[Mr Mercury]

Goku, on 07 November 2020 - 10:19 PM, said:

I don’t think this thread reinforces that Merc. I’m not saying people who vote Tory are scum or anything like that. People had valid reasons to vote them last election and I don’t have a problem with that, if you wanted to leave the EU they were realistically the only party to vote for, but I do absolutely believe the party is ran by dishonest amoral conmen.

People in power are always there to be shot at, and I agree the nose in the bag arguement is difficult, if not impossible, to ignore with the current government. The fact is Labour have been out of power for so long they don't undergo that level of scrutiny, yes it happens, but stories that focus on the opposition will never carry as much weight as those that focus on the government.
And I know, because I genuinely see both sides, that you don't think all people who voted Tory at the last election are scum, but many hundreds of thousands of voters thought, and I think, still do, that the view is, from the factions of Corbyns Labour, which hopefully is now being cast adrift, that, regardless of who you voted for, then if it wasn't Labour, then you were scum. And that carried so much weight away from London that it destroyed Labour from the Midlands upwards.

[isleaiw1]

Westbars Spireite, on 07 November 2020 - 07:30 PM, said:

It was due to Corbyn, simple as that.

I don’t believe it was. It was also some shocking policies that were way too easily torn apart by anyone and everyone, their lack of policy on some things - especially Brexit, a second referendum, what they would support... and yes, they had forgotten their roots and got a short sharp shock from those roots...

[Search & Destroy]

Why did Labour lose in the north?



Immigration
Brexit
Terrorism and security
The lack of trust on economic policy
Corbyn
Boris

[Westbars Spireite]

isleaiw1, on 07 November 2020 - 10:33 PM, said:

I don’t believe it was. It was also some shocking policies that were way too easily torn apart by anyone and everyone, their lack of policy on some things - especially Brexit, a second referendum, what they would support... and yes, they had forgotten their roots and got a short sharp shock from those roots...

Without Corbyn Skinner would have been returned as MP, absolutely no question.

[Wooden Spoon]

Goku said:

1604787571[/url]' post='1538267']
but I do absolutely believe the party is ran by dishonest amoral conmen.

It sure is, men from money families educated at money colleges looking after money families.

[Wooden Spoon]

Goku said:

1604787571[/url]' post='1538267']
I don't think this thread reinforces that Merc. I'm not saying people who vote Tory are scum or anything like that. People had valid reasons to vote them last election and I don't have a problem with that, if you wanted to leave the EU they were realistically the only party to vote for, but I do absolutely believe the party is ran by dishonest amoral conmen.

HB.


Look at your post. It’s informative. Your a bright lad, just step back a little now and than. Labour could do well to use intelligent folk like you, who have the capability to be objective.




“If you believe in brexit, there was only one party to vote for”. Very true. Huge areas of traditional Labour territory voted leave. The party pledged to honour that referendum. In Westminster political set tried everything to block brexit, for many reasons.




Both sides, the ERG and remainers from all parties, Anna Soubry for example, Tory mp. Anger among the silent majority. The vocal minority lobby people like her and she goes on question time saying 2/3rds of her constituency support remain or a people’s vote. And she believed it, and so did labour because they don’t speak to, it listen the normal folk. And look what happened.




Then Boris gets his election. His advisors did listen, they tapped into the real mood of the public. His position was clear. GET BREXIT DONE.




Labour had Thornbury and others STILL campaigning for a people’s vote.YOU were smart enough to say, half the electorate will go apeshyte if they don’t implement it. If a young lad from town is shrewd enough to see this, why not the Labour Party? Because they don’t listen, they dictate. Browns “that bigoted woman” never mind if they had issues in her area, she’s a bigot. The issues don’t matter.




The leader himself saying he’d for a people’s vote, but would say if he supported it or not. Labour politicians saying “no one voted to be poorer”. No we didn’t, but we still voted leave so respect it. “Kinnock the younger” saying the “people didn’t know what they voted for, “yes, we did, we voted leave. So respect it. Then we had the likes of Abbott and long Bailey on the front bench. Jeez.



They had madcap schemes like installing free fibre broadband for everyone, based on borrowing. When we have broadband anyway.




Mixed messages, conflicting statements from different members of the front bench.




Saying hey, look what these tosses are lying about now is irrelevant- sayining look how good an alternative we can offer, much more positive.




Corona. Every opportunity to help, to offer to work WITH Boris should have been offered, even to the point off offering to form a government of national unity. Being seen to be proactive in times of crisis goes a long way. It could also have helped avert some of the terrible blunders made under the current regime, and if rejected then hey they can say we offered to help in the interests of the nation........much better than perhaps being seems as sniping from the sidelines with the benefit of hindsight




Anyone who thinks this pandemic will damage the tories might be mistaken. They will say things like “no European nation got it right, Belgium, France, Spain etc” all made mistakes and no one had a manual to work too. We made difficult decisions. We furloughed staff to project jobs. We tried to protect people while we tried to protect jobs and livelihoods. And it will carry some weight. If he’s clever, this crisis could turn out to be as useful to Boris as the Falkland war was to thatcher. And he has some shrewd unscrupulous advisors.




Simply bitching about how bad the nasty party are just won’t work, it won’t appeal to enough people.




Labour need to be proactive, positive,sensible, centre ground and appeal to as many people as possible to get the blue out, not appeal to the minority audience who are already on board.




As I’ve said many times, there’s a reason “old labour” have not been in power for almost 50 years. Until the Labour Party understand why this is, they won’t be in power for another 50 years.





In fact, in a decade or a little more, you could end up seeing the Green Party replace them.

[Goku]

isleaiw1, on 07 November 2020 - 07:13 PM, said:

You don’t listen to anything, you already know the answers...

I have a good friend who works for a senior long serving labour MP, I work with a bunch of intelligent politically aware people, I use other forums than a football one and get various views. I remember when politicians had done something before politics, had some experience, knew the real world. Now they are career politicians so they have to look good, they can’t give it up and go back to a prior career If they don’t like the way their party is going.

I don’t read about money, maybe ways to make some. I read about problems and potential solutions and the various arguments for and against. Not from politicians who will put there own political slant on it.

I don’t profess to know the answers to it all, I leave that to people like you who know everything having done erm, what precisely..

Your assumptions are getting a little boring now. As I’ve said, I read and listen to all opinions across the political spectrum and change my views a lot more frequently than most people I come across based on information I read. Hence why I changed something as fundamental as my eating habits after 23 years.

You’re becoming very b!tchy with comments like your last one. I don’t know the answers to all. I’ve never inferred that. I simply reserve the right to not listen to the rules proposed by a corrupt government. That’s not saying I know best, it’s saying I don’t trust the people in power. You’re a bootlocker as we’ve ascertained - authority comforts you. It doesn’t do that for me. As for me allegedly not having done anything, what is it you’d have me do for me to be able to offer an opinion?

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 07 November 2020 - 09:59 PM, said:

From my perspective Chris, and that of many family and friends, it was because Corbyn and the Labour Party he led, gave the impression he had forgotton the working class Northern constituencies, and re Brexit they were seemingly going back on what those constituencies had voted for. It became more about the party as a whole, and how they were viewed away from the London centric luvies. It mattered not what Dennis stood for, or indeed his fantastic record of a constituency MP, he was holed below the water line by the likes of Corbyn, Abbot, Thornbury and co, and the torpedo was that brutal it rendered him irrelevant. Sad though it is, if Mays leadership had gone full term he would probably have stood down, sadly the snap election stopped that. Far too many former Labour voters thought they were being preached down to by those that should have supported them, and I'm afraid, with all due respect to goku, who always argues his corner well, this thread just reinforces that view.
And regarding your last paragraph I could say that this Tibshelf lad won't give in to what the Metropolitan elitist left want to impose upon me what their view of a Labour voter should be.

Sorry pal, but I still don't get why folk who've spent decades backing a hard left leaver in huge numbers would turn against him 'cos of others on the hard left. Some of whom were leavers too.

Just as I don't get this characterisation of London centric luvvies. I can honestly say I've never met one in my years as a member.

And worst of all I can never, ever understand why people turn blind eyes to the corruption featured on this very thread to support real metropolitan elitists who've lied, lied and lied again and who vote against their constituents' interests on a weekly basis.

Please don't be insulted by this as it's not intended as one. But I just think a lot of folk who backed Bozo over Brexit would rather do that than admit being wrong...

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 08 November 2020 - 07:48 AM, said:

Sorry pal, but I still don't get why folk who've spent decades backing a hard left leaver in huge numbers would turn against him 'cos of others on the hard left. Some of whom were leavers too.

Just as I don't get this characterisation of London centric luvvies. I can honestly say I've never met one in my years as a member.

And worst of all I can never, ever understand why people turn blind eyes to the corruption featured on this very thread to support real metropolitan elitists who've lied, lied and lied again and who vote against their constituents' interests on a weekly basis.

Please don't be insulted by this as it's not intended as one. But I just think a lot of folk who backed Bozo over Brexit would rather do that than admit being wrong...

Morning Chris, I'd never be insulted mate. It's genuine folk who on this issue have differing views discussing them.
I think your second paragraph, and parts of deaths superb post above sum it up. The fact that you, a hard working Labour Party member through and through have never met, and I suppose it was a bit of pigeon holing from me...a London centric luvvie..is because they don't venture out of that bubble and never meet real grass roots supporters, hence why Labour got it so wrong over Brexit and the last election.

[isleaiw1]

Westbars Spireite, on 07 November 2020 - 10:58 PM, said:

Without Corbyn Skinner would have been returned as MP, absolutely no question.

Very possibly - Shirebrook in particular was very pro Brexit and in his constituency I believe. But Corbyn wasn't the only reason, if they had decent policies and a sh 1 t leader they would have won many more seats. The days of them being able to rely on a vote because they are labour are dying out with the generation who last worked in the pits I am afraid...

[isleaiw1]

Goku, on 08 November 2020 - 07:29 AM, said:

Your assumptions are getting a little boring now. As I’ve said, I read and listen to all opinions across the political spectrum and change my views a lot more frequently than most people I come across based on information I read. Hence why I changed something as fundamental as my eating habits after 23 years.

You’re becoming very b!tchy with comments like your last one. I don’t know the answers to all. I’ve never inferred that. I simply reserve the right to not listen to the rules proposed by a corrupt government. That’s not saying I know best, it’s saying I don’t trust the people in power. You’re a bootlocker as we’ve ascertained - authority comforts you. It doesn’t do that for me. As for me allegedly not having done anything, what is it you’d have me do for me to be able to offer an opinion?

It was, and for that I apologise. Now turn it round, you assume that I am certain things from the little you see of me on here. I have to bring a smile when you say I dont have an opinion, my boss often starts discussions at work by telling me to keep my opinions to the end.

I am not a bootlicker, but rules do comfort me, its how we remain a civilised society and you cannot pick and choose those rules that you abide by and those you dont, that is ludicrous. I accepted the will of the democracy on many things (inlcuding the big one kicking around now) and whilst I may not agree we now have to listen. On your basis, if the majority elect a govt but you dont like it you are still free to do what you want. Imagine if the rednecks who supported Trump start doing that, we would all be up in arms.

My job is to enforce compliance with policy, procedure and law across 1000 people who often dont see why they should. You'll understand why I am a believer in sticking to the rules as I risk prison if they dont as my name is down as person responsible. It gives you a different perspective - and if someone in one of our establishments doesnt follow the rules we have set to follow government guidelines, whether we like it or not, they run the risk of dismissal for gross misconduct. And they are often looking at it for the good of the business.... 8 people at a dinner table, great revenue, not allowed. Take it and get found out, you will be disciplined. I therefore find it irritating that people who are doing it only for their own self good dont stick to the rules. Hope that makes sense.

Anyway, have a great weekend. I have to check we are in compliance with the furlough rules asap so my day sorted....

[Westbars Spireite]

On the contrary, you have to pick and choose and then subsequently challenge those rules/laws you disagree with.

It's a fundamental requirement of a progressive society.

[isleaiw1]

Westbars Spireite, on 08 November 2020 - 10:05 AM, said:

On the contrary, you have to pick and choose and then subsequently challenge those rules/laws you disagree with.

It's a fundamental requirement of a progressive society.

Great, so challenge. That's not deciding which ones you abide by. Its taking appropriate action to get them on the debate table.

Or are you saying if a burglar doesnt like the laws around theft he should carry on burgling as that's his challenge.....

[Westbars Spireite]

isleaiw1, on 08 November 2020 - 10:24 AM, said:

Great, so challenge. That's not deciding which ones you abide by. Its taking appropriate action to get them on the debate table.

Or are you saying if a burglar doesnt like the laws around theft he should carry on burgling as that's his challenge.....

The best way to get results is by actions and not words.

[isleaiw1]

Westbars Spireite, on 08 November 2020 - 10:27 AM, said:

The best way to get results is by actions and not words.

Lets hope its not your house that gets burgled, or your kids robbed then. Or other less attractive things by people who dont like the laws they face.

Shall we start calling you Donald, he is having a tantrum over some laws he doesnt like....

[Westbars Spireite]

isleaiw1, on 08 November 2020 - 10:32 AM, said:

Lets hope its not your house that gets burgled, or your kids robbed then. Or other less attractive things by people who dont like the laws they face.

Shall we start calling you Donald, he is having a tantrum over some laws he doesnt like....

You took up the obtuse burglary angle, not me. And then added tantrum for good measure.

Take a day to pamper yourself. Essential oils perhaps and some soothing music.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 08 November 2020 - 09:11 AM, said:

Morning Chris, I'd never be insulted mate. It's genuine folk who on this issue have differing views discussing them.
I think your second paragraph, and parts of deaths superb post above sum it up. The fact that you, a hard working Labour Party member through and through have never met, and I suppose it was a bit of pigeon holing from me...a London centric luvvie..is because they don't venture out of that bubble and never meet real grass roots supporters, hence why Labour got it so wrong over Brexit and the last election.

Gotta say I don't know how to respond to this, 'M'.

The fact I've never met a London centric luvvie is proof they exist?

You really have got me there, pal.

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 08 November 2020 - 10:47 AM, said:

Gotta say I don't know how to respond to this, 'M'.

The fact I've never met a London centric luvvie is proof they exist?

You really have got me there, pal.

What I mean is that those that manufactured the last election decimation don't appear to be making themselves available to listen to folk like you mate who could have warned them what would happen. The fact they aren't visible doesn't mean they don't exsist. The luvvie term is a bit of a crass generalisation I admit.

[Blue5]

isleaiw1, on 08 November 2020 - 09:56 AM, said:

It was, and for that I apologise. Now turn it round, you assume that I am certain things from the little you see of me on here. I have to bring a smile when you say I dont have an opinion, my boss often starts discussions at work by telling me to keep my opinions to the end.

I am not a bootlicker, but rules do comfort me, its how we remain a civilised society and you cannot pick and choose those rules that you abide by and those you dont, that is ludicrous. I accepted the will of the democracy on many things (inlcuding the big one kicking around now) and whilst I may not agree we now have to listen. On your basis, if the majority elect a govt but you dont like it you are still free to do what you want. Imagine if the rednecks who supported Trump start doing that, we would all be up in arms.

My job is to enforce compliance with policy, procedure and law across 1000 people who often dont see why they should. You'll understand why I am a believer in sticking to the rules as I risk prison if they dont as my name is down as person responsible. It gives you a different perspective - and if someone in one of our establishments doesnt follow the rules we have set to follow government guidelines, whether we like it or not, they run the risk of dismissal for gross misconduct. And they are often looking at it for the good of the business.... 8 people at a dinner table, great revenue, not allowed. Take it and get found out, you will be disciplined. I therefore find it irritating that people who are doing it only for their own self good dont stick to the rules. Hope that makes sense.

Anyway, have a great weekend. I have to check we are in compliance with the furlough rules asap so my day sorted....

I'm assuming a criminal record would put your employment as an accountant at risk together with limiting your future career prospects?

Those who are willing to push the boundaries and break the law generally have little to lose by doing so.

[Westbars Spireite]

Blue5, on 08 November 2020 - 11:49 AM, said:

I'm assuming a criminal record would put your employment as an accountant at risk together with limiting your future career prospects?

Those who are willing to push the boundaries and break the law generally have little to lose by doing so.

Or alternatively those who aren't are generally comfortable and protective of what they have.