[The Earl of Chesterfield]

isleaiw1, on 28 October 2019 - 07:08 PM, said:

Chris

You say local parties wield the power. I have a friend who is diary secretary to a long serving labour MP in West Yorkshire. He is seriously concerned about being deselected because he follows Labour policies, not Momentum policies to use his words.

The “labour” party now isn’t that party that supported working class folks of the past. It’s a party that supports left wing ideals, not the working man.

The Momentum party will be destroyed in middle England and will be lucky to come 4th in some constituencies.... To be behind in the polls when the competition is the worst ever government / PM ever is a sign of how badly they are perceived.

Lib Dem’s for me as the party that have been clear, consistent and pretty united in what they stand for.

I can only speak from experience Ian, what I see with my own eyes at meetings.

I'm sure there are constituencies that've been infiltrated in the way you speak (just as local tory parties have been infiltrated by right wing UKIP/ERG style extremists), but if 'left wing ideals' include renationalising public services instead of handing subsidies to private companies, if they mean putting proper doctors and nurses back onto wards instead of the just-out-of-college kids a friend of mine was forced to help during a recent stay at the Royal, if they mean making wealthy avoiders pay the same taxes as the rest of us and if they mean preventing the exploitation of working people, customers and the environment then those policies have proved pretty positive with the public.

As for the Lib-Dems they are and always have been the opportunist party. Locally they'll leap aboard any passing bandwagon. They'll claim any positive as their own. They'll promise one thing on one doorstep, another on another and something entirely different elsewhere. I'm sure many Chesterfield residents will remember their 'hundred pound off your council tax' promise a couple of elections ago. Yet it soon vanished amidst talk of small print and blame gaming when they actually won. The years - that's YEARS - of constituent's issues that Toby Pekins inherited because his predecessor had simply ignored them were disgusting to behold, too. Nationally they're led by a Swinson who walked through the same voting lobby as Tories to endorse tax cuts for millionaires yet the bedroom tax for others. She supported huge cuts to public services, benefits for the disabled and essential community projects. She agreed with council after council being forced to close facilities which largely led to the care crisis seen today. Then there're the tens of thousands fewer police and firefighters her party's partly responsible for too. Not forgetting the never-to-be-forgotten U-turn over tuition fees, of course.

I get why many people can't vote for Corbyn. It breaks my heart to see this lying, scheming, cynical, underhand and utterly untrustworthy Tory Party enjoying a large lead in the polls simply because the Labour leader's so utterly inept. And believe me, there're many, many Labour members feeling exactly the same. Infact there's part of me that almost wants a heavy defeat to see a return to sense, however I genuinely fear for the kind of Trumpian, post truth, law of the free market jungle society that might appear in the meantime...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 29 October 2019 - 05:47 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 29 October 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

I can only speak from experience Ian, what I see with my own eyes at meetings.

I'm sure there are constituencies that've been infiltrated in the way you speak (just as local tory parties have been infiltrated by right wing UKIP/ERG style extremists), but if 'left wing ideals' include renationalising public services instead of handing subsidies to private companies, if they mean putting proper doctors and nurses back onto wards instead of the just-out-of-college kids a friend of mine was forced to help during a recent stay at the Royal, if they mean making wealthy avoiders pay the same taxes as the rest of us and if they mean preventing the exploitation of working people, customers and the environment then those policies have proved pretty positive with the public.

As for the Lib-Dems they are and always have been the opportunist party. Locally they'll leap aboard any passing bandwagon. They'll claim any positive as their own. They'll promise one thing on one doorstep, another on another and something entirely different elsewhere. I'm sure many Chesterfield residents will remember their 'hundred pound off your council tax' promise a couple of elections ago. Yet it soon vanished amidst talk of small print and blame gaming when they actually won. The years - that's YEARS - of constituent's issues that Toby Pekins inherited because his predecessor had simply ignored them were disgusting to behold, too. Nationally they're led by a Swinson who walked through the same voting lobby as Tories to endorse tax cuts for millionaires yet the bedroom tax for others. She supported huge cuts to public services, benefits for the disabled and essential community projects. She agreed with council after council being forced to close facilities which largely led to the care crisis seen today. Then there're the tens of thousands fewer police and firefighters her party's partly responsible for too. Not forgetting the never-to-be-forgotten U-turn over tuition fees, of course.

I get why many people can't vote for Corbyn. It breaks my heart to see this lying, scheming, cynical, underhand and utterly untrustworthy Tory Party enjoying a large lead in the polls simply because the Labour leader's so utterly inept. And believe me, there're many, many Labour members feeling exactly the same. Infact there's part of me that almost wants a heavy defeat to see a return to sense, however I genuinely fear for the kind of Trumpian, post truth, law of the free market jungle society that might appear in the meantime...

Another post that it’s difficult to disagree with

[Johnnyspireite7]

SpireiteFitzy, on 28 October 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

Watching the debate on an early general election was painful. The house is in such disorder they wouldn't be able to agree on what the colour of a postbox is.

Few things to take away, the SNP don't want Brexit to happen because the Scottish people didn't vote for Brexit and so the referendum should not be respected up in Scotland. But in the same breath they are crying for another Independence referendum when the Scottish people have already voted to stay part of the Union. Yes Brexit has happened since then but the Tories had proposed Brexit back in 2012 so the Scottish people voted to stay even though they knew they run the possibility of leaving with us one day.

Jo Swinson is so arrogant it's unreal. 'We are happy to have a general election so we can take on both major parties and get a majority Lib Dem Government and on day one we will repeal Article 50'. So on your first day of been a democratically elected government you would trample on the democratic decision of 17 and a half million people in a heartbeat. I've fiercely been a remainer since the very start but the only fact that really matters is we are a DEMOCRACY, and democracy means majority rules, doesn't really matter how big or small but majority wins, it's the political system we've adopted for hundreds of years now and one that we keep trying to preach to other areas of the world to adopt, if we ignore it ourselves then everything we've ever said about how bad dictators are and how great democracy is becomes null and void, we show the world that democracy can be overturned and that is not supposed to be the case.

We had our chance to expose the lies, we had our chance to show that Johnson, Farage and Co were coming out with sensationalist headlines to rouse up national feeling even though they had no basis in truth, we had our chance to use reason to see that the correct decision, in my opinion of course, was made. But we failed. It all came out after the referendum when it was too late. The remain campaign as i've said before stooped to the same low grade, name calling tosh that vote leave came out with and that played right into their hands. Instead of putting their time and effort into exposing all the lies they peddled to the people to show them up as the fraudulent crooks they have been shown to be since they were just happy to peddle the whole, 'your narrow minded for not wanting to be inclusive of the EU'.

This country and it's parliament has become an embarrassment and everyone is laughing at us. It's about time parliament put aside all their pathetic squabbles and started showing some leadership because this country is going to need it in the near future when Brexit eventually happens. The only way we can restore our pride is if a deal which has been well thought out, well scrutunised, and protects the union can be agreed and then we power on forward to show that there is life outside of been an EU member.

On your point re the Scottish Referendum, one of the reasons that the Scottish people voted to remain as part of the union was the threat that if they gained independence that they wouldn't be admitted to the EU then low and behold we hold the EU referendum with the result that they get dragged out of the EU against their will. How does that fit with your rhetoric?

[dim view]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 29 October 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

I get why many people can't vote for Corbyn. It breaks my heart to see this lying, scheming, cynical, underhand and utterly untrustworthy Tory Party enjoying a large lead in the polls simply because the Labour leader's so utterly inept. And believe me, there're many, many Labour members feeling exactly the same. Infact there's part of me that almost wants a heavy defeat to see a return to sense, however I genuinely fear for the kind of Trumpian, post truth, law of the free market jungle society that might appear in the meantime...

How synonymous is that to our feelings about CFC?
Chillingly, I'd say.

Any road up, I need to talk to somebody about Labour's 'Credible' Brexit policy.

Is the party seriously arguing that they can retain the 'we have to abide by the result' and the 'I voted Brexit' punters by claiming that they can negotiate a better Brexit deal (as they would have to do to get my vote)?

To do that, their new Cabinet would have to include Brexiteers who would presumably then be assigned to the crack negotiating team.

It's pantomime season. They are going to lose tens of thousands of votes. I'd love to know what Perkins and Skinner think.

This post has been edited by dim view: 01 November 2019 - 07:26 AM

[Wooden Spoon]

dim view, on 01 November 2019 - 07:18 AM, said:

<br />How synonymous is that to our feelings about CFC?<br />Chillingly, I'd say. <br /><br />Any road up, I need to talk to somebody about Labour's 'Credible' Brexit policy.<br /><br />Is the party seriously arguing that they can retain the 'we have to abide by the result' and the 'I voted Brexit' punters by claiming that they can negotiate a better Brexit deal (as they would have to do to get my vote)?<br /><br />To do that, their new Cabinet would have to include Brexiteers who would presumably then be assigned to the crack negotiating team.<br /><br />It's pantomime season. They are going to lose tens of thousands of votes. I'd love to know what Perkins and Skinner think.<br />

They are on record as saying they would negotiate a deal to stay in the customs union (fair enough) then put the deal to the public in a second referendum. Thorn berry, Starmer and McDonnell all have said publicly a second referendum first before a G.E. - deal or remain, and then campaign against there own deal (a ludicrous position to negotiate from) for remain.






Thus ignoring the initial referendum.







On that basis I won’t be voting red, for the first time ever in a G.E.






I won’t vote Lid Dem because they have said they will revolt article 50. An affront to the democratic process IMO.






I won’t be voting for Boris.








So, I guess I’ve got to either spoil the paper or vote for an independent if there is one

[dim view]

DEATH, on 01 November 2019 - 08:51 AM, said:

They are on record as saying they would negotiate a deal to stay in the customs union (fair enough) then put the deal to the public in a second referendum. Thorn berry, Starmer and McDonnell all have said publicly a second referendum first before a G.E. - deal or remain, and then campaign against there own deal (a ludicrous position to negotiate from) for remain.

I know.

That is the best plan they can come up with to appease traditionally Labour voting democrats and brexiteers.

Corbyn will be humiliated in TV debate.

I think you have to vote Tory in the forlorn hope a) that the current deal, for better or worse, does not get trashed by a Johnson/Farage coalition ; and b) that Johnson will be replaced by a moderate at the earliest opportunity (probably as a result of being forced to resign).

[Wooden Spoon]

If Boris wins the election AND then gets his deal through I can’t see him being challenged by anyone in the party. He will claiming to be the man that United the party and delivered brexit. Win win for Boris.






As mayor, he didn’t really do much in London. The “Boris bikes” were red Ken’s idea and Boris came in just before implementation- so claimed the credit. Bendy busses the same. The olympics were a central government committee controlled event but as mayor Boris milked it.






I think the reason he was so popular as mayor was because he didn’t do anything much at all, just left things alone in general and as with the bikes, the new London overground were milked by him too.



He left people alone and they appreciated the lack of interference and I think he will be the same in number 10. He will announce lots of “initiatives” but actually do very little and let things tick over while saying you’ve never had it so good etc. And people only REALLY complain when things are bad. That’s his game.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

DEATH, on 01 November 2019 - 09:40 AM, said:

If Boris wins the election AND then gets his deal through I can’t see him being challenged by anyone in the party. He will claiming to be the man that United the party and delivered brexit. Win win for Boris.






As mayor, he didn’t really do much in London. The “Boris bikes” were red Ken’s idea and Boris came in just before implementation- so claimed the credit. Bendy busses the same. The olympics were a central government committee controlled event but as mayor Boris milked it.



I think the reason he was so popular as mayor was because he didn’t do anything much at all, just left things alone in general and as with the bikes, the new London overground were milked by him too.



He left people alone and they appreciated the lack of interference and I think he will be the same in number 10. He will announce lots of “initiatives” but actually do very little and let things tick over while saying you’ve never had it so good etc. And people only REALLY complain when things are bad. That’s his game.

Don't forget the bridge on which he blew tens of millions yet not a brick was laid.

Though some of those who received some of those millions found places in some of their companies for some of Johnson's mates (sound familiar?).

There were those water cannons, too.

Which soon became Johnson's contribution to recycling, of course.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dim view, on 01 November 2019 - 09:22 AM, said:

I know.

That is the best plan they can come up with to appease traditionally Labour voting democrats and brexiteers.

Corbyn will be humiliated in TV debate.

I think you have to vote Tory in the forlorn hope a) that the current deal, for better or worse, does not get trashed by a Johnson/Farage coalition ; and b) that Johnson will be replaced by a moderate at the earliest opportunity (probably as a result of being forced to resign).

Corbyn won't be humiliated because Johnson won't take part in any one-to-one debates.

There are no more moderates in the Tory Party. Or at least nowhere near enough to dump a Johnson the ERG have just performed Olympian u-turns of hypocrisy to support (his deal dumps a DUP they swore to defend).

[Wooden Spoon]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 01 November 2019 - 09:46 PM, said:

Don't forget the bridge on which he blew tens of millions yet not a brick was laid.

Though some of those who received some of those millions found places in some of their companies for some of Johnson's mates (sound familiar?).

There were those water cannons, too.

Which soon became Johnson's contribution to recycling, of course.

Ah yes the water cannon, I’d forgot them. Didn’t seem to bother Teflon Boris or his popularity mind.




It’s disgraceful that the worst Tory government for a generation isn’t troubled by the worst opposition for a generation and possibly the worst parliament in living memory

[Mr Mercury]

Mr Mercury, on 22 October 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

Labour are no longer a long term issue. At the moment the parlimentery party are a dog running after the wheels of a moving car, trying to nip and snap at the driver and whilst attempting to alter the course all they can do is aggravate it.
They are finished as a major political force for years to come, Corbyn and his London elitiests closely observed by the sinister Momentum group have seen to that. The next election will decimate them in their North Midlands and Northern heartlands, it's back to the early 80's and their years wandering in the post Foot wilderness, and it could all so easily have been avoided but once again Labour has become dogged in extremism and it forgets where it's real roots lies.
Can any genuine Labour supporter tell me they'll win the next election?

And now after the event many Labour politicians still don't seem to grasp it. The evidence was there quite plainly before the election.
Let's see how easy it is to negotiate a trade deal now that genuine brexiteers and with a large majority to back it up and with no deal back on the table..things that should have happened three years ago.

[dart in the crossbar]

Over the years I have been involved in several business transfers. In every case the transfer of ownership has led to staff moving from an existing employer to a new employer.

In each case this has led to staff and trades unions to ask whether or not there will be any detriment as a result of the change of employer.

The usual answer from the new employer is to tell the staff that they have no plans to change conditions - it is also common for the new employer to tell the transferring staff that they will enjoy improved conditions with the change.

The new employers often use phrases like 'want to be the employer of choice' (in the field) and/or talk of retention strategies / incentives / recruitment / perks etc

Generally speaking the outcomes tend to be as was stated by the new employer in these discussions.

And then we have Johnson's changes to the Brexit deal.

Whereas the previous deal stated that the UK would mirror the EU protection of workers' rights, the deal that 46.5% of the country have (apparently just voted for) is to scrap this protection. Instead we have some vague words about making our own decisions.

As the 'new employer' it is interesting that Johnson doesn't seem interested in a pledge that conditions in the UK will be better than those in the EU - and now he doesn't even seem willing to pledge to match them.

Young professionals cannot be blamed for voting with the feet in the coming years.

This post has been edited by dart in the crossbar: 20 December 2019 - 10:35 PM

[frearsghost]

After seeing Corbyn's petulance in defeat, his sour face, his ignoring of Johnson, the refusal to look him in the eye and the vicious slamming of his car door, I must agree with Stella Creasy - not one of my favourite Labour 'wimmin' - who describes him as a vain narcissist having no empathy.

In contrast, I recently re-read Arnold Bennet's 'The Card.'

"What a Card" said one laughing joyously, he's a rare 'un no mistake. This'll make him more popular than ever."

"What's he done?" said the Councillor? "What's his great cause?"

"Why, he's identified with the great cause of cheering us all up" was the reply.

[Wooden Spoon]

And as if to further endear himself to the voting public of Bolsover, he’s on record as still voting against brexit. What a balloon

[Misnomer]

A vain narcissist having no empathy hmmmmmmmm anyone would think you were referring to the Prime Minister; however, he's a Tory, so that can't possibly be the case, ffs lame as usual....

[isleaiw1]

Misnomer, on 21 December 2019 - 02:48 PM, said:

A vain narcissist having no empathy hmmmmmmmm anyone would think you were referring to the Prime Minister; however, he's a Tory, so that can't possibly be the case, ffs lame as usual....

Let’s be honest there is a narcissistic tendency in anyone in politics, as they must want to be centre of attention...

I suspect despite their politics they are personally not a million miles apart...

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

So whilst European leaders queued up to express polite regret and best wishes on Friday Farage and his crew waved their sandcastle flags.

How symbolic.

Then there's this: https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartandhp

And much, much worse this: https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartandhp

Meanwhile the same Michael Gove who's spent the last four or more years insisting we'd have tariff free access to the world's largest market admitted it'd be anything but.

Remainers like me lost the vote. Twice, infact. I accept that. However after years of getting angry about the EU, then getting angry about Remainers, then getting angry about Parliament, then getting angry about the House of Lords, independent judges, John Bercow, the BBC and anyone else their daily paper told them to get angry about, I now wonder who those putting up posters like the above will blame when the union jack utopia they were promised fails to materialise...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 02 February 2020 - 09:47 AM

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 02 February 2020 - 08:56 AM, said:

So whilst European leaders queued up to express polite regret and best wishes on Friday Farage and his crew waved their sandcastle flags.

How symbolic.

Then there's this: https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartandhp

And much, much worse this: https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartandhp

Meanwhile the same Michael Gove who's spent the last four or more years insisting we'd have tariff free access to the world's largest market admitted it'd be anything but.

Remainers like me lost the vote. Twice, infact. I accept that. However after years of getting angry about the EU, then getting angry about Remainers, then getting angry about Parliament, then getting angry about the House of Lords, independent judges, John Bercow, the BBC and anyone else their daily paper told them to get angry about, I now wonder who those putting up posters like the above will blame when the union jack utopia they were promised fails to materialise...

The examples above are quite rightly pointed out as idiotic and stupid, which they clearly are, but the truth is that the VAST number of people who voted Brexit and changed their lifelong allegiances at the 2019 election are just happy its over and now want to get on with normal lives without any animosity or angst toward anyone else regardless of their stance while the various deals etc are negotiated. How will they pan out? Personally I doubt much will change in the long run, countries will still trade with minimum fuss etc, but of course that's my view and we'll have to see how it pans out.
But it in the interest in fairness did anyone see the Terry Christian interview on Good Morning Britain the other day.

This post has been edited by Mr Mercury: 02 February 2020 - 11:05 AM

[mr. smith]

Mr Mercury, on 02 February 2020 - 11:03 AM, said:

The examples above are quite rightly pointed out as idiotic and stupid, which they clearly are, but the truth is that the VAST number of people who voted Brexit and changed their lifelong allegiances at the 2019 election are just happy its over and now want to get on with normal lives without any animosity or angst toward anyone else regardless of their stance while the various deals etc are negotiated. How will they pan out? Personally I doubt much will change in the long run, countries will still trade with minimum fuss etc, but of course that's my view and we'll have to see how it pans out.
But it in the interest in fairness did anyone see the Terry Christian interview on Good Morning Britain the other day.

I did.

[Mr Mercury]

mr. smith, on 02 February 2020 - 11:29 AM, said:

I did.

Thoughts?