[mr. smith]

Mr Mercury, on 22 October 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

Labour are no longer a long term issue. At the moment the parlimentery party are a dog running after the wheels of a moving car, trying to nip and snap at the driver and whilst attempting to alter the course all they can do is aggravate it.
They are finished as a major political force for years to come, Corbyn and his London elitiests closely observed by the sinister Momentum group have seen to that. The next election will decimate them in their North Midlands and Northern heartlands, it's back to the early 80's and their years wandering in the post Foot wilderness, and it could all so easily have been avoided but once again Labour has become dogged in extremism and it forgets where it's real roots lies.
Can any genuine Labour supporter tell me they'll win the next election?

they could quite possibly win the next eklection though it would prob be a minority govt (as would the tories if they win)as that's where we are as a country.
vote blue merc, youre working up to it.

[mr. smith]

DEATH, on 22 October 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

SMIG





Nothing wrong with wanting time to digest the deal, my concern would be a raft of amendments that then turn the deal into something completely different, which would then require re negotiations with the EU and so on and so on. Any reason or excuse to not implement the result of the referendum. Delay it, block it, change it, stop it. Labour had a manifesto pledge to implement it. They now, via Thornberry
, say they want to revolt article 50.








Putting them in the “ Bolsover question”










If you have got a majority for a deal, then there shouldn’t be the need for amendments and the process to be dragged on and on. Either vote for the deal, or debate a different option. They have done this, they have had managed many votes, amendments have been tabled and rejected over months. This is the first deal that actually got through, so flipping well get it through. There isn’t any reason now to keep dragging this **** on and on and on.

you cant expect them to implement it without having time to go over it in detail.
if the govt are happy with it & its passed its first hurdle surely it will pass all the rest.
johnsons solution is childlike & trumpesque.

labours policy is a confirmatory vote for either a deal or remain not revoking article 50.

[Mr Mercury]

mr. smith, on 23 October 2019 - 06:35 AM, said:

they could quite possibly win the next eklection though it would prob be a minority govt (as would the tories if they win)as that's where we are as a country.
vote blue merc, youre working up to it.

There's not a cat in hells chance they be the majority party at the next election.

[mr. smith]

Mr Mercury, on 23 October 2019 - 07:00 AM, said:

There's not a cat in hells chance they be the majority party at the next election.

I did say itd prob be a minority govt whoever won the election.
strangely brexit problems could work in their fav as the next election will be dominated by it. tories will run on a no deal policy to stifle farage & his crowd of nutjobs, libs will run on a revoke policy leaving labour to appear the 'sensible' option of compromise & appealing to both sides.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 22 October 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

Labour are no longer a long term issue. At the moment the parlimentery party are a dog running after the wheels of a moving car, trying to nip and snap at the driver and whilst attempting to alter the course all they can do is aggravate it.
They are finished as a major political force for years to come, Corbyn and his London elitiests closely observed by the sinister Momentum group have seen to that. The next election will decimate them in their North Midlands and Northern heartlands, it's back to the early 80's and their years wandering in the post Foot wilderness, and it could all so easily have been avoided but once again Labour has become dogged in extremism and it forgets where it's real roots lies.
Can any genuine Labour supporter tell me they'll win the next election?

I won't accuse you of being taken in by the right wing press 'Mr M', but talk of a Labour Party dominated by some metropolitan extremist elite and/or Momentum is just plain wrong.

The Chesterfield CLP is run by pretty much the same people who've run it for years, not a single one of them Londoners as far as I know. Okay, there's been an influx of younger, often more motivated members, yet there's certainly no sign of Momentum or any other supposedly sinister organisation at meetings.

Contrast that with a Tory Party infiltrated by the UKIP/ERG right - to the point of twenty plus of their MP's being expelled and others facing re-selection for not being Brextreme enough (the very un-Momentum Toby Perkins recently received a unanimous vote of confidence from my local ward, by the way). Whose membership has also proven to be largely Islamophobic and prepared to chuck both Scotland and Ulster under a bus. A big red one with lies written upon it.

That said I'd sack Corbyn tomorrow. For the very simple reason of being inept. And amateur. And twenty points behind the most morally bankrupt - not to mention equally incompetent - Tory Leader in history. That's including Thatcher, too. He's like a football manager who suffers defeat after defeat and relegation after relegation but still won't quit.

It's a devastating indictment on British politics that the only choice we're facing is between con-men, charlatans, liars, hypocrites and buffoons...

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 October 2019 - 05:22 PM, said:

I won't accuse you of being taken in by the right wing press 'Mr M', but talk of a Labour Party dominated by some metropolitan extremist elite and/or Momentum is just plain wrong.

The Chesterfield CLP is run by pretty much the same people who've run it for years, not a single one of them Londoners as far as I know. Okay, there's been an influx of younger, often more motivated members, yet there's certainly no sign of Momentum or any other supposedly sinister organisation at meetings.

Contrast that with a Tory Party infiltrated by the UKIP/ERG right - to the point of twenty plus of their MP's being expelled and others facing re-selection for not being Brextreme enough (the very un-Momentum Toby Perkins recently received a unanimous vote of confidence from my local ward, by the way). Whose membership has also proven to be largely Islamophobic and prepared to chuck both Scotland and Ulster under a bus. A big red one with lies written upon it.

That said I'd sack Corbyn tomorrow. For the very simple reason of being inept. And amateur. And twenty points behind the most morally bankrupt - not to mention equally incompetent - Tory Leader in history. That's including Thatcher, too. He's like a football manager who suffers defeat after defeat and relegation after relegation but still won't quit.

It's a devastating indictment on British politics that the only choice we're facing is between con-men, charlatans, liars, hypocrites and buffoons...

I don't really mean the local parties Chris, but the decision making arm of the party, sadly whichever way you look at it they are facing electoral disaster.

[Wooden Spoon]

mr. smith, on 23 October 2019 - 08:37 AM, said:

<br />I did say itd prob be a minority govt whoever won the election.<br />strangely brexit problems could work in their fav as the next election will be dominated by it. tories will run on a no deal policy to stifle farage &amp; his crowd of nutjobs, libs will run on a revoke policy leaving labour to appear the 'sensible' option of compromise &amp; appealing to both sides.<br />

Rather than appealing to both sides, I think it will appeal to no one.

[Misnomer]

https://metro.co.uk/...p-10886760/amp/

Honestly, how low does it have to go....

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 23 October 2019 - 09:46 PM, said:

I don't really mean the local parties Chris, but the decision making arm of the party, sadly whichever way you look at it they are facing electoral disaster.

Respected pollsters still predict a hung parliament, pal.

And the Labour Party's structured so that local branches ARE the decision makers.

Truth is Labour's last manifesto was hugely popular with the public yet there were just as many dissuaded as persuaded by Corbyn.

The same's still true of many policies, which is why the Tories wanna make the next election all about a triumphant, supposedly Brexit delivering Johnson versus him.

Before the real consequences start to hit home, of course.

Look at it like this, too; who benefits most from a Britain divided along Brexit lines rather than ones of social justice? Than what's best for the many instead of the few? Could it possibly be those same billion/millionaires backing Brexit?

Divide and rule my friend, divide and rule...

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 24 October 2019 - 03:33 PM, said:

Respected pollsters still predict a hung parliament, pal.

And the Labour Party's structured so that local branches ARE the decision makers.

Truth is Labour's last manifesto was hugely popular with the public yet there were just as many dissuaded as persuaded by Corbyn.

The same's still true of many policies, which is why the Tories wanna make the next election all about a triumphant, supposedly Brexit delivering Johnson versus him.

Before the real consequences start to hit home, of course.

Look at it like this, too; who benefits most from a Britain divided along Brexit lines rather than ones of social justice? Than what's best for the many instead of the few? Could it possibly be those same billion/millionaires backing Brexit?

Divide and rule my friend, divide and rule...

With this afternoons news we might all find out sooner rather than later!

[Wooden Spoon]

Misnomer, there’s plenty of scope yet; for mean his poster didn’t even have one World Cup on it. Total amateur

[Search & Destroy]

No way will Corbyn agree to an election, he knows he’d lose, he know Boris would end up with a workable majority and his grip over Brexit would be gone

He’d rather have the chaos that we are enduring at the moment

[Cheshunt Spireite]

The chaos suit Corbyn because it makes the Tories look weak, and everything is about appearances. The problem is Corbyn appears inept so the situation doesn't really help him.

Issues we have with polls is that they are easily biased and mostly based on a national picture, whereas the UK system is based on constituency. Polls that look at constituency are so much harder because swings are so much narrower, and in the current climate I'd say 10-20% of seats are pure guess.

I don't think an election will solve anything. A hung parliament will happen, if the Tories ally with the BP then some Tories will defect causing more issues.

Like it or not, the only way to solve this is a referendum based on what it should have been a vote on in the first place- remain Vs agreed with the EU deal OR no deal. Having 3 options on the ballot paper would continue the chaos.
Even farage and Rees mogg have previously called for confirmation referendums after the first one.

[Phil V 72]

Cheshunt Spireite, on 25 October 2019 - 12:57 PM, said:

The chaos suit Corbyn because it makes the Tories look weak, and everything is about appearances. The problem is Corbyn appears inept so the situation doesn't really help him.

Issues we have with polls is that they are easily biased and mostly based on a national picture, whereas the UK system is based on constituency. Polls that look at constituency are so much harder because swings are so much narrower, and in the current climate I'd say 10-20% of seats are pure guess.

I don't think an election will solve anything. A hung parliament will happen, if the Tories ally with the BP then some Tories will defect causing more issues.

Like it or not, the only way to solve this is a referendum based on what it should have been a vote on in the first place- remain Vs agreed with the EU deal OR no deal. Having 3 options on the ballot paper would continue the chaos.
Even farage and Rees mogg have previously called for confirmation referendums after the first one.

A 2nd referendum will similarly solve nothing, this thing is never going back in its box now. If you think Johnson is bad, wait to see what comes if the original vote is overturned. A Farage like character (or even something like a Tommy Robinson) being given democratic legitimacy. Just like Trump did "vote for me and I will punish your enemies".

As Death said, responsible Politicians should have said 'we will take your instruction and look for a way through, and we believe that compromise is Norway''. Explain to the public why 'revoke' and 'no deal' are not viable options and push the middle ground hard. Take us back to someone like the old common market so we remove the political element of the EU but preserve the trading element.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

The dead cat gambit.

A tactic often used by politicians facing unanswerable questions or embarrassing situations.

They chuck a metaphorical dead cat onto the table and, hey presto, everyone's focussing on the ex feline rather than their woes.

Well that's what Johnson's done with his election posturing.

'Come on Corbyn, man up!'.

'Guts and determination'.

'Zombie parliament'.

Yeah, all great sound-bites but simply designed to distract from reality.

Which is a P(erpetually) M(endacious) who's entire 'Under no circumstances will I apply for an extension/dead in a ditch/do or die' rhetoric has been reduced to a pathetically puerile letter admitting the Halloween Brexit he promised nearly as often as May promised hers' really is a dead line.

Infact for all his playground 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough' posturing he's now relying for some sort of help from the EU, Labour MP's, DUP or a House of Commons he's regularly insulted.

Largely as a result of the 'Five Year Parliament Act' introduced by a Cameron/Clegg partnership to secure their own skins.

So much for 'taking back control'.

And speaking of the House Johnson finally won a vote last night, his Queens Speech being passed. But hold on a minute - didn't he tell Lizzy Windsor he had to prorogue Parliament to secure exactly that? The only way he could introduce a programme of policies? He had absolutely no choice but to do so? Yet all we've since heard is the bloke who's spent a lifetime opposing working people taking strike action advocating his government do exactly that. Really? So what happened to the Miners 'holding the country to ransom'? Rail workers 'holding the country to ransom'? Dockers, bus drivers, pilots, junior doctors or teachers 'holding the country to ransom'?

What happened to all the things a Queens Speech was supposed to solve.

Not only has his conversation with the head of state been exposed as just another lie he's plumbed even deeper depths of petulant hypocrisy.

Boris Johnson has often been accused of having the morals of an alley cat in his personal life. He, his advisors and their allies in the media still portray him as the political 'top cat'. However as he's increasingly forced into a corner by his political opponents - including members of his own party - how long before his time in Number Ten becomes the real dead cat...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 25 October 2019 - 07:20 PM

[Cheshunt Spireite]

Accidental double posting, removed.

This post has been edited by Cheshunt Spireite: 25 October 2019 - 07:52 PM

[isleaiw1]

Chris

You say local parties wield the power. I have a friend who is diary secretary to a long serving labour MP in West Yorkshire. He is seriously concerned about being deselected because he follows Labour policies, not Momentum policies to use his words.

The “labour” party now isn’t that party that supported working class folks of the past. It’s a party that supports left wing ideals, not the working man.

The Momentum party will be destroyed in middle England and will be lucky to come 4th in some constituencies.... To be behind in the polls when the competition is the worst ever government / PM ever is a sign of how badly they are perceived.

Lib Dem’s for me as the party that have been clear, consistent and pretty united in what they stand for.

[SpireiteFitzy]

Watching the debate on an early general election was painful. The house is in such disorder they wouldn't be able to agree on what the colour of a postbox is.

Few things to take away, the SNP don't want Brexit to happen because the Scottish people didn't vote for Brexit and so the referendum should not be respected up in Scotland. But in the same breath they are crying for another Independence referendum when the Scottish people have already voted to stay part of the Union. Yes Brexit has happened since then but the Tories had proposed Brexit back in 2012 so the Scottish people voted to stay even though they knew they run the possibility of leaving with us one day.

Jo Swinson is so arrogant it's unreal. 'We are happy to have a general election so we can take on both major parties and get a majority Lib Dem Government and on day one we will repeal Article 50'. So on your first day of been a democratically elected government you would trample on the democratic decision of 17 and a half million people in a heartbeat. I've fiercely been a remainer since the very start but the only fact that really matters is we are a DEMOCRACY, and democracy means majority rules, doesn't really matter how big or small but majority wins, it's the political system we've adopted for hundreds of years now and one that we keep trying to preach to other areas of the world to adopt, if we ignore it ourselves then everything we've ever said about how bad dictators are and how great democracy is becomes null and void, we show the world that democracy can be overturned and that is not supposed to be the case.

We had our chance to expose the lies, we had our chance to show that Johnson, Farage and Co were coming out with sensationalist headlines to rouse up national feeling even though they had no basis in truth, we had our chance to use reason to see that the correct decision, in my opinion of course, was made. But we failed. It all came out after the referendum when it was too late. The remain campaign as i've said before stooped to the same low grade, name calling tosh that vote leave came out with and that played right into their hands. Instead of putting their time and effort into exposing all the lies they peddled to the people to show them up as the fraudulent crooks they have been shown to be since they were just happy to peddle the whole, 'your narrow minded for not wanting to be inclusive of the EU'.

This country and it's parliament has become an embarrassment and everyone is laughing at us. It's about time parliament put aside all their pathetic squabbles and started showing some leadership because this country is going to need it in the near future when Brexit eventually happens. The only way we can restore our pride is if a deal which has been well thought out, well scrutunised, and protects the union can be agreed and then we power on forward to show that there is life outside of been an EU member.

[mr. smith]

isleaiw1, on 28 October 2019 - 07:08 PM, said:

Chris

You say local parties wield the power. I have a friend who is diary secretary to a long serving labour MP in West Yorkshire. He is seriously concerned about being deselected because he follows Labour policies, not Momentum policies to use his words.

The “labour” party now isn’t that party that supported working class folks of the past. It’s a party that supports left wing ideals, not the working man.

The Momentum party will be destroyed in middle England and will be lucky to come 4th in some constituencies.... To be behind in the polls when the competition is the worst ever government / PM ever is a sign of how badly they are perceived.

Lib Dem’s for me as the party that have been clear, consistent and pretty united in what they stand for.

apart from revoking article 50 (a fairly recent decision) what policies do the lib-dems stand for?

[Mr Mercury]

isleaiw1, on 28 October 2019 - 07:08 PM, said:

Chris

You say local parties wield the power. I have a friend who is diary secretary to a long serving labour MP in West Yorkshire. He is seriously concerned about being deselected because he follows Labour policies, not Momentum policies to use his words.

The “labour” party now isn’t that party that supported working class folks of the past. It’s a party that supports left wing ideals, not the working man.

The Momentum party will be destroyed in middle England and will be lucky to come 4th in some constituencies.... To be behind in the polls when the competition is the worst ever government / PM ever is a sign of how badly they are perceived.

Lib Dem’s for me as the party that have been clear, consistent and pretty united in what they stand for.

Exactly has I see it regarding Labour.