[Radders]

Town_Fan, on 05 February 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

Suicide is the very definition of selfish. It's the ultimate in selfish acts. To acknowledge that doesnt diminish the empathy for the pain and suffering of those battling depression.

Sorry but it is the very definition of an unselfish act. There is nothing selfish about it at all

[Radders]

NOKIN, on 05 February 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Way, way wrong.

Someone who is capable of taking their own life isn't selfish unless the aim was to upset someone or a group of people. Most suicides (from my experience) are not carried out to purposely upset people, they are carried out because the person cannot bare to live in the situation they find themselves in, life becomes so unbearable there is absolutely no other way out for them. Their thoughts are not rational, loved ones or the general public don't come into the thought process.

Its extremely complicated and its not cut and dry. Someone has to be in an extremely dark place to take their own life.

It must be an absolutely horrible place to be in but its certainly not selfish.

Completely agree - absolutely right. I've been on the other side of this but I wouldn't, for one minute, say my friend was selfish.

[brianclose]

It would seem that an ex friend of Carlisles, Ralf Little, is not as sympathetic to his plight as the majority are on here.

http://www.dailymail...de-attempt.html

[firedodger]

Goku, on 05 February 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Possibly but by this point I'm sure all logical thinking has gone out the window. They're not thinking "what about the policeman who has to find my corpse, what about the train driver/lorry driver/whoever who is going to be behind the wheel of the vehicle that kills me". The despair has taken over. At least, that's how I imagine it.

Maybe so, I suppose it's only people who have actually been in that situation that will ever truly understand the mindset. Like I said I've only ever been on the other end of it, people need to understand what it's like to find and deal with corpses or more unpleasantly remains. Particularly in the case of train drivers, when someone steps in front of a train the aftermath is horrific beyond belief, and something the drivers then carry round with them forever.

This post has been edited by firedodger: 05 February 2015 - 11:19 AM

[Goku]

firedodger, on 05 February 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

Maybe so, I suppose it's only people who have actually been in that situation that will ever truly understand the mindset. Like I said I've only ever been on the other end of it, people need to understand what it's like to find and deal with corpses or more unpleasantly remains. Particularly in the case of train drivers, when someone steps in front of a train the aftermath is horrific beyond belief, and something the drivers then carry round with them forever.

But again, by saying "people need to understand what it's like to find and deal with..." you're assuming these people are in any shape to think logically about what will occur from their actions. I don't doubt it's a horrible experience to have to look at someone's mangled remains after walking in front of a train but their mental pain and suffering is presumably a lot worse than that seeing as the only option they see at that point in time is suicide.

[firedodger]

Goku, on 05 February 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

But again, by saying "people need to understand what it's like to find and deal with..." you're assuming these people are in any shape to think logically about what will occur from their actions. I don't doubt it's a horrible experience to have to look at someone's mangled remains after walking in front of a train but their mental pain and suffering is presumably a lot worse than that seeing as the only option they see at that point in time is suicide.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is their actions can pass precisely their pain and mental suffering onto other people, I know of cases where train drivers have hit the depths of depression after driving a train that has hit and killed people, I've seen the state of people who have run over suicidal people. The train driver himself might be very low and barely holding himself together before the incident. Like a lot of things in life it's not a case of black and white, I do feel sorry for the people who are so down that they get to the point of suicide, but I feel a hell of a lot more sorry for the people they leave behind who feel it might be their fault, or they could have helped, or who have the memory of the last few seconds of that persons life, or who have to deal with the aftermath.
I don't want to labour the point but a speeding train doesn't leave mangled remains, you have to painstakingly search several miles of track to try and recognize and pick up the pieces. It's a nasty nasty messy job, by and large it won't happen in a way that the train driver doesn't see anything.

[Goku]

It's a very fair point you make about depression potentially causing more depression because of the actions of a depressed person (mouthful). It's something I'd not thought about. Again, though, this won't change. People will reach that point of no return and that'll be that, sadly. Others won't come into it past a certain point (I'm basing this line of thought on articles I've read, experiences with other people and also an extrapolation of my own experiences with the illness).

For the record, I can picture the aftermath of what occurs when a train runs over someone - I was trying to be 'PG' haha, my initial turn of phrase was 'chewed up giblets' but I thought that sounded a tad insensitive.

[Town_Fan]

I think too many people are getting hung up of the negative connotation of the word selfish. Maybe introspective is a better word but either way when dealing with depression all your thoughts are about you and how you affect others. This selfishness can become debilitating and make you completely irrational.

OK cards on the table time. I’m currently being treated for anxiety and depression. This treatment is a combination of drugs, counselling and CBT (although the latter hasn’t started yet). Depression is an awful disease and one that finally came to a head when I was admitted to North Middlesex hospital in floods of tears having been so very close to ending it all. The despair I felt was unreal and crippling and it was all about me. I wasn’t thinking about others and that’s why I feel I was selfish. I still believe this.

I honestly think it’s OK to see depression as a “selfish” disease provided you don’t hang onto that negative connotation. I think it’s Ok to understand why it is so selfish and through that understanding not get hung up on it being a bad thing, more that selfishness is a symptom rather than deliberate act to be selfish.

A lot of people have no idea this is going on with me, in fact to many it’s business as usual as I hide it well. I went to the Derby game and I’m sure people I saw there would have had no idea.

Depression is the disease no-one wants to talk about never mind admit to having, I bet there are many Town fans who suffer in silence. No jokes at the back…

Now I’ve done this longish post I better not get RLIR or that could actually finish me off.

[Rodney's Moustache]

NOKIN, on 05 February 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

Unfortunately they don't mate.

Totally agree .It's only selfish if the person's in a rational state of mind.When you feel like this there is no rationale even the thought of your own child/children doesn't stop the feeling of being trapped in a world you don't want to be in.

[LuSiVe]

I've been treated for it in the past with drugs ... it hasn't got bad enough that it's gone any further than that. Not many people know - only those around me at the time of my meltdowns (during Uni exams and a particularly stressful period at work when I was overloaded and didn't cope). Never bad enough to actually attempt anything but the thoughts have been there. I know it's never going to go away completely but have developed coping strategies - if I need to walk away or just shut myself in for a few days then that's what happens.

[Rodney's Moustache]

Town_Fan, on 05 February 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

I think too many people are getting hung up of the negative connotation of the word selfish. Maybe introspective is a better word but either way when dealing with depression all your thoughts are about you and how you affect others. This selfishness can become debilitating and make you completely irrational.

OK cards on the table time. I'm currently being treated for anxiety and depression. This treatment is a combination of drugs, counselling and CBT (although the latter hasn't started yet). Depression is an awful disease and one that finally came to a head when I was admitted to North Middlesex hospital in floods of tears having been so very close to ending it all. The despair I felt was unreal and crippling and it was all about me. I wasn't thinking about others and that's why I feel I was selfish. I still believe this.

I honestly think it's OK to see depression as a "selfish" disease provided you don't hang onto that negative connotation. I think it's Ok to understand why it is so selfish and through that understanding not get hung up on it being a bad thing, more that selfishness is a symptom rather than deliberate act to be selfish.

A lot of people have no idea this is going on with me, in fact to many it's business as usual as I hide it well. I went to the Derby game and I'm sure people I saw there would have had no idea.

Depression is the disease no-one wants to talk about never mind admit to having, I bet there are many Town fans who suffer in silence. No jokes at the back…

Now I've done this longish post I better not get RLIR or that could actually finish me off.

Suffer from anxiety and depression myself to the point where I Had to leave work 5 years ago having been diagnosed with prostate cancer at the same time. I am also on medication and have had the CBT therapy which hepled but is not the magic cure as I hoped it would be. I find the best therapy is excerise makes you feel good about yourself and releases the natural endorphines consequently I'm as fit as a fiddle at 52.Wishing you the best of luck things will get better.

[Rodney's Moustache]

LuSiVe, on 05 February 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

I've been treated for it in the past with drugs ... it hasn't got bad enough that it's gone any further than that. Not many people know - only those around me at the time of my meltdowns (during Uni exams and a particularly stressful period at work when I was overloaded and didn't cope). Never bad enough to actually attempt anything but the thoughts have been there. I know it's never going to go away completely but have developed coping strategies - if I need to walk away or just shut myself in for a few days then that's what happens.

I agree you learn your own ways to cope with it. One of the best ways is to try and rationalise your thoughts as taught through CBT

This post has been edited by Rodney's Moustache: 05 February 2015 - 12:44 PM

[hilly81]

Town_Fan, on 05 February 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

I think too many people are getting hung up of the negative connotation of the word selfish. Maybe introspective is a better word but either way when dealing with depression all your thoughts are about you and how you affect others. This selfishness can become debilitating and make you completely irrational.

OK cards on the table time. I’m currently being treated for anxiety and depression. This treatment is a combination of drugs, counselling and CBT (although the latter hasn’t started yet). Depression is an awful disease and one that finally came to a head when I was admitted to North Middlesex hospital in floods of tears having been so very close to ending it all. The despair I felt was unreal and crippling and it was all about me. I wasn’t thinking about others and that’s why I feel I was selfish. I still believe this.

I honestly think it’s OK to see depression as a “selfish” disease provided you don’t hang onto that negative connotation. I think it’s Ok to understand why it is so selfish and through that understanding not get hung up on it being a bad thing, more that selfishness is a symptom rather than deliberate act to be selfish.

A lot of people have no idea this is going on with me, in fact to many it’s business as usual as I hide it well. I went to the Derby game and I’m sure people I saw there would have had no idea.

Depression is the disease no-one wants to talk about never mind admit to having, I bet there are many Town fans who suffer in silence. No jokes at the back…

Now I’ve done this longish post I better not get RLIR or that could actually finish me off.

Fair play for this post pal. Must have been a difficult one. Absolute best of luck going forward.

[Sammy Spireite]

Surely every case is different?

A guy I know took his own life. He waited until his wife had gone out, rung the Police and gave his address, explained his actions and his reasons and asked the police to find him before his wife got home. He even apologised to the police phone operator and the officer that would find him before 'letting go' with the phone operator still on the line.

FWIW, this chap was well known to the club and him/his wife have had first team players lodge with them in the past.

A seemingly decent, well-balanced man who loved his family dearly, but obviously with demons he felt he couldn't conquer.

This post has been edited by dalekpete: 05 February 2015 - 01:50 PM
Reason for edit: to remove details of the method.

[Westbars Spireite]

Town_Fan, on 05 February 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

I think too many people are getting hung up of the negative connotation of the word selfish. Maybe introspective is a better word but either way when dealing with depression all your thoughts are about you and how you affect others. This selfishness can become debilitating and make you completely irrational.

OK cards on the table time. I’m currently being treated for anxiety and depression. This treatment is a combination of drugs, counselling and CBT (although the latter hasn’t started yet). Depression is an awful disease and one that finally came to a head when I was admitted to North Middlesex hospital in floods of tears having been so very close to ending it all. The despair I felt was unreal and crippling and it was all about me. I wasn’t thinking about others and that’s why I feel I was selfish. I still believe this.

I honestly think it’s OK to see depression as a “selfish” disease provided you don’t hang onto that negative connotation. I think it’s Ok to understand why it is so selfish and through that understanding not get hung up on it being a bad thing, more that selfishness is a symptom rather than deliberate act to be selfish.

A lot of people have no idea this is going on with me, in fact to many it’s business as usual as I hide it well. I went to the Derby game and I’m sure people I saw there would have had no idea.

Depression is the disease no-one wants to talk about never mind admit to having, I bet there are many Town fans who suffer in silence. No jokes at the back…

Now I’ve done this longish post I better not get RLIR or that could actually finish me off.

I applaud your honesty and hope you can overcome it.

[JonB]

It would appear Ralf Little and Clarke Carlisle dont get on...

http://www.twitlonge.../show/n_1skfskk

[Town_Fan]

Thanks to everyone for their kind words and thanks to those who shared their own experience, I know that's not easy.

In my case I think there is a direct correlation between my descent into depression and the lack of posts from Barabas. I've missed his thoughts on Bramley Vale ashrams, John Sheringham and coltsfoot tinctures. It's fair to say I need some of his positivity.

[brianclose]

JonB, on 05 February 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

It would appear Ralf Little and Clarke Carlisle dont get on...

http://www.twitlonge.../show/n_1skfskk

A very erudite and thought provoking piece from Mr Little.

This post has been edited by brianclose: 05 February 2015 - 02:04 PM