[Wooden Spoon]

isleaiw1, on 05 July 2023 - 12:00 PM, said:

It was losing money and massively in debt before it was privatised, was that a win for nationalisation then?

The problem is alot of the water network needs replacing and that costs serious amounts of cash which no one wants to spend - not even the govt. Whats the magic solution...?

So what benefit did consumer/paying public get? Nothing


The only ones who benefit are those who received dividends. Dividends that are almost the same as the debts.


Isn’t there a law that says dividends can only be paid if the business can afford it? Clearly with the debt mountain crushing the business they couldn’t afford it and it will be us, the tax payer picking up the pieces and paying out billions.


Seems to me a business was given away for peanuts with its debts wiped- a lot of money paid out and then we get the same business back at a cost of billions in the same state it was anyway - needing billions spending in investments.


So I ask again where is the win for privatisation in terms of the paying public? You neatly dodged that with some classic whataboutery

[Town_Fan]

isleaiw1, on 05 July 2023 - 12:00 PM, said:

It was losing money and massively in debt before it was privatised, was that a win for nationalisation then?

The problem is alot of the water network needs replacing and that costs serious amounts of cash which no one wants to spend - not even the govt. Whats the magic solution...?

The difference is we are now as customers being charged a fortune for a woeful service and it still needs bailing out.

[isleaiw1]

Wooden Spoon, on 05 July 2023 - 12:33 PM, said:

So what benefit did consumer/paying public get? Nothing


The only ones who benefit are those who received dividends. Dividends that are almost the same as the debts.


Isn’t there a law that says dividends can only be paid if the business can afford it? Clearly with the debt mountain crushing the business they couldn’t afford it and it will be us, the tax payer picking up the pieces and paying out billions.


Seems to me a business was given away for peanuts with its debts wiped- a lot of money paid out and then we get the same business back at a cost of billions in the same state it was anyway - needing billions spending in investments.


So I ask again where is the win for privatisation in terms of the paying public? You neatly dodged that with some classic whataboutery

It might have changed these days but you used to be able to pay a dividend as long as your retained profits number (cumulative) was positive - and nothing to do with the debt you had.

I never said privatisation was a win, I was just pointing out that nationalisation isnt a panacea. As the 70s and 80s proved.

They raised another £1.5bn I think in 2020 to help invest £11.5bn in the network over the 5 years starting then. No idea how much that makes in total. They were making £1bn a year EBITDA (profit before interest, tax, depreciation and amorisation) - not sure what that translated to at the bottom line but should have generated cash for reinvestment and of course those people putting in the money as equity would want a dividend as reward for their financing, just like a bank wants interest on a loan.

How much would the taxpayer have had to invest over the last 32 years had it been in public ownership? and would it be any better given it was in a crap position when they had to give it away..?

Town_Fan, on 05 July 2023 - 12:35 PM, said:

The difference is we are now as customers being charged a fortune for a woeful service and it still needs bailing out.

I think my water is quite cheap and my water company (Affinity) seem pretty good when it comes to service... if it was nationalised would we be paying any less, especially as we would have to fund the investment too...

[Town_Fan]

isleaiw1, on 05 July 2023 - 01:56 PM, said:

It might have changed these days but you used to be able to pay a dividend as long as your retained profits number (cumulative) was positive - and nothing to do with the debt you had.

I never said privatisation was a win, I was just pointing out that nationalisation isnt a panacea. As the 70s and 80s proved.

They raised another £1.5bn I think in 2020 to help invest £11.5bn in the network over the 5 years starting then. No idea how much that makes in total. They were making £1bn a year EBITDA (profit before interest, tax, depreciation and amorisation) - not sure what that translated to at the bottom line but should have generated cash for reinvestment and of course those people putting in the money as equity would want a dividend as reward for their financing, just like a bank wants interest on a loan.

How much would the taxpayer have had to invest over the last 32 years had it been in public ownership? and would it be any better given it was in a crap position when they had to give it away..?



I think my water is quite cheap and my water company (Affinity) seem pretty good when it comes to service... if it was nationalised would we be paying any less, especially as we would have to fund the investment too...

I'd rather fund investment than see money disappear as dividends while the service rots away.

Can't believe you are comparing the cheap flat fee rates of decades ago with the over priced metered rubbish we put up with today.

It doesn't make you a communist to point out when a capitalist venture has gone wrong. Although the current monopoly and potential bail outs font seem very capitalist to me.

[isleaiw1]

Town_Fan, on 05 July 2023 - 02:33 PM, said:

I'd rather fund investment than see money disappear as dividends while the service rots away.

Can't believe you are comparing the cheap flat fee rates of decades ago with the over priced metered rubbish we put up with today.

It doesn't make you a communist to point out when a capitalist venture has gone wrong. Although the current monopoly and potential bail outs font seem very capitalist to me.

I'm not defending them really, I think there is massive mismanagement in most of the national infrastructure businesses. I'm just not sure what the solution is as what we had before didnt work...

I agree with metered water the same as metered gas and electric, pay for what you use. Should encourage people to waste less as well....

Maybe we should nationalise it and put prices up so it can pay for its own investment and not need govt money? But first we have to buy it back otherwise the pension funds that own it might be a bit miffed...

[Town_Fan]

isleaiw1, on 05 July 2023 - 06:03 PM, said:

But first we have to buy it back otherwise the pension funds that own it might be a bit miffed...

Ask them if they want us to buy them back but they are responsible for the losses first. I wonder what they will say.

Whats the adage? The value of your investment can go down as well as up?

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

isleaiw1, on 05 July 2023 - 12:00 PM, said:

It was losing money and massively in debt before it was privatised, was that a win for nationalisation then?

The problem is alot of the water network needs replacing and that costs serious amounts of cash which no one wants to spend - not even the govt. Whats the magic solution...?

The water companies were sold debt free.

One of the many benefits enjoyed by often foreign investors who've since pocketed billions...

[Wooden Spoon]

Town_Fan, on 05 July 2023 - 06:21 PM, said:

Ask them if they want us to buy them back but they are responsible for the losses first. I wonder what they will say.

Whats the adage? The value of your investment can go down as well as up?

Why do you always assume a re nationalised business would suddenly transport you to the 1970s?

[Town_Fan]

Wooden Spoon, on 05 July 2023 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why do you always assume a re nationalised business would suddenly transport you to the 1970s?

I'm assuming that wasnt meant for me!!

But in case it is, BRING IT ON COMRADE! All power to the people and the Tooting popular front.

[Wooden Spoon]

Town_Fan, on 05 July 2023 - 07:07 PM, said:

I'm assuming that wasnt meant for me!!

But in case it is, BRING IT ON COMRADE! All power to the people and the Tooting popular front.

No mate, for Ian



And yeah bring it on, state ownership for services like water. No more dividends taking money out. Invest in infrastructure and build a system that cuts waste saves water and gives decent service for a fair price instead of having the British publics pants down

This post has been edited by Wooden Spoon: 05 July 2023 - 07:43 PM

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 05 July 2023 - 06:59 PM, said:

The water companies were sold debt free.

One of the many benefits enjoyed by often foreign investors who've since pocketed billions...

But it was in debt when nationalised....

and how much has the business invested in the 32 years in private ownership?

[isleaiw1]

Wooden Spoon, on 05 July 2023 - 07:00 PM, said:

Why do you always assume a re nationalised business would suddenly transport you to the 1970s?

well the nationalised businesses we have now are not exactly a lesson in how to run a business are they...? why do you think it would be different to before?

PS I include the NHS in the badly run nationalised businesses, that wont make me popular either!

[Wooden Spoon]

isleaiw1, on 05 July 2023 - 07:47 PM, said:

well the nationalised businesses we have now are not exactly a lesson in how to run a business are they...? why do you think it would be different to before?

PS I include the NHS in the badly run nationalised businesses, that wont make me popular either!

The he NHS needs reform for sure.

I’d say the biggest reform the NHS needs is social care and preventative care. We seem to just focus on hospitals and reactive care.


After 30 years of privatisation we see public services in disarray and in debt. Over 20% of the train operating companies are currently run by the state, water companies on the verge of bankruptcy.


Power stations coming to the end of their operating lives and nothing being built to replace them unless the government throws huge amounts of money to subsidise it

It’s not been a success, has it

[isleaiw1]

Wooden Spoon, on 05 July 2023 - 08:00 PM, said:

The he NHS needs reform for sure.

I’d say the biggest reform the NHS needs is social care and preventative care. We seem to just focus on hospitals and reactive care.


After 30 years of privatisation we see public services in disarray and in debt. Over 20% of the train operating companies are currently run by the state, water companies on the verge of bankruptcy.


Power stations coming to the end of their operating lives and nothing being built to replace them unless the government throws huge amounts of money to subsidise it

It’s not been a success, has it

Certainly not, and it wasnt a success before. So we need something better than either option. And with the NHS.

But the trouble is they are political footballs - if they are going to be run as nationalised businesses then there should be an overseeing INDEPENDENT watchdog that ensures that they are making the best decisions for the right reasons and properly funded and run. Their efficiency levels and such should be matched to private sector firms (not in water services but across admin and project and engineering and such) to avoid the bloated, bureaucratic and frankly incapable previous attempts.

PS private healthcare insurance renewal costs going through the roof because demand for private hospital services has gone through the roof, maybe that's a thought, give a tax break to those who pay for private care to encourage more to do it so those that cant afford it can be seen quicker by the NHS...?

This post has been edited by isleaiw1: 06 July 2023 - 11:27 AM

[Wooden Spoon]

isleaiw1, on 06 July 2023 - 11:25 AM, said:

Certainly not, and it wasnt a success before. So we need something better than either option. And with the NHS.

But the trouble is they are political footballs - if they are going to be run as nationalised businesses then there should be an overseeing INDEPENDENT watchdog that ensures that they are making the best decisions for the right reasons and properly funded and run. Their efficiency levels and such should be matched to private sector firms (not in water services but across admin and project and engineering and such) to avoid the bloated, bureaucratic and frankly incapable previous attempts.

PS private healthcare insurance renewal costs going through the roof because demand for private hospital services has gone through the roof, maybe that's a thought, give a tax break to those who pay for private care to encourage more to do it so those that cant afford it can be seen quicker by the NHS...?

Isn’t there an independant body that over sees them now? So that can stay in place, set sensible KPI and money the went out as dividends instead is used to invest in infrastructure- if they still make a surplus it goes to the treasury. What’s not to like?

[isleaiw1]

Wooden Spoon, on 09 July 2023 - 01:41 AM, said:

Isn’t there an independant body that over sees them now? So that can stay in place, set sensible KPI and money the went out as dividends instead is used to invest in infrastructure- if they still make a surplus it goes to the treasury. What’s not to like?

Its so easy isnt it? Just set some KPIs (what? do they change each year? whats a sensible target? how granular do they need to be?) and off you go. But nationalised businesses of the 70s and 80s were riddled with bad management, waste and moved at glacial speed as there was no pressure to get stuff done, the idea of a job for life where you did sod all and couldnt be sacked wasnt far from the truth. We need them to be efficient, move quickly, drive change - get better as you say they are crap now. Setting KPIs and attracting management that can do that is the big thing, the KPIs will be need to be very detailed by process and operation not just 4 or 5 at the top level...

And of course there will be more investment needed than returns in the first decades, as they have so far only taken out what they have borrowed, but much more investment is needed. Are they going to borrow that independently at market rates or from the govt - where debt as a percent of GDP is as high as it has been since the war?

[Wooden Spoon]

isleaiw1, on 09 July 2023 - 09:11 AM, said:

Its so easy isnt it? Just set some KPIs (what? do they change each year? whats a sensible target? how granular do they need to be?) and off you go. But nationalised businesses of the 70s and 80s were riddled with bad management, waste and moved at glacial speed as there was no pressure to get stuff done, the idea of a job for life where you did sod all and couldnt be sacked wasnt far from the truth. We need them to be efficient, move quickly, drive change - get better as you say they are crap now. Setting KPIs and attracting management that can do that is the big thing, the KPIs will be need to be very detailed by process and operation not just 4 or 5 at the top level...

And of course there will be more investment needed than returns in the first decades, as they have so far only taken out what they have borrowed, but much more investment is needed. Are they going to borrow that independently at market rates or from the govt - where debt as a percent of GDP is as high as it has been since the war?

So east isn’t it - just get somenKPIs

Setting KPI and getting the right management is the big thing


So you dont agree with my suggestion of good management and use of KPI - but suggest good management and use of KPI is the answer?

[isleaiw1]

Wooden Spoon, on 09 July 2023 - 04:18 PM, said:

So east isn’t it - just get somenKPIs

Setting KPI and getting the right management is the big thing


So you dont agree with my suggestion of good management and use of KPI - but suggest good management and use of KPI is the answer?

No I dont agree its easy, particularly with a public sector org where the KPIs will be influenced by politicians and the pay available wont compete with the private sector yet it will need the best of the best....

All business is about good management and understanding where it is going right and not going so well, its hardly a rocket science solution!

[Wooden Spoon]

isleaiw1, on 09 July 2023 - 09:41 PM, said:

No I dont agree its easy, particularly with a public sector org where the KPIs will be influenced by politicians and the pay available wont compete with the private sector yet it will need the best of the best....

All business is about good management and understanding where it is going right and not going so well, its hardly a rocket science solution!

Serious question here Ian - if the pay needs to be the best of the best to get the right people, why is the service so crap and the company being crushed under the mountain of debt?

If these people are so good in the private sector how have Thames water got into this state?

I’d suggest it’s pure greed and dividends paid out under pressure from shareholders.


Not the best model is it

[Manfred Archie Mac Gerbil]

The Earl of Chesterfield said:

1688583544[/url]' post='1752218']
The water companies were sold debt free.

One of the many benefits enjoyed by often foreign investors who've since pocketed billions...

Thatcher sold the utility companies (and loadsa council houses to boot) so the Tory government could pay for the bribe (pay rise) to the Servicemen and Old Bill thus helping to fund the Falkland’s conflict and miners strike respectively (also bagging them crafty Tories a few elections in the process), they made a few quid themselves buying shares at rock bottom prices very similar to when they flogged off Royal Mail a few years ago and the Royal Mail share scheme was a con right from the off, selling shares at rock bottom prices to only a select number of people (their pals would you believe), totally corrupt government running a totally corrupt country . This was in the 80s and British corruption has hit even greater heights since then (worse than Russia)

The way I see it (and I’m very fair), any company that’s been privatised and runs up debts totalling X amount of £ (such as Thames Water and many others) needs to be re nationalised immediately for the greater good of the British Economy.

If I was in the shadow cabinet I’d make the above my number 1 policy as it’s a definite vote winner for the common man, just my opinion of course but Starmer needs to start getting tough on corruption and playing them Tories at their own nasty games.