[Tora Tora Tora]

Goku, on 21 September 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Yep. It's that simple. It's fascinating that some people can't see it for what it is.

Social conditioning

Would you approve of social conditioning if that involved everyone being indoctrinated with vegenism?
Its fascinating also that some people can't take the reality that death is a part of every day life and no matter what or how it's going to happen.
It's nature.species pray on species. It's the same principle. Animals us etc etc. It don't make it right how some lives are ended. Part of life.
It shows the difference time makes.A hundred years ago youth would be fighting a world war in the trenches eating whatever they could.A hundred years later the youth are getting all hot under the collar about eating habits.
Good on you about your stance. Shows you have a good heart and principles. The reality is that in the big scheme of things vegenism will soon go out of the window when the natural resources of this planet start to wain or there is another world war etc etc.
Maybe then if your still around you might hope there is a bit of truth in that social conditioning malarkey.

[Goku]

Torto coruchéu, on 22 September 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

Would you approve of social conditioning if that involved everyone being indoctrinated with vegenism?
Its fascinating also that some people can't take the reality that death is a part of every day life and no matter what or how it's going to happen.
It's nature.species pray on species. It's the same principle. Animals us etc etc. It don't make it right how some lives are ended. Part of life.
It shows the difference time makes.A hundred years ago youth would be fighting a world war in the trenches eating whatever they could.A hundred years later the youth are getting all hot under the collar about eating habits.
Good on you about your stance. Shows you have a good heart and principles. The reality is that in the big scheme of things vegenism will soon go out of the window when the natural resources of this planet start to wain or there is another world war etc etc.
Maybe then if your still around you might hope there is a bit of truth in that social conditioning malarkey.

No, I want people to come into veganism from an honest & informed position. I've seen misinformation spread by vegans online that is clearly wrong/not backed up by any type of reputable study and although I don't doubt they were doing it from an ethical perspective, even if it did help people 'transition' to living a vegan lifestyle I only want correct information spread. There's so many pros to eating a plant-based diet (personal health, environment, the fact you're not contributing to worldwide suffering quite as much as a meat eater) that it's easy to only provide factual information, especially when literally the only argument against it is 'taste'. To be honest, I'd imagine it'd be quite hard to socially condition a vegan as meat-eating is one of the more obvious socially-conditioned behaviours the majority of the world possess. As a vegan you need to do your own research as it's not a popular way of life because of social conditioning. People are socially conditioned to respond to vegans in a certain way (this is clear to see in my thread which can be located in the 'personal' section as well as my general experience with the internet since becoming a vegan).

Death is a part of every day life but that doesn't mean we have to add more to it. Of course death happens but why do we need to increase the amount of suffering in the world by contributing to it? It's like saying 'ah well, some blokes beat their wives but it's just a natural part of the world, don't get on at them for beating their wives, just accept it'. If you deem something an injustice you do something about it - similar principle here. Additionally, what we do is not 'natural'. Once you start rounding up tonnes of animals in small dark rooms, slaughtering them using mechanical equipment, artificially inseminating them, taking mothers away from their children and stealing their breast milk for ourselves etc. then you can't invoke the nature clause any more. Over 56 billion animals are slaughtered for our food every year across the world and you want to say that's natural? Nope. Species prey on species, the lion eats the gazelle, the spider traps the fly in its web because it's natural. Erecting a building strictly for the mechanised enslavement, torture, sexual assault and slaughter of animals isn't nature.

I don't really get your point about time, you could apply that to literally anything we do nowadays. Seems like a red herring to me.

The 'veganism will go out the window when the earth's resources wain' is an amusing point. Would you like to have a guess what is causing a hell of a lot of the earth's resources to wain? Eating meat. Take a look for yourself: http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts - presumably you haven't thought about how much food we need to grow to feed these animals to fatten them up for our consumption and how the space to grow aforementioned food is created by razing rainforests, destroying indigenous peoples' homes in third world countries etc. not to mention the outrageous amounts of greenhouse gas/carbon emissions are brought about as a result of this. If you're bothered about the earth's resources potentially waning, go vegan. I'm also not going to live my life due to an illogical fear of World War 3.

Finally, apologies to the people of Bobs for discussing veganism on this thread again but please be aware that it's not me bringing this up.

This post has been edited by Goku: 22 September 2016 - 04:24 PM

[Toddhopper.]

Goku, on 22 September 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

No, I want people to come into veganism from an honest & informed position. I've seen misinformation spread by vegans online that is clearly wrong/not backed up by any type of reputable study and although I don't doubt they were doing it from an ethical perspective, even if it did help people 'transition' to living a vegan lifestyle I only want correct information spread. There's so many pros to eating a plant-based diet (personal health, environment, the fact you're not contributing to worldwide suffering quite as much as a meat eater) that it's easy to only provide factual information, especially when literally the only argument against it is 'taste'. To be honest, I'd imagine it'd be quite hard to socially condition a vegan as meat-eating is one of the more obvious socially-conditioned behaviours the majority of the world possess. As a vegan you need to do your own research as it's not a popular way of life because of social conditioning. People are socially conditioned to respond to vegans in a certain way (this is clear to see in my thread which can be located in the 'personal' section as well as my general experience with the internet since becoming a vegan).

Death is a part of every day life but that doesn't mean we have to add more to it. Of course death happens but why do we need to increase the amount of suffering in the world by contributing to it? It's like saying 'ah well, some blokes beat their wives but it's just a natural part of the world, don't get on at them for beating their wives, just accept it'. If you deem something an injustice you do something about it - similar principle here. Additionally, what we do is not 'natural'. Once you start rounding up tonnes of animals in small dark rooms, slaughtering them using mechanical equipment, artificially inseminating them, taking mothers away from their children and stealing their breast milk for ourselves etc. then you can't invoke the nature clause any more. Over 56 billion animals are slaughtered for our food every year across the world and you want to say that's natural? Nope. Species prey on species, the lion eats the gazelle, the spider traps the fly in its web because it's natural. Erecting a building strictly for the mechanised enslavement, torture, sexual assault and slaughter of animals isn't nature.

I don't really get your point about time, you could apply that to literally anything we do nowadays. Seems like a red herring to me.
The 'veganism will go out the window when the earth's resources wain' is an amusing point. Would you like to have a guess what is causing a hell of a lot of the earth's resources to wain? Eating meat. Take a look for yourself: http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts - presumably you haven't thought about how much food we need to grow to feed these animals to fatten them up for our consumption and how the space to grow aforementioned food is created by razing rainforests, destroying indigenous peoples' homes in third world countries etc. not to mention the outrageous amounts of greenhouse gas/carbon emissions are brought about as a result of this. If you're bothered about the earth's resources potentially waning, go vegan. I'm also not going to live my life due to an illogical fear of World War 3.

Finally, apologies to the people of Bobs for discussing veganism on this thread again but please be aware that it's not me bringing this up.

Many good points Goku, but are you sure that what the human race has learnt to do is outwith nature?
I'm not convinced. I agree that the industrialisation of meat production has brought about many morally questionable practices & is damaging to the planet (scale is everything here)but the modern age is also bringing those moral questions into sharp focus, hence the growth in such practices as veganism. Vegetarianism & veganism are no more moral than eating meat at a fundamental level (nutrients need to be consumed & nature has come up with many methods of doing this, none more moral than any other) but if we accept that environmental degradation by a species that is aware of what it is doing is immoral, such practices have to be accepted as valid attempts to live a more moral life. There are probably vastly more effective ways of achieving the goal of reducing environmental destruction & the Armageddon scale suffering we impose on our fellow creatures but they are equally difficult to bring about & every little bit helps.

[Goku]

Toddhopper., on 23 September 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

Many good points Goku, but are you sure that what the human race has learnt to do is outwith nature?
I'm not convinced. I agree that the industrialisation of meat production has brought about many morally questionable practices & is damaging to the planet (scale is everything here)but the modern age is also bringing those moral questions into sharp focus, hence the growth in such practices as veganism. Vegetarianism & veganism are no more moral than eating meat at a fundamental level (nutrients need to be consumed & nature has come up with many methods of doing this, none more moral than any other) but if we accept that environmental degradation by a species that is aware of what it is doing is immoral, such practices have to be accepted as valid attempts to live a more moral life. There are probably vastly more effective ways of achieving the goal of reducing environmental destruction & the Armageddon scale suffering we impose on our fellow creatures but they are equally difficult to bring about & every little bit helps.

I would say that choosing to eat plants rather than killing a sentient creature's decomposing flesh is a lot more moral no matter how you look at it.

If there are vastly more effective ways to stop the way we're sh**ing on this planet I'm all ears.

[The Ghost of James Higgins]

Goku, on 23 September 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

I would say that choosing to eat plants rather than killing a sentient creature's decomposing flesh is a lot more moral no matter how you look at it.

If there are vastly more effective ways to stop the way we're sh**ing on this planet I'm all ears.

By whose morals? Yours? Who says your moral code is "right"? Are you the arbiter of morals? I am by no means "having a go"..I'm interested in the vegan argument but fascinated by the very nature of the argument itself. You put across well researched, thought provoking arguments. I think you can persuade on health, social, economic issues but not because it is "right" or "wrong". Peoples moral codes are brought by nature, nurture and a whole host of factors.

The religion argument is fascinating too. Many say prove there is a god , others say prove there is no god. There is impasse. It is an unwinnable argument because of the human condition itself.

Anyway what do I care...I'm dead.

[Goku]

The Ghost of James Higgins, on 23 September 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

By whose morals? Yours? Who says your moral code is "right"? Are you the arbiter of morals? I am by no means "having a go"..I'm interested in the vegan argument but fascinated by the very nature of the argument itself. You put across well researched, thought provoking arguments. I think you can persuade on health, social, economic issues but not because it is "right" or "wrong". Peoples moral codes are brought by nature, nurture and a whole host of factors.

Explain to me why eating meat is more moral than eating plants when it's a huge factor in the degradation of our planet and causes the death of defenceless animals then? Put a counter-argument forward buddy, because even if I look at it as objectively as I possibly can I can't see how you can put forward a case for the former being more ethical than the latter.

[The Ghost of James Higgins]

Goku, on 23 September 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Explain to me why eating meat is more moral than eating plants when it's a huge factor in the degradation of our planet and causes the death of defenceless animals then? Put a counter-argument forward buddy, because even if I look at it as objectively as I possibly can I can't see how you can put forward a case for the former being more ethical than the latter.

You're missing the point. If someone's moral code says that is ok to eat meat, hell even if some people probably don't even have a view on whether their actions destroy the world, then who is to say they are wrong? Not you. There are many many people who seem to have no consideration for others other than themselves. You are applying yourmoral code (obviously as it is the one adjusted, learned and nurtured over time by experiences). Your code seems well thought through and actually aware you have one and can articulate it. Though even subconsciously the world destroyers will have one.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm not that interested in your debate per se, just on views of morals and right and wrong.

The "forward buddy" makes your argument descend in to personality. Passion is fine but you lose objectivity.

This post has been edited by The Ghost of James Higgins: 23 September 2016 - 10:29 AM

[Goku]

The Ghost of James Higgins, on 23 September 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

You're missing the point. If someone's moral code says that is ok to eat meat, hell even if some people probably don't even have a view on whether their actions destroy the world, then who is to say they are wrong? Not you. There are many many people who seem to have no consideration for others other than themselves.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm not that interested in your debate per se, just on views of morals and right and wrong.

The "forward buddy" makes your argument descend in to personality. Passion is fine but you lose objectivity.

Morals should be backed up with reason, surely? How far are we taking this? Can anyone hold something as moral no matter what the consequences? This reminds me of the 'opinions are everything' and 'I'm entitled to my opinion' tripe I read frequently. Yeah, you're allowed your opinion, but back it up with something or prepare for it to be called out for the heap of sh** it is.

I wasn't being funny by calling you buddy. I just try and keep these discussions friendly (which is usually ruined when certain people get involved).

Basically, your morals should be backed by logic because without logic what's the point in holding those morals?

This post has been edited by Goku: 23 September 2016 - 10:30 AM

[The Ghost of James Higgins]

Goku, on 23 September 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

Morals should be backed up with reason, surely? How far are we taking this? Can anyone hold something as moral no matter what the consequences? This reminds me of the 'opinions are everything' and 'I'm entitled to my opinion' tripe I read frequently. Yeah, you're allowed your opinion, but back it up with something or prepare for it to be called out for the heap of sh** it is.

I wasn't being funny by calling you buddy. I just try and keep these discussions friendly (which is usually ruined when certain people get involved).

Basically, your morals should be backed by logic because without logic what's the point in holding those morals?

Agreed but I'm not sure they always are. I think people do...whether I agree or not is moot point. People's moral code applies to honour killings, revenge killings...all pretty evil to my set of morals. They however will believe they are correct.

Opinions are totally different. I also totally agree with you re logic on opinions. Have one but if it's not backed up by any logic, fact and is completely subjective then be prepared to have your opinion destroyed.

Friendly is good. I'm probably over sensitive. It's the dead thing.

I think morals are nurtured, possibly innate too. Not sure logic plays a part in someone's moral code all the time.

This post has been edited by The Ghost of James Higgins: 23 September 2016 - 10:39 AM

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

Goku, on 22 September 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

No, I want people to come into veganism from an honest & informed position. I've seen misinformation spread by vegans online that is clearly wrong/not backed up by any type of reputable study and although I don't doubt they were doing it from an ethical perspective, even if it did help people 'transition' to living a vegan lifestyle I only want correct information spread. There's so many pros to eating a plant-based diet (personal health, environment, the fact you're not contributing to worldwide suffering quite as much as a meat eater) that it's easy to only provide factual information, especially when literally the only argument against it is 'taste'. To be honest, I'd imagine it'd be quite hard to socially condition a vegan as meat-eating is one of the more obvious socially-conditioned behaviours the majority of the world possess. As a vegan you need to do your own research as it's not a popular way of life because of social conditioning. People are socially conditioned to respond to vegans in a certain way (this is clear to see in my thread which can be located in the 'personal' section as well as my general experience with the internet since becoming a vegan).

Death is a part of every day life but that doesn't mean we have to add more to it. Of course death happens but why do we need to increase the amount of suffering in the world by contributing to it? It's like saying 'ah well, some blokes beat their wives but it's just a natural part of the world, don't get on at them for beating their wives, just accept it'. If you deem something an injustice you do something about it - similar principle here. Additionally, what we do is not 'natural'. Once you start rounding up tonnes of animals in small dark rooms, slaughtering them using mechanical equipment, artificially inseminating them, taking mothers away from their children and stealing their breast milk for ourselves etc. then you can't invoke the nature clause any more. Over 56 billion animals are slaughtered for our food every year across the world and you want to say that's natural? Nope. Species prey on species, the lion eats the gazelle, the spider traps the fly in its web because it's natural. Erecting a building strictly for the mechanised enslavement, torture, sexual assault and slaughter of animals isn't nature.

I don't really get your point about time, you could apply that to literally anything we do nowadays. Seems like a red herring to me.

The 'veganism will go out the window when the earth's resources wain' is an amusing point. Would you like to have a guess what is causing a hell of a lot of the earth's resources to wain? Eating meat. Take a look for yourself: http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts - presumably you haven't thought about how much food we need to grow to feed these animals to fatten them up for our consumption and how the space to grow aforementioned food is created by razing rainforests, destroying indigenous peoples' homes in third world countries etc. not to mention the outrageous amounts of greenhouse gas/carbon emissions are brought about as a result of this. If you're bothered about the earth's resources potentially waning, go vegan. I'm also not going to live my life due to an illogical fear of World War 3.

Finally, apologies to the people of Bobs for discussing veganism on this thread again but please be aware that it's not me bringing this up.

I think you'll probably find that people respond to vegans in the manner they do because on the whole they're a sanctimonious bunch of know-alls who seek to impose their moral code on everyone else. Not only that, their so-called moral high ground is built on sand.

You talk about nature as though it is seperate to humanity. As though we're not just another species on the planet seeking to survive and prosper.

Do you not think that species who don't eat meat have a negative effect on other species? Do the animals who strip vegetation not do so at the expense of other species and their environment? Did you know that termites release more Co2 than all human activity? Or that the Co2 is essentially plant food?

98% of all species that have existed are now extinct. That's not to do with factory farming, or industrial impacts on environment. It's just the way it is. Nature isn't some fluffy bunny. It is remorseless and cares not one bit for 'morals'.

The human race only began to truly 'differentiate' itself from other species and gain the 'superiority'/dominance that allowed for civilisation by farming both animals and crops.

Do we eat too much meat? Yes. Is high intensity farming good for animals or environment? No. Is the only positive way to improve environment, human health and animal welfare veganism? No.

To paraphrase George Carlin..

'The planet isn't going anywhere folks... we are. Pack your shi-t and get used to it.'

ps. Note i said 'on the whole'. I know plenty of vegatarians who don't try to impose their values on others, and the odd vegan (one i think) who can enjoy a bit of back and forth banter on the topic without preaching.

pss. Fear of ww3 is way more logical than your fear of planetary calamity as a result of meat-eating.

This post has been edited by KevinArnottsGoldenBoot: 23 September 2016 - 12:23 PM

[Toddhopper.]

Goku, on 23 September 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

I would say that choosing to eat plants rather than killing a sentient creature's decomposing flesh is a lot more moral no matter how you look at it.

If there are vastly more effective ways to stop the way we're sh**ing on this planet I'm all ears.

No, killing to eat is not immoral in all circumstances. For example, the Inuit live in conditions where the growing of plants for food is not possible. Instead they rely on fish, whales, seals for their sustinence. They are not immoral people because of this.
As for more effective ways of stopping environmental degradation, well I would say changing policy on large scales would be more effective than a few people becoming vegan. How we extract energy from our environment can and should be altered greatly but the cessation of eating meat completely, whilst it may help, doesn't address how we produce our plant food and the enormous environmental damage done by arable farming, as well as a vast array of other damaging practices.

This post has been edited by Toddhopper.: 23 September 2016 - 01:36 PM

[Goku]

Toddhopper., on 23 September 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

No, killing to eat is not immoral in all circumstances. For example, the Inuit live in conditions where the growing of plants for food is not possible. Instead they rely on fish, whales, seals for their sustinence. They are not immoral people because of this.
As for more effective ways of stopping environmental degradation, well I would say changing policy on large scales would be more effective than a few people becoming vegan. How we extract energy from our environment can and should be altered greatly but the cessation of eating meat completely, whilst it may help, doesn't address how we produce our plant food and the enormous environmental damage done by arable farming, as well as a vast array of other damaging practices.

Yeah that's a fair point I wasn't considering indigenous tribes/inuits etc I'm on about the modern man in first world countries who have no requirement to eat meat due to the wide range of produce around him.

Most of the plant food produced on this earth is made for the sole purpose of fattening up animals for meat eaters. You're severely underestimating the impact a lot of people turning vegan would have, in my opinion.

[Goku]

KevinArnottsGoldenBoot, on 23 September 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

I think you'll probably find that people respond to vegans in the manner they do because on the whole they're a sanctimonious bunch of know-alls who seek to impose their moral code on everyone else. Not only that, their so-called moral high ground is built on sand.

You talk about nature as though it is seperate to humanity. As though we're not just another species on the planet seeking to survive and prosper.

Do you not think that species who don't eat meat have a negative effect on other species? Do the animals who strip vegetation not do so at the expense of other species and their environment? Did you know that termites release more Co2 than all human activity? Or that the Co2 is essentially plant food?

98% of all species that have existed are now extinct. That's not to do with factory farming, or industrial impacts on environment. It's just the way it is. Nature isn't some fluffy bunny. It is remorseless and cares not one bit for 'morals'.

The human race only began to truly 'differentiate' itself from other species and gain the 'superiority'/dominance that allowed for civilisation by farming both animals and crops.

Do we eat too much meat? Yes. Is high intensity farming good for animals or environment? No. Is the only positive way to improve environment, human health and animal welfare veganism? No.

To paraphrase George Carlin..

'The planet isn't going anywhere folks... we are. Pack your shi-t and get used to it.'

ps. Note i said 'on the whole'. I know plenty of vegatarians who don't try to impose their values on others, and the odd vegan (one i think) who can enjoy a bit of back and forth banter on the topic without preaching.

pss. Fear of ww3 is way more logical than your fear of planetary calamity as a result of meat-eating.

I would've genuinely preferred if you'd just written 'I'm gonna keep eating meat and that's that' because I get that. What I can't understand is why you try and find reasons to back up your staunch immovable opinion. It's a waste of both of our time. Sigh. Yet here I am. Replying.

'Our moral high ground is built on sand' - in your opinion, of course - an opinion held primarily because to give vegans even an ounce of credit would be like a loss to you and would be an admission that you're far from perfect, and we can't be having that.

Seeking to survive and prosper? Well we're not doing very well are we? Eating tonnes of meat and dairy contributing heavily to heart disease, cancer, atherosclerosis whilst decimating rainforests to make space for more animal agriculture + producing an outrageous amount of greenhouse gasses/carbon emissions. Just because you live in the privileged United Kingdom doesn't mean we're not sh**ting on third world countries around the world.

These other species who do harm to the environment DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE ETHICAL DECISIONS. How is this a tough concept to understand? These are just parts of the world, we have the choice and we abuse it. Yes some animals have negative impacts on the environments but we're so far removed from them that you shouldn't even be making the comparison. Just think about it for one minute.

Youre coming from the viewpoint of 'I don't give a f**k, some bad things happen thus we're not gonna change owt'. I disagree with that method of thinking.

I don't care how we gained 'dominance'. Thats like saying 'we had to eat meat to grow bigger brains' (not true, but still, completely irrelevant). The white man became dominant when he enslaved minorities and pillaged their countries for their resources. Probably a good idea we don't still do that isn't it? (Well we do but not quite to that extent) - just because we did something in the past doesn't make it ethical or intelligent. Completely moot point.

I know veganism isn't the ONLY positive way to make things better but it is and will continue to help things and as the numbers swell as they are doing at an alarming rate then more change will be made. You even acknowledge that eating meat and high intensity farming are negatives yet you continue to slate veganism - do you know what this is? Take a look - http://www.simplypsy...dissonance.html

Vegetarians aren't often vegetarian for the animals or the environment, it's primarily just because they don't enjoy meat or are put off by the idea of consuming rotting flesh sprayed with carbon monoxide to make it look 'fresh'. If you drink cows milk it feeds directly into the veal industry and if you eat eggs from anywhere but a local farm, male chicks are shredded as soon as they're born and their gender identified because they're not cost effective. We genuniely don't give a f**k if you don't like us talking about veganism, I can't explain to you how little we care about your feelings. You having to deal with a few words that make you uncomfortable is nothing compared to the pain and suffering animals go through. I try and keep it polite but people like you press me so I have to keep talking about it.

Next.

Edit; in fact, i'm actually getting bored of talking about this - yes, a vegan getting bored of talking about being a vegan - so here are a few amusing comic strips showing how stupid some of the common arguments against veganism are (just click them, for some reason this forum doesn't allow this image extension);

1. http://imgur.com/0SGHf74 - stop bothering me
2. http://imgur.com/0CpCBxp - religion
3. http://imgur.com/g3WWFui - already dead
4. http://imgur.com/KGhUU2H - vegans are freaks
5. http://imgur.com/CLATT5J - lions eat meat
6. http://imgur.com/J4BkPJ5 - canines
7. http://imgur.com/YhqnDBu - hypocrisy

This post has been edited by Goku: 23 September 2016 - 04:12 PM

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

Goku, on 23 September 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

I would've genuinely preferred if you'd just written 'I'm gonna keep eating meat and that's that' because I get that. What I can't understand is why you try and find reasons to back up your staunch immovable opinion. It's a waste of both of our time. Sigh. Yet here I am. Replying.

'Our moral high ground is built on sand' - in your opinion, of course - an opinion held primarily because to give vegans even an ounce of credit would be like a loss to you and would be an admission that you're far from perfect, and we can't be having that.

Seeking to survive and prosper? Well we're not doing very well are we? Eating tonnes of meat and dairy contributing heavily to heart disease, cancer, atherosclerosis whilst decimating rainforests to make space for more animal agriculture + producing an outrageous amount of greenhouse gasses/carbon emissions. Just because you live in the privileged United Kingdom doesn't mean we're not sh**ting on third world countries around the world.

These other species who do harm to the environment DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE ETHICAL DECISIONS. How is this a tough concept to understand? These are just parts of the world, we have the choice and we abuse it. Yes some animals have negative impacts on the environments but we're so far removed from them that you shouldn't even be making the comparison. Just think about it for one minute.

Youre coming from the viewpoint of 'I don't give a f**k, some bad things happen thus we're not gonna change owt'. I disagree with that method of thinking.

I don't care how we gained 'dominance'. Thats like saying 'we had to eat meat to grow bigger brains' (not true, but still, completely irrelevant). The white man became dominant when he enslaved minorities and pillaged their countries for their resources. Probably a good idea we don't still do that isn't it? (Well we do but not quite to that extent) - just because we did something in the past doesn't make it ethical or intelligent. Completely moot point.

I know veganism isn't the ONLY positive way to make things better but it is and will continue to help things and as the numbers swell as they are doing at an alarming rate then more change will be made. You even acknowledge that eating meat and high intensity farming are negatives yet you continue to slate veganism - do you know what this is? Take a look - http://www.simplypsy...dissonance.html

Vegetarians aren't often vegetarian for the animals or the environment, it's primarily just because they don't enjoy meat or are put off by the idea of consuming rotting flesh sprayed with carbon monoxide to make it look 'fresh'. If you drink cows milk it feeds directly into the veal industry and if you eat eggs from anywhere but a local farm, male chicks are shredded as soon as they're born and their gender identified because they're not cost effective. We genuniely don't give a f**k if you don't like us talking about veganism, I can't explain to you how little we care about your feelings. You having to deal with a few words that make you uncomfortable is nothing compared to the pain and suffering animals go through. I try and keep it polite but people like you press me so I have to keep talking about it.

Next.

You care so little what everyone thinks of you that you continually spring up with these bitter novellas of posts, childlike in their naivety and ignorance (usually avoiding anything you don't understand); and coated with a thick lair of urine poor adolescent venom.

I told you more than once that I don't care what you eat. So your indifference is reciprocated. Only problem I have with whingeing saviours of the planet such as yourself is that you're boring. And have no sense of humour. And that you write things like 'next' at the ends of your witterings because you think that scores you a 'win'(it actually makes people imagine a spotty yoof stamping his feet on the ground and scweaming 'LISTEN TO ME)!

I'll think of your sacrifice to Gaia when I'm having my bacon & egg sarnie in the morning.

**Last one with a leather belt goes to hell.

[clarevoyant.]

I don't know how you lads (an assumption)find time to keep posting at such length. Can we blame it on the diet?

[Goku]

KevinArnottsGoldenBoot, on 23 September 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'll think of your sacrifice to Gaia when I'm having my bacon & egg sarnie in the morning.

And there we have it folks - idiot shows his true idiocy. It's a class 1 carcinogen as categorised by the World Health Organisation. The most common, socially conditioned response ever, bragging about doing something which brings you harm. How dumb are you? - http://imgur.com/nyt3ksF

Well done on ducking everything and admitting you have nothing salient to provide. I'm the youth stamping my feet on the ground whereas you're replying bragging about eating bacon. You're so stupid you can't even see it Bring back Firedodger, he's way better than you.

This post has been edited by Goku: 23 September 2016 - 04:22 PM

[Goku]

clarevoyant., on 23 September 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

I don't know how you lads (an assumption)find time to keep posting at such length. Can we blame it on the diet?

Don't worry about it too much.

[clarevoyant.]

Goku, on 23 September 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Don't worry about it too much.

Just worried that some of you may work in the public sector and I (and others)are paying for you to post on here

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

Goku, on 23 September 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

And there we have it folks - idiot shows his true idiocy. It's a class 1 carcinogen as categorised by the World Health Organisation. The most common, socially conditioned response ever, bragging about doing something which brings you harm. How dumb are you? - http://imgur.com/nyt3ksF

Well done on ducking everything and admitting you have nothing salient to provide. I'm the youth stamping my feet on the ground whereas you're replying bragging about eating bacon. You're so stupid you can't even see it Bring back Firedodger, he's way better than you.

I wasn't bragging about eating bacon. I was mocking your notion of saving the planet.

As stated before, by me, termites release more Co2 than all human activity per year (possibly as much as ten times more). Farming and eating of meat contributes only a fraction toward all Co2 emissions by humans.

Therefore, if the whole human race became vegan tomorrow it would have absolutely no impact on the environment or C02 emissions worth speaking of.

Feel free to wear your undercrackers outside your trousers and imagine you're saving the planet, just don't get the hump when people don't give a toss and call it out for what it is. Your argument as regards animal wellbeing is valid, the 'saving the planet/human race' spiel is bunkum.

[Spire-Power]

Does trumping affect the environment because I sometimes do that after a steak pie. But then again it could be the ale...