[isleaiw1]

 Wooden Spoon, on 10 July 2023 - 02:17 AM, said:

Serious question here Ian - if the pay needs to be the best of the best to get the right people, why is the service so crap and the company being crushed under the mountain of debt?

If these people are so good in the private sector how have Thames water got into this state?

I’d suggest it’s pure greed and dividends paid out under pressure from shareholders.


Not the best model is it

Private ownership per se, some of them seem to be doing well and our pensions will be grateful for that as that is where they are invested!

Or Private ownership of a business that needs chronic levels of investment to replace ageing assets yet still return a return to the people that own it, that is more of a challenge. But the alternative is the govt spends all of that money - whilst spending more on the NHS, education, social care, roads, rail, power stations, infrastructure etc etc. Where is all that money coming from? We've proved public ownership and private finance doesnt work too well (as shown by the many PFI initiatives that are now costing an arm and a leg), so what is the solution...? Borrow more? Raise more in taxes? given our current debt to GDP position, we run the risk of trashing our debt rating and making borrowing too expensive. Who is going to pay the taxes? If its companies they will pee off overseas and use transfer pricing to legitimately move profits elsewhere. Individuals? They might do the same... or if they have less to spend then spend less, causing unemployment and more welfare costs, raising less in taxes and increasing debt...

How would you solve that problem? just saying nationalisation isnt a solution... its one step on a long road that has to be thought through.

[Wooden Spoon]

 isleaiw1, on 10 July 2023 - 09:59 AM, said:

Private ownership per se, some of them seem to be doing well and our pensions will be grateful for that as that is where they are invested!

Or Private ownership of a business that needs chronic levels of investment to replace ageing assets yet still return a return to the people that own it, that is more of a challenge. But the alternative is the govt spends all of that money - whilst spending more on the NHS, education, social care, roads, rail, power stations, infrastructure etc etc. Where is all that money coming from? We've proved public ownership and private finance doesnt work too well (as shown by the many PFI initiatives that are now costing an arm and a leg), so what is the solution...? Borrow more? Raise more in taxes? given our current debt to GDP position, we run the risk of trashing our debt rating and making borrowing too expensive. Who is going to pay the taxes? If its companies they will pee off overseas and use transfer pricing to legitimately move profits elsewhere. Individuals? They might do the same... or if they have less to spend then spend less, causing unemployment and more welfare costs, raising less in taxes and increasing debt...

How would you solve that problem? just saying nationalisation isnt a solution... its one step on a long road that has to be thought through.

I’d nationalise services where we can. Train franchises not renewed for example, and take over Thames water when it falls over under the debt mountain - like we did with the banks.


I’d run them with an independent regulator such as we do now the ORR with powers suitable for the industry, I’d have KPIs to monitor performance. And instead of dividends I’d have investment. What was paid out now funds infrastructure

[isleaiw1]

 Wooden Spoon, on 11 July 2023 - 12:23 AM, said:

I’d nationalise services where we can. Train franchises not renewed for example, and take over Thames water when it falls over under the debt mountain - like we did with the banks.


I’d run them with an independent regulator such as we do now the ORR with powers suitable for the industry, I’d have KPIs to monitor performance. And instead of dividends I’d have investment. What was paid out now funds infrastructure

So you take on train services that are losing money and need investment. You take on a water industry that makes money but nowhere near enough to fund all of the investment needed. Where is the money coming from? Even Rachel Reeves doesnt think Labour can spend the money on nationalisation and give a credible case to the taxpayer. Rather encourage investment not distribution of profits by tax incentives to invest.... Whereas you would be putting everyone's tax up to invest.

I like Reeves. She talks sense.

[Wooden Spoon]

 isleaiw1, on 11 July 2023 - 09:03 AM, said:

So you take on train services that are losing money and need investment. You take on a water industry that makes money but nowhere near enough to fund all of the investment needed. Where is the money coming from? Even Rachel Reeves doesnt think Labour can spend the money on nationalisation and give a credible case to the taxpayer. Rather encourage investment not distribution of profits by tax incentives to invest.... Whereas you would be putting everyone's tax up to invest.

I like Reeves. She talks sense.

Money saved from not paying dividends is a start.

[isleaiw1]

 Wooden Spoon, on 11 July 2023 - 08:27 PM, said:

Money saved from not paying dividends is a start.

Peanuts compared to what is needed to modernise the network...

[Wooden Spoon]

 isleaiw1, on 11 July 2023 - 09:19 PM, said:

Peanuts compared to what is needed to modernise the network...

I assume your talking about the railways here?


NR is state owned so no change there.


TOCs can let the franchise run down and take over at no cost- virgin for example don’t own the trains they rent them - it’s a common model the TOCs use


Thames water are effectively bankrupt so we’d have to bail them out anyway?

[isleaiw1]

 Wooden Spoon, on 11 July 2023 - 10:42 PM, said:

I assume your talking about the railways here?


NR is state owned so no change there.


TOCs can let the franchise run down and take over at no cost- virgin for example don’t own the trains they rent them - it’s a common model the TOCs use


Thames water are effectively bankrupt so we’d have to bail them out anyway?

The water network...

Thames raised £750m from shareholders, so hardly bankrupt. But if they do go bust agree they can just be taken over, the debts written off and start afresh - with hundreds of billions of infrastructure to be paid for. Who is borrowing that as the govt cant raise money from shareholders...

[fishini]

 isleaiw1, on 12 July 2023 - 06:32 AM, said:

The water network...

Thames raised £750m from shareholders, so hardly bankrupt. But if they do go bust agree they can just be taken over, the debts written off and start afresh - with hundreds of billions of infrastructure to be paid for. Who is borrowing that as the govt cant raise money from shareholders...

But the water company has had the money but gave it away to shareholders

[Wooden Spoon]

 fishini, on 12 July 2023 - 05:20 PM, said:

But the water company has had the money but gave it away to shareholders

And that is the key point

[isleaiw1]

 fishini, on 12 July 2023 - 05:20 PM, said:

But the water company has had the money but gave it away to shareholders

Gave it away? Remember that interest you get from putting your money in the NS&I, well dividends are the interest that shareholders get for putting their money in companies. You cant expect otherwise.

It would be great if you could just take money from people and give nothing back, but apparently that is only for nationalised industries - who historically have p*ssed it up the wall with an appalling service and for zero benefit.

I mean in some cases they used it to pay bonuses to produce a product they couldnt sell as they had no customers for it.... genius!

[Wooden Spoon]

 isleaiw1, on 12 July 2023 - 09:27 PM, said:

Gave it away? Remember that interest you get from putting your money in the NS&I, well dividends are the interest that shareholders get for putting their money in companies. You cant expect otherwise.

It would be great if you could just take money from people and give nothing back, but apparently that is only for nationalised industries - who historically have p*ssed it up the wall with an appalling service and for zero benefit.

I mean in some cases they used it to pay bonuses to produce a product they couldnt sell as they had no customers for it.... genius!

What was the sale price at the time compared to the real market value? I’d say “gave away” was an excellent way to describe sake of the utilities, including BP, BT

This post has been edited by Wooden Spoon: 13 July 2023 - 08:45 AM

[isleaiw1]

 Wooden Spoon, on 13 July 2023 - 08:44 AM, said:

What was the sale price at the time compared to the real market value? I’d say “gave away” was an excellent way to describe sake of the utilities, including BP, BT

I'd agree with some of that - I didnt buy any as I couldnt see how I could buy something I already owned. But again the value for sale would depend on future liabilities to get the network (Telephone, water) up to date so doubt it would have been huge for one of those two..especially with all the debt it had!

[Wooden Spoon]

Interview with Fergal Sharkey.


He’s involved with a clean river organisation.


Question - to fix the problem, and there is a problem it would take a massive amount of investment in new sewers and water treatment plants and that would mean a huge increase in bills. In 30 years, if you remove dividends the bills paid has provided the funds to upgrade the network, but this money has been paid out as dividends

Answer the water companies have, since private ownership had a statutory obligation to maintain and build water treatment systems capable of effectively dealing with the contents of those sewers

Question - who’s going to pay for that?


The water companies. They have paid £72,000,000,000 in share dividends. They have taken in billions of pounds on in debts. But spend on infrastructure has been small.




Another win for privatisation

[Wooden Spoon]

So now the tories not only let the privatisation scandal of dividends go, we’re now seeing a relaxation of regulations which allow these companies to dump into the rivers



Win win for shareholders. Lose for the consumer, bill payer,!everyone


Scandalously the tories are spinning this as a result of decades of cheap bills after70 billions in share dividends



A win for thatchers privatised companies right therr

This post has been edited by Wooden Spoon: 29 August 2023 - 09:58 PM

[Goku]

https://www.bbc.co.u...siness-67696645

The key is to privatise the profits and nationalise the losses you see

[Wooden Spoon]

 Goku, on 13 December 2023 - 10:54 AM, said:

privatise the profits and nationalise the losses

Oi that’s my line!