minuscule

Very perceptive article in today's paper - 100% agree - so much is still wrong with the structure and governance yet yesterday is now being treated as a major victory



Uefa and Fifa’s hypocrisy is astonishing – their greed ruined this game long ago
The Super League plans may be crumbling but the basic concept will re-emerge in another form soon enough, writes Matthew Syed
Matthew Syed
Wednesday April 21 2021, 12.01am, The Times

One day, a comedy sketch will be written about the hysterical response to proposals for the now doomed European Super League. I was against the concept, by the way, and think there were always overwhelming objections. I certainly wasn’t surprised when Chelsea belatedly withdrew, triggering the defections of all the English clubs.

But listening to Aleksander Ceferin, the Uefa president, thundering about “greed”, Gianni Infantino, his Fifa counterpart, citing “self-interest” and former players wailing on Sky Sports about an assault on football as a “community asset”, I couldn’t help but giggle. When we look back on this incident in months and years to come, we will marvel at mankind’s capacity for hypocrisy.

I mean, what planet have the critics been on? This proposal was never a watershed so much as a continuation of a trend that many have actively contributed to. The Premier League severed the umbilical link with the rest of the game in 1992, the covert demise of Rule 34 turned clubs from community assets into profit-making companies, while the introduction of the Champions League and its various “innovations” have obliterated the notion that any club can dream of making it to the top.

Did these critics not notice that the financial distribution of the Champions League favoured lavish payments to top clubs over solidarity payments to the rest of the game? Did they miss that the financial fair play proposals in 2011 were so nobbled that they handed yet more commercial advantages to the elite? Did they not notice that the Premier League abolished the founding distribution model in 2018, with foreign-rights income now disproportionately paid to clubs who already enjoy cash from Europe?

Did they not notice that Uefa altered their own formula less than three years ago, with higher win bonuses and new “heritage payments” based on performances over the past ten years, thus handing yet more to the giants? Did they not see that the proportion allotted to solidarity payments had declined again? And, more generally, did they not notice that many of the greatest clubs have become the playthings of dubious oligarchs, the projects of billionaire capitalists and the strategic assets of Arab microstates?


Oh, and didn’t they notice how European domestic leagues have become increasingly unbalanced, notwithstanding the occasional Leicester City fairytale? An analysis in 2020 by Miguel Delaney of The Independent revealed that in the past decade, there has been a first German treble, a first Italian treble, a first English domestic treble, three French domestic trebles in four years, a first European Cup three-in-a-row in 42 years, the first 100-point seasons in Spain, Italy and England, and “Invincible” seasons in Italy, Portugal, Scotland and seven other European leagues. Pundits talk about how the ESL would have ruined competitive balance — but what balance?

Perhaps we might also look at the words of Infantino when he rails against the scourge of “self-interest”. The boss of Fifa is under criminal investigation for his role in the corruption scandal being undertaken by Swiss prosecutors. He was implicated in the Panama Papers and was found to have billed Fifa for personal expenses such as Ł8,795 for mattresses at his home, Ł6,829 for a stepper exercise machine, Ł1,086 for a tuxedo, Ł677 on flowers and Ł132 on personal laundry. He says, in all cases, that he has done nothing wrong, but we can safely say, nonetheless, that he heads the most corrupt governing body in the history of sport.


Although perhaps that description is unfair to Uefa, the other body vying for that dubious title. You might remember that Michel Platini, their previous president, was banned from football from accepting a $2 million bung from, you guessed it, Sepp Blatter, and whose appeals were rejected by the courts. A man who plumped for the corrupt Qatar 2022 bid, despite objections from almost every neutral observer; a vote that coincided with Qatar pouring money into France’s top club (Paris Saint-Germain) and his son securing a lucrative job at Burrda Sport, a clothing company owned by Qataris.

When these guys talk about “greed”, what they mean, I think, is they object to greed that cuts them out of the pie. When they condemn “financial self-interest”, they are condemning lucrative decisions over which they have no control and can therefore gain no benefits. When they talk about the “betrayal” of football, what they mean is that it is reprehensible that these putative betrayals were being perpetrated by the owners of the clubs. I mean, isn’t this the traditional preserve of governing bodies?

In truth, many within football have been on the gravy train for years. Top players have gained vast wealth, their agents have become multi-millionaires, TV companies have ballooned in equity value, presenters have enjoyed lucrative contracts, governing bodies have gained kickbacks and governments have secured tax revenue. This proposal was not about changing the underlying value system of football but tweaking its beneficiaries and controllers. This is perhaps why the outrage was so frenzied. It amounted to a howl of “how dare you siphon off money from this great sport! That’s our job!”

To be clear, I was profoundly against the Super League proposals. It would have made the game even more unbalanced, created a closed shop, and undermined community values that still have meaning to millions of fans. But even on the subject of fans, don’t we need to state a few home truths here, too? Most Chelsea supporters were ecstatic about the millions of Roman Abramovich rolling into the club. City fans loved the glory bankrolled by a Sunni monarchy with a dubious human-rights record.


So, let’s not be naive about all this. Let’s not delude ourselves. Let’s not pretend that we haven’t played along when things were going our way.

The Super League has been arriving by stealth and increment for years, with football reshaped in ways that have disenfranchised most fans while being welcomed by many of the insiders who are now screaming blue murder.

And this is why it is likely that the ESL proposal will re-emerge in amended form soon enough — if not with razzmatazz and controversy, then via a more slippery process with the governing bodies onside.

For isn’t this what sport has become in a globalised age? And I, for one, don’t see any obvious appetite for change from those who run the game.
1

#148 User is offline   Bobby Darling 

  • First Team Player
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2,151
  • Joined: 07-July 09

Posted 21 April 2021 - 05:00 PM

View Postfrearsghost, on 21 April 2021 - 08:43 AM, said:

I think you're right. This has not gone away. These clubs have realised they don't need a domestic fan base and there are millions to be made from a world wide TV subscription model. The America owners will be back. Note how Man Utd have parted company with the ESL with a parting message along the lines of, they will continue to explore future developments for the good of the game which, in plain speak, means to further develop our personal wealth. But the contempt for the fans has been the most deplorable aspect. That is now set in stone. These six clubs - or rather their owners - need watching.

As do the owners of some other Premier League Clubs who are pushing for no relegation. It's all relative. Are the Glaziers any greedier than Gold and Sullivan? Or Mike Ashley? I'm being unfair in singling them out because I lose track of the foreign owners of most other clubs.
0

#149 User is offline   dazcarrlegend 

  • Reserve Team Player
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 616
  • Joined: 10-June 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bristol

Posted 21 April 2021 - 08:31 PM

[quote name='howardb' timestamp='1619021402' post='1576490']
Mistakes so huge it makes any bad decision by any referee or manager so minuscule

Very perceptive article in today's paper - 100% agree - so much is still wrong with the structure and governance yet yesterday is now being treated as a major victory



Uefa and Fifa’s hypocrisy is astonishing – their greed ruined this game long ago
The Super League plans may be crumbling but the basic concept will re-emerge in another form soon enough, writes Matthew Syed
Matthew Syed
Wednesday April 21 2021, 12.01am, The Times




What is incredible is how many football fans fall for it. People protesting in the streets about it like a bunch of lemmings, all spurred on by what they are fed by the media, who just happen to be owned by one of the major beneficiaries of the status quo.

It is an absolute lesson in pr from the premier league, but it makes me wonder how the perpetrators of the proposed change ever felt they could force the change through

This post has been edited by dazcarrlegend: 21 April 2021 - 08:31 PM

0

#150 User is offline   Bankrobber 

  • 83 goals
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5,763
  • Joined: 06-June 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rawcliffe, East Yorkshire
  • Interests:Arctic Sheets and Fields of Wheat

Posted 22 April 2021 - 11:46 AM

The government led review can't come soon enough. Whether it has the desired impact is another matter.

We can speculate how some of the measures like the 51% rule might affect us, were they to be introduced? Might our status as owned by the Community Trust already count as satisfaction of that?
The greatest miscarriage of justice since my case against the producers of the Never Ending Story
0

#151 User is online   JonB 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 29,818
  • Joined: 22-February 06

Posted 22 April 2021 - 11:56 AM

View PostBankrobber, on 22 April 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

The government led review can't come soon enough. Whether it has the desired impact is another matter.

We can speculate how some of the measures like the 51% rule might affect us, were they to be introduced? Might our status as owned by the Community Trust already count as satisfaction of that?

You can see where this 51% rule will go with some of the big clubs....i want a say in my club etc etc then it happens and they they start moaning that the rich minority owners arent stumping up millions for star players.
0

#152 User is online   60s 70s Spireite 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 13,519
  • Joined: 03-November 09

Posted 22 April 2021 - 12:24 PM

View PostBankrobber, on 22 April 2021 - 11:46 AM, said:

The government led review can't come soon enough. Whether it has the desired impact is another matter.

We can speculate how some of the measures like the 51% rule might affect us, were they to be introduced? Might our status as owned by the Community Trust already count as satisfaction of that?

The toothpaste is out of the tube with the 51% rule here. How would the current owners and PLC shareholders be compensated for their investments- and quite rightly and legally they would need to be.
0

#153 User is offline   Bankrobber 

  • 83 goals
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5,763
  • Joined: 06-June 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rawcliffe, East Yorkshire
  • Interests:Arctic Sheets and Fields of Wheat

Posted 22 April 2021 - 12:26 PM

View Post60s 70s Spireite, on 22 April 2021 - 12:24 PM, said:

The toothpaste is out of the tube with the 51% rule here. How would the current owners and PLC shareholders be compensated for their investments- and quite rightly and legally they would need to be.


Wouldn't they just issue more shares?
The greatest miscarriage of justice since my case against the producers of the Never Ending Story
0

#154 User is online   60s 70s Spireite 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 13,519
  • Joined: 03-November 09

Posted 22 April 2021 - 01:34 PM

View PostBankrobber, on 22 April 2021 - 12:26 PM, said:

Wouldn't they just issue more shares?

That would seriously dilute the value of the current majority shareholders interests. So no.
0

#155 User is offline   Siberian Spireite 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 12,127
  • Joined: 28-July 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belper, Centre of the Universe

Posted 22 April 2021 - 01:44 PM

For me the key line of Syed's excellent article (above) is

"When these guys talk about “greed”, what they mean, I think, is they object to greed that cuts them out of the pie."

Carragher and Neville would have been singing a different tune if Sky had been in on the plan.
These go to eleven.
0

#156 User is online   60s 70s Spireite 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 13,519
  • Joined: 03-November 09

Posted 22 April 2021 - 01:51 PM

View PostSiberian Spireite, on 22 April 2021 - 01:44 PM, said:

For me the key line of Syed's excellent article (above) is

"When these guys talk about “greed”, what they mean, I think, is they object to greed that cuts them out of the pie."

Carragher and Neville would have been singing a different tune if Sky had been in on the plan.

Agreed. This has not gone away. I see the Real Madrid President says it’s ‘on standby’. The bigger clubs still want a bigger share of a bigger pie.
0

#157 User is offline   Siberian Spireite 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 12,127
  • Joined: 28-July 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belper, Centre of the Universe

Posted 22 April 2021 - 02:06 PM

View Post60s 70s Spireite, on 22 April 2021 - 01:51 PM, said:

Agreed. This has not gone away. I see the Real Madrid President says it’s ‘on standby’. The bigger clubs still want a bigger share of a bigger pie.

I think that where Real Madrid are concerned, the best option is for them to screen Real Madrid first XI versus Real Madrid second XI on their own direct subscription channel every couple of days, and not worry about the rest of football. Who needs other clubs to compete against? Why bother when you have to share the pie?
These go to eleven.
0

#158 User is offline   sophocles 

  • Key Player
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 8,293
  • Joined: 07-June 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pilsley
  • Interests:Sport, especially football. Theatre, literature, eating, drinking (esp. real ale).

Posted 22 April 2021 - 03:15 PM

Agree with all of this. We have seen joyous celebrations as 'the fans', supposedly claim 'their' clubs back. Unfortunately, as both John Barnes and Simon Jordan have pointed out on air, thise 'top' clubs do NOT belong to the fans, they belong to their billionaire owners, and will continue to do so until 'the fans' stump up enough millions of pounds to buy them out. To put it mildly, that is unlikely to happen, so the intention of owners to achieve a business model which will ensure they can't lose, will remain. The truth is that the astronomical cost of running an 'elite' football club with the obscene level of players' wages, has long ago far outstripped the ability of fans to service it by buying tickets, merchandise etc. The owners cannot just back out and leave clubs to fans, because the enormous costs have to be met, and somebody has to have the financial clout and the desire, to buy them out. This has a very long way to run, and it will take a lot of time (and pain), to resolve.
0

#159 User is offline   dim view 

  • Legend
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 22,102
  • Joined: 09-June 05
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 April 2021 - 08:52 PM

View Postsophocles, on 22 April 2021 - 03:15 PM, said:

Agree with all of this. We have seen joyous celebrations as 'the fans', supposedly claim 'their' clubs back. Unfortunately, as both John Barnes and Simon Jordan have pointed out on air, thise 'top' clubs do NOT belong to the fans, they belong to their billionaire owners, and will continue to do so until 'the fans' stump up enough millions of pounds to buy them out. To put it mildly, that is unlikely to happen, so the intention of owners to achieve a business model which will ensure they can't lose, will remain. The truth is that the astronomical cost of running an 'elite' football club with the obscene level of players' wages, has long ago far outstripped the ability of fans to service it by buying tickets, merchandise etc. The owners cannot just back out and leave clubs to fans, because the enormous costs have to be met, and somebody has to have the financial clout and the desire, to buy them out. This has a very long way to run, and it will take a lot of time (and pain), to resolve.

You are spot on but Pep say it's a 'closed chapter'. By that I think he thinks that nowt will change.
Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
0

#160 User is offline   sophocles 

  • Key Player
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 8,293
  • Joined: 07-June 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pilsley
  • Interests:Sport, especially football. Theatre, literature, eating, drinking (esp. real ale).

Posted 22 April 2021 - 10:38 PM

View Postdim view, on 22 April 2021 - 08:52 PM, said:

You are spot on but Pep say it's a 'closed chapter'. By that I think he thinks that nowt will change.

What he doesn't say though, is that most books have more than one chapter.
0

Share this topic:


  • (9 Pages)
  • +
  • « First
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users