[Wooden Spoon]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 07 May 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

To answer your question, Ian, that's up to the electorate.

Which includes the 'BB' membership.

As far as I know Labour are still the largest party in terms of membership. Thousands upon thousands of councilors are still working in communities like mine. Organising food banks which're busier than ever. Helping members of the public with seemingly mundane issues which're important to them. Dealing with complaints despite ever decreasing funds from central government.

Vital yet often unrecognised work.

Y'know, the kinda stuff the tories never do unless there's a photo op. Infact I don't think I've ever seen a tory leaflet let alone candidate in Birdholme.

An area of ten or more thousand people.

However it looks like the public don't want that. They're more impressed by populism. Cheery thumbs ups from a bloke they wouldn't wanna live next door to. Wouldn't let give a lift to their wife. Wouldn't want looking after their parents. Wouldn't want running their hospital.

And certainly wouldn't trust to tell the truth.

Why? Well the message seems to be they want to give Labour a kicking for taking them for granted. They seem to blame THEM for shortcomings in their lives. Rather than the tories who've been in power for more than a decade. They want change...but turn to that same party to deliver that change.

Sorry, and folk can accuse me of 'not listening' all they want, but I simply can't understand that.

Nor can I understand the idea that Bozo's better than SKS BECAUSE he's morally bankrupt. BECAUSE he's so disgustingly flawed. BECAUSE that makes him somehow human. I'm human yet I've never plumbed his depths, though. Nor have my family. Have you? Has anyone else reading this?

So why the different standards for an ex Etonian.

Then I keep reading 'whataboutery' from supposedly decent people...no, that's not fair - from people I KNOW are decent, being far more critical of what Labour did ten or twenty years ago than what the most incompetent government in living memory are doing now. Turning a blind eye to brazen corruption involving taxpayers' money - THEIR MONEY - whilst demanding the opposition jump through hoops to gain their vote.

Or calling out the current set of crooks but saying Labour aren't an electable alternative.

Either way there was an interesting call from a bloke ont' radio this morning. He essentially said all folk're really bothered about is their house, car, holiday and occasional neet out. And the tories' genius has been convincing punters Labour somehow wanna take them away and give 'em to undeserving scroungers. Cynically turning compassion against those advocating it - we've all heard the 'woak/snowflake/nanny state' sneers - and promoting selfishness.

Chuck in all that flag and statue hugging to promote themselves as the patriotic party, as compared with those daring to suggest the British Empire may, just possibly, have been less than wonderful for some populations, and I think he had a point.

Before we even mention the total coincidence of gunships in the Channel.

Anyway, I'm ranting. To return to your header I'm gonna say no, the Labour Party isn't finished. Infact I'll turn to Murdoch's Sun for support. Y'see I vividly remember a front page dubbing the tories an ex party. A characature of then leader Hague, one of several seen off by Tony Blair, portrayed as the parrot from the famous Monty Python sketch.

Yet here we are. Twenty years later and the tories running rampant. They day a week's a long time in politics, and Labour's got another three years...

To be fair to SKS the huge success of the vaccine roll out and the potential light at the end of the tunnel have put a positive spotlight on this dreadful government


Honestly I don’t know what to say about yesterday’s Hartlepool result. Mid term so you’d expect the normal “put the boot in” to the sitting government but it didn’t happen. Even the local/council elections didn’t see Labour move forward.


Maybe SKS should employ someone like Mandleson to reset things and start from scratch regarding policies.


Put “radical” on the back burner and thin things out. A clear simple even lightweight set of policies that are easy to convey, and have a clear and simple message. But something positive, something that will make people nod thier heads with a few simple sentences.

[azul]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 07 May 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

To answer your question, Ian, that's up to the electorate.

Which includes the 'BB' membership.

As far as I know Labour are still the largest party in terms of membership. Thousands upon thousands of councilors are still working in communities like mine. Organising food banks which're busier than ever. Helping members of the public with seemingly mundane issues which're important to them. Dealing with complaints despite ever decreasing funds from central government.

Vital yet often unrecognised work.

Y'know, the kinda stuff the tories never do unless there's a photo op. Infact I don't think I've ever seen a tory leaflet let alone candidate in Birdholme.

An area of ten or more thousand people.

However it looks like the public don't want that. They're more impressed by populism. Cheery thumbs ups from a bloke they wouldn't wanna live next door to. Wouldn't let give a lift to their wife. Wouldn't want looking after their parents. Wouldn't want running their hospital.

And certainly wouldn't trust to tell the truth.

Why? Well the message seems to be they want to give Labour a kicking for taking them for granted. They seem to blame THEM for shortcomings in their lives. Rather than the tories who've been in power for more than a decade. They want change...but turn to that same party to deliver that change.

Sorry, and folk can accuse me of 'not listening' all they want, but I simply can't understand that.

Nor can I understand the idea that Bozo's better than SKS BECAUSE he's morally bankrupt. BECAUSE he's so disgustingly flawed. BECAUSE that makes him somehow human. I'm human yet I've never plumbed his depths, though. Nor have my family. Have you? Has anyone else reading this?

So why the different standards for an ex Etonian.

Then I keep reading 'whataboutery' from supposedly decent people...no, that's not fair - from people I KNOW are decent, being far more critical of what Labour did ten or twenty years ago than what the most incompetent government in living memory are doing now. Turning a blind eye to brazen corruption involving taxpayers' money - THEIR MONEY - whilst demanding the opposition jump through hoops to gain their vote.

Or calling out the current set of crooks but saying Labour aren't an electable alternative.

Either way there was an interesting call from a bloke ont' radio this morning. He essentially said all folk're really bothered about is their house, car, holiday and occasional neet out. And the tories' genius has been convincing punters Labour somehow wanna take them away and give 'em to undeserving scroungers. Cynically turning compassion against those advocating it - we've all heard the 'woak/snowflake/nanny state' sneers - and promoting selfishness.

Chuck in all that flag and statue hugging to promote themselves as the patriotic party, as compared with those daring to suggest the British Empire may, just possibly, have been less than wonderful for some populations, and I think he had a point.

Before we even mention the total coincidence of gunships in the Channel.

Anyway, I'm ranting. To return to your header I'm gonna say no, the Labour Party isn't finished. Infact I'll turn to Murdoch's Sun for support. Y'see I vividly remember a front page dubbing the tories an ex party. A characature of then leader Hague, one of several seen off by Tony Blair, portrayed as the parrot from the famous Monty Python sketch.

Yet here we are. Twenty years later and the tories running rampant. They say a week's a long time in politics, and Labour's got another three years...

It is frustrating - time to turn the TV off and concentrate on the playoffs (at least for a week or two)

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 07 May 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

To answer your question, Ian, that's up to the electorate.

Which includes the 'BB' membership.

As far as I know Labour are still the largest party in terms of membership. Thousands upon thousands of councilors are still working in communities like mine. Organising food banks which're busier than ever. Helping members of the public with seemingly mundane issues which're important to them. Dealing with complaints despite ever decreasing funds from central government.

Vital yet often unrecognised work.

Y'know, the kinda stuff the tories never do unless there's a photo op. Infact I don't think I've ever seen a tory leaflet let alone candidate in Birdholme.

An area of ten or more thousand people.

However it looks like the public don't want that. They're more impressed by populism. Cheery thumbs ups from a bloke they wouldn't wanna live next door to. Wouldn't let give a lift to their wife. Wouldn't want looking after their parents. Wouldn't want running their hospital.

And certainly wouldn't trust to tell the truth.

Why? Well the message seems to be they want to give Labour a kicking for taking them for granted. They seem to blame THEM for shortcomings in their lives. Rather than the tories who've been in power for more than a decade. They want change...but turn to that same party to deliver that change.

Sorry, and folk can accuse me of 'not listening' all they want, but I simply can't understand that.

Nor can I understand the idea that Bozo's better than SKS BECAUSE he's morally bankrupt. BECAUSE he's so disgustingly flawed. BECAUSE that makes him somehow human. I'm human yet I've never plumbed his depths, though. Nor have my family. Have you? Has anyone else reading this?

So why the different standards for an ex Etonian.

Then I keep reading 'whataboutery' from supposedly decent people...no, that's not fair - from people I KNOW are decent, being far more critical of what Labour did ten or twenty years ago than what the most incompetent government in living memory are doing now. Turning a blind eye to brazen corruption involving taxpayers' money - THEIR MONEY - whilst demanding the opposition jump through hoops to gain their vote.

Or calling out the current set of crooks but saying Labour aren't an electable alternative.

Either way there was an interesting call from a bloke ont' radio this morning. He essentially said all folk're really bothered about is their house, car, holiday and occasional neet out. And the tories' genius has been convincing punters Labour somehow wanna take them away and give 'em to undeserving scroungers. Cynically turning compassion against those advocating it - we've all heard the 'woak/snowflake/nanny state' sneers - and promoting selfishness.

Chuck in all that flag and statue hugging to promote themselves as the patriotic party, as compared with those daring to suggest the British Empire may, just possibly, have been less than wonderful for some populations, and I think he had a point.

Before we even mention the total coincidence of gunships in the Channel.

Anyway, I'm ranting. To return to your header I'm gonna say no, the Labour Party isn't finished. Infact I'll turn to Murdoch's Sun for support. Y'see I vividly remember a front page dubbing the tories an ex party. A characature of then leader Hague, one of several seen off by Tony Blair, portrayed as the parrot from the famous Monty Python sketch.

Yet here we are. Twenty years later and the tories running rampant. They say a week's a long time in politics, and Labour's got another three years...

Its a lot of words but I think it says the Tories have a better PR machine and the electorate are stupid.

That could be Labour's problems in a nutshell - they have forgotten that marketing matters (you may not like that and I certainly dont but it seems brand is an important element in life today - and remember Blair won as new Labour...) and they blame the electorate for their own failings....

I also dont think its the end of Labour but I wouldnt be surprised to see a split between the one that Momentum and the Union leaders back and the one the public will vote for. New Labour anyone...?

[calvin plummers socks]

stevie_b, on 07 May 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

Well, they could start by taking the concerns of women seriously. The pandering to the alarming rise in transgender ideology – and calling women like me bigots when we dare to say that we don't welcome male people into our private spaces or sport - is potentially alienating 50% of their target market.

I'm fairly tough as a woman goes. I mean, I'm still on here, aren't I? But .... I found it fairly disconcerting at the snooker on Sunday when I discovered that the female toilets had become unisex for the evening. I get that the audience was probably 80% male but ..... I felt quite out of place surrounded by men in what should be a female space.

I've stated before - and it remains my truth - that I have no issue at all with transgender people. However, a transgender woman is male; you cannot change your biological sex, no matter what you cut off or what hormones you take. I'd happily be bezzie mates with a transgender woman but ... I do NOT welcome her into my female spaces, neither do I wish to come up against her in the front row of a female rugby scrum. The same goes for you guys, too. Men often have absolutely no concept of how much stronger and scarier than women they are.

Labour is doing little to dissuade men being considered women, simply because they say they are. And lots to make those of us who object feel like we're evil and exclusionary for doing so.

They're not listening to women and that is my reason for not voting Labour right now

That’s your reason for not voting Labour?
Really?
Jesus

[isleaiw1]

DEATH, on 07 May 2021 - 03:32 PM, said:

To be fair to SKS the huge success of the vaccine roll out and the potential light at the end of the tunnel have put a positive spotlight on this dreadful government


Honestly I don’t know what to say about yesterday’s Hartlepool result. Mid term so you’d expect the normal “put the boot in” to the sitting government but it didn’t happen. Even the local/council elections didn’t see Labour move forward.


Maybe SKS should employ someone like Mandleson to reset things and start from scratch regarding policies.


Put “radical” on the back burner and thin things out. A clear simple even lightweight set of policies that are easy to convey, and have a clear and simple message. But something positive, something that will make people nod thier heads with a few simple sentences.

I think there is something in the last two bits. Do a Tony, you might call it. Marketing, sound bites, character, policies can be a bit lightweight, the public will only likely read the headlines if that....

Oh and ideally the Unions would back him to do that and not throw out stories about more radicalism.... that's not going to win votes in the home counties let alone the former red wall, and they need both to win...

if they want to be radical then be radical in overhauling things that have been tinkered with for years and are now a mess.... Income tax and NI, Corporation Tax and the self employed, VAT and rates and what it applies to.....

But trying to change the electoral method... not sure that's a vote winner.

[Mr Mercury]

calvin plummers socks, on 07 May 2021 - 04:07 PM, said:

That’s your reason for not voting Labour?
Really?
Jesus

Pretty good reason if that’s her choice.

[azul]

isleaiw1, on 07 May 2021 - 04:09 PM, said:

I think there is something in the last two bits. Do a Tony, you might call it. Marketing, sound bites, character, policies can be a bit lightweight, the public will only likely read the headlines if that....

Oh and ideally the Unions would back him to do that and not throw out stories about more radicalism.... that's not going to win votes in the home counties let alone the former red wall, and they need both to win...

if they want to be radical then be radical in overhauling things that have been tinkered with for years and are now a mess.... Income tax and NI, Corporation Tax and the self employed, VAT and rates and what it applies to.....

But trying to change the electoral method... not sure that's a vote winner.

Are saying dumb down the message so the electorate can understand? Sounds like something the metropolitan elite would come up with

[calvin plummers socks]

Mr Mercury, on 07 May 2021 - 04:46 PM, said:

Pretty good reason if that’s her choice.

She’s deluded if she believes that’s though!

Too much Daily Mail or Twitter I reckon.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

isleaiw1, on 07 May 2021 - 04:05 PM, said:

Its a lot of words but I think it says the Tories have a better PR machine and the electorate are stupid.

That could be Labour's problems in a nutshell - they have forgotten that marketing matters (you may not like that and I certainly dont but it seems brand is an important element in life today - and remember Blair won as new Labour...) and they blame the electorate for their own failings....

I also dont think its the end of Labour but I wouldnt be surprised to see a split between the one that Momentum and the Union leaders back and the one the public will vote for. New Labour anyone...?

Yup, the tories have traditionally been far, well, for want of a better word 'slicker' than Labour. We hear it every day during every interview from every stooge. Infact all last week it was a never ending mantra of "the public aren't interested in sleaze, they're only interested in vaccines'.

But that's probably because they have millions upon millions more than any other party to spend on such stuff.

And why is that, Ian? Why do wealthy individuals and companies spend fortunes funding the tories? For the benefit of ordinary folk or favours for themselves? Why do billionaires buy loss making media platforms. Why do they spend massive amounts manipulating public opinion? Why did Bozo place much more importance on bullying the BBC than addressing the pandemic?

Could it possibly be because it pays off?

The electorate aren't stupid, pal. However advertising works...

[stevie_b]

calvin plummers socks, on 07 May 2021 - 04:52 PM, said:

She’s deluded if she believes that’s though!

Too much Daily Mail or Twitter I reckon.

She isn't deluded. And for the record CPS, I've never been anything but polite to you.

I don't read the Daily Mail and I'm banned from Twitter for taking the view that men cannot become women.

ETA This is not a lone cry in the dark. If I'm deluded, then many women are deluded. Lots of female Labour voters have put their X somewhere else this time around.

You're not a fan of women, are you?

This post has been edited by stevie_b: 07 May 2021 - 05:18 PM

[Wanderer]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 07 May 2021 - 03:13 PM, said:

To answer your question, Ian, that's up to the electorate.

Which includes the 'BB' membership.

As far as I know Labour are still the largest party in terms of membership. Thousands upon thousands of councilors are still working in communities like mine. Organising food banks which're busier than ever. Helping members of the public with seemingly mundane issues which're important to them. Dealing with complaints despite ever decreasing funds from central government.

Vital yet often unrecognised work.

Y'know, the kinda stuff the tories never do unless there's a photo op. Infact I don't think I've ever seen a tory leaflet let alone candidate in Birdholme.

An area of ten or more thousand people.

However it looks like the public don't want that. They're more impressed by populism. Cheery thumbs ups from a bloke they wouldn't wanna live next door to. Wouldn't let give a lift to their wife. Wouldn't want looking after their parents. Wouldn't want running their hospital.

And certainly wouldn't trust to tell the truth.

Why? Well the message seems to be they want to give Labour a kicking for taking them for granted. They seem to blame THEM for shortcomings in their lives. Rather than the tories who've been in power for more than a decade. They want change...but turn to that same party to deliver that change.

Sorry, and folk can accuse me of 'not listening' all they want, but I simply can't understand that.

Nor can I understand the idea that Bozo's better than SKS BECAUSE he's morally bankrupt. BECAUSE he's so disgustingly flawed. BECAUSE that makes him somehow human. I'm human yet I've never plumbed his depths, though. Nor have my family. Have you? Has anyone else reading this?

So why the different standards for an ex Etonian.

Then I keep reading 'whataboutery' from supposedly decent people...no, that's not fair - from people I KNOW are decent, being far more critical of what Labour did ten or twenty years ago than what the most incompetent government in living memory are doing now. Turning a blind eye to brazen corruption involving taxpayers' money - THEIR MONEY - whilst demanding the opposition jump through hoops to gain their vote.

Or calling out the current set of crooks but saying Labour aren't an electable alternative.

Either way there was an interesting call from a bloke ont' radio this morning. He essentially said all folk're really bothered about is their house, car, holiday and occasional neet out. And the tories' genius has been convincing punters Labour somehow wanna take them away and give 'em to undeserving scroungers. Cynically turning compassion against those advocating it - we've all heard the 'woak/snowflake/nanny state' sneers - and promoting selfishness.

Chuck in all that flag and statue hugging to promote themselves as the patriotic party, as compared with those daring to suggest the British Empire may, just possibly, have been less than wonderful for some populations, and I think he had a point.

Before we even mention the total coincidence of gunships in the Channel.

Anyway, I'm ranting. To return to your header I'm gonna say no, the Labour Party isn't finished. Infact I'll turn to Murdoch's Sun for support. Y'see I vividly remember a front page dubbing the tories an ex party. A characature of then leader Hague, one of several seen off by Tony Blair, portrayed as the parrot from the famous Monty Python sketch.

Yet here we are. Twenty years later and the tories running rampant. They say a week's a long time in politics, and Labour's got another three years...

The trouble with the Labour Party is they disagree with every decision the government makes but DONT come up with any alternatives. If it was left to Labour we would still be begging for the E.U. to send us some of their vaccines. Long live Boris 👍👍. Just think Dianne Abbott could be controlling our finances 👎👎

[Mr Mercury]

Front bench Shadow Defence minister, Labour MP Khalid Mahmood, resigns his position with a broadside at the party.

“A London based bourgeoisie with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors has effectively captured the party, a bit of superficial flag waving is not going to fix that. We have to realise the patriotism of these voters runs far deeper than that!”

Halle...effing ...lujah. At last someone with the balls to say it.

This post has been edited by Mr Mercury: 07 May 2021 - 05:37 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

azul, on 07 May 2021 - 04:48 PM, said:

Are saying dumb down the message so the electorate can understand? Sounds like something the metropolitan elite would come up with

Starmer today said this -

Very often we have been talking to ourselves instead of to the country and we have lost the trust of working people, particularly in places like Hartlepool


Source is the daily mirror




Maybe the penny is dropping, at least in some Labour quarters.




https://www.google.c...ur-24062394.amp

[Wooden Spoon]

Mr Mercury, on 07 May 2021 - 05:30 PM, said:

Front bench Shadow Defence minister, Labour MP Khalid Mahmood, resigns his position with a broadside at the party.

“A London based bourgeoisie with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors has effectively captured the party, a bit of superficial flag waving is not going to fix that. We have to realise the patriotism of these voters runs far deeper than that!”

Halle...effing ...lujah. At last someone with the balls to say it.

https://www.google.c...ng-20551438.amp






The loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused more on pulling down Churchill’s statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world. No wonder it is doing better among rich urban liberals and young university graduates than it is amongst the most important part of its traditional electoral coalition, the working-class."

This post has been edited by DEATH: 07 May 2021 - 06:04 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

“Electoral reality shows that the Labour Party are not aligned with the interests of the voters.”



“We had a lot shared heritage with former industrial towns like Hartlepool and it’s a body blow that the people their have parted ways us.”


“We need to realign our priorities to those of these voters”


“People have told us that labour is talking to itself, and talking about interests the serve the Labour Party, and not talking about the interests of working people. We’re talking about those at the very bottom, we’re talking about taxing the top 1% but we’re not talking to or about the ordinary working man somewhere in the middle.


“We need to align with the economic realities. We’ve been told we talk too much about contemporary cultural issues and not the hard economic realities that the working man faced”


Those are the kinds of things I’m talking about, this what SKS is talking about and we’re going to hear much more of this in the coming weeks.


“The public have told us we’ve drifted away from their priorities”


Peter Kyle, shadow justice minister on BBC NEWS.

[Wooden Spoon]

Maybe, just maybe, this is the reality check that labour needed.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Quaker, on 07 May 2021 - 05:39 PM, said:

You just don’t get it Chris do you?

It’s absolutely pointless engaging with you as you don’t see the wood for the trees. You only want to listen to thing you agree with.

Mark - your every post is that I or Labour isn't listening or doesn't get something.

So please, as I'm obviously too thick or deluded or hard line to understand - clearly spell out this thing I'm not getting or listening to.

And if possible could it be slightly more comprehensive than a couple of emoticons?

Ta.

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 07 May 2021 - 08:22 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

The Earl of Chesterfield said:

1620418124[/url]' post='1580303']
Mark - your every post is that I or Labour isn't listening or doesn't get something.

So please, as I'm obviously too thick or deluded or hard line to understand - clearly spell out this thing I'm not getting or listening to.

Read the book “beyond the red wall”

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 07 May 2021 - 08:08 PM, said:

Mark - your every post is that I or Labour isn't listening or doesn't get something.

So please, as I'm obviously too thick or deluded or hard line to understand - clearly spell out this thing I'm not getting or listening to.

Post #52 on this thread.
I think this chap speaks for millions of once lifelong Labour voters who now quite freely vote Tory. I completely understand your stance and ethos, it’s something you feel strongly about and won’t deviate from, but millions of life long voters don’t share your view. And they are the ones, like myself, Labour need to return to them, and it’s just not happening.