[BlueRover52]

marlons curtains, on Jan 13 2008, 05:29 PM, said:

and despite that, scored 17 in 61.

And Hall scored 15 in a season and where does he rate?

[dim view]

sophocles, on Jan 13 2008, 04:11 PM, said:

Everybody has been able to see that we are often overrun in midfield, and that we need a ball - holding player there in the Allott mould; not trying to be clever, but in the pro and anti - Allott arguments last season I remember saying we would miss him badly. To be fair to Rico I believe he saw Leven and/or Winter as the answer, but so far they are not, and we haven't got that much time for them to get it right. Leven is good, but doesn't dominate a game, Winter is fine when he has plenty of time, but is easily hustled out of it, and neither of them has the pace or aggression to overpower opposing midfielders.
.
I think we are all going to suffer some tense situations between now and the end of the season, with a lot of fingernail biting going on. Whether it will end in promotion or not is something I wouldn't dare try to forecast right now.

Please Soph, I'm willing to take part in a debate about whether Allott would make a difference now, at a lower level, and with better players around him, but to imply that Allott had qualities such as 'dominate', 'pace', 'aggression', 'overpower' is a joke. The guy was part of the weakest midfield in the division and never did any of those things. This doesn't of course detract from your argument that we may be currently short of all those qualities.
Course we have time to get it right. Stop biting your fingernails and chill out.

[Town_Fan]

dim view, on Jan 13 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

Please Soph, I'm willing to take part in a debate about whether Allott would make a difference now, at a lower level, and with better players around him, but to imply that Allott had qualities such as 'dominate', 'pace', 'aggression', 'overpower' is a joke. The guy was part of the weakest midfield in the division and never did any of those things. This doesn't of course detract from your argument that we may be currently short of all those qualities.
Course we have time to get it right. Stop biting your fingernails and chill out.

I thought Soph made some good points and was one of the better posts over this weekend (even though I disgaree about Ward) however I have to agree with you that Allott probably wouldnt have made that much of a difference.

This post has been edited by Town_Fan: 13 January 2008 - 06:59 PM

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

Town_Fan, on Jan 13 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

I thought Soph made some good points and was one of the better posts over this weekend (even though I disgaree about Ward) however I have to agree with you that Allott probably wouldnt have made that much of a difference.

Whoever we bring in to cover the midfield berth, one of the qualities they must have is to have more mobility than Leven/Winter it's blindingly obvious at times we are too slow in the middle when the opposition have the ball

[marlons curtains]

BlueRover52, on Jan 13 2008, 06:34 PM, said:

And Hall scored 15 in a season and where does he rate?

Not sure the point youre trying to make... to me Robbo was the heartbeat of the team, which we are sadly lacking now.. too often for me Hally was a lazy luxury, who every so often showed glimpses of brilliance.

[dim view]

Ernie Ernie Ernie, on Jan 13 2008, 07:07 PM, said:

Whoever we bring in to cover the midfield berth, one of the qualities they must have is to have more mobility than Leven/Winter it's blindingly obvious at times we are too slow in the middle when the opposition have the ball

I've a feeling that Rico got Winter's selection wrong yesterday. He had to come off with what looked like a groin injury against Grimsby. I wouldn't be surprised if he passed a late fitness test, but then couldn't compete at match pace. Isn't Niven supposed to be the main mobile closing down machine.?

[BlueRover52]

marlons curtains, on Jan 13 2008, 07:18 PM, said:

Not sure the point youre trying to make... to me Robbo was the heartbeat of the team, which we are sadly lacking now.. too often for me Hally was a lazy luxury, who every so often showed glimpses of brilliance.

Just making the point that when it comes to judging who may be the better midfielder its not just goals that count.
We have had many good midfield players from the majestic Geoff Salmon, to the artistry of Birch,power of Wilson, elegance of Bonneyman the list goes on. Leven,if we can keep him, will make his mark. But needs to play in his best position.

[dim view]

marlons curtains, on Jan 13 2008, 07:18 PM, said:

Not sure the point youre trying to make... to me Robbo was the heartbeat of the team, which we are sadly lacking now.. too often for me Hally was a lazy luxury, who every so often showed glimpses of brilliance.

I agree. Robbo was one of the few players we have ever had who had come down to us from a higher level, but then rediscovered the ability to perform at the higher level again. Same as King Rod Fern before him, and dare I say it, Jack.

[Blueprint]

fishini, on Jan 12 2008, 09:31 PM, said:

Your point is exactly what? Thought we were talking about town players not Blackburn or Aberdeen players. Make it simple for you we are only talking about the playing careers at town ok?

I thought we were talking about good midfielders, you said Ebdon was a better player than Rico, but yet rico played at a higher level so surely Rico was the better of the two during his career? Why did you suddenly not understand my point, was it because i brought up the person who is currently incharge of the club, have we forgotten about his playing career now he is a manager?

Agree about Robinson, he, along with Tony Lormer transformed us that season, from the point we signed those two we went on a 21 (was it?) match unbeaten run, now that was a great season - one which we actually improved after christmas!

[fishini]

Blueprint, on Jan 13 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

I thought we were talking about good midfielders, you said Ebdon was a better player than Rico, but yet rico played at a higher level so surely Rico was the better of the two during his career? Why did you suddenly not understand my point, was it because i brought up the person who is currently incharge of the club, have we forgotten about his playing career now he is a manager?

Agree about Robinson, he, along with Tony Lormer transformed us that season, from the point we signed those two we went on a 21 (was it?) match unbeaten run, now that was a great season - one which we actually improved after christmas!

Look I will try to make it as simple as I can for you, who was the better of the two while playing for Chesterfield? Easy enough for you to answer now?

[firedodger]

Blueprint, on Jan 13 2008, 08:58 PM, said:

I thought we were talking about good midfielders, you said Ebdon was a better player than Rico, but yet rico played at a higher level so surely Rico was the better of the two during his career? Why did you suddenly not understand my point, was it because i brought up the person who is currently incharge of the club, have we forgotten about his playing career now he is a manager?

Agree about Robinson, he, along with Tony Lormer transformed us that season, from the point we signed those two we went on a 21 (was it?) match unbeaten run, now that was a great season - one which we actually improved after christmas!

i dont think many people care where richardson may have played or captained,on what we saw at saltergate he wasnt half the player marcus ebdon was,ebdon was tremendous for us,it was a delight to see him do those drag backs that sent many an opponent falling flat on their backsides.
and its lormOr.

[Johnny Spireite]

Interesting debate about the relative qualities of our midfield and it got me wondering about the last time we got promoted out of this division.

In every area, the team of 2000 was superior to the present one yet we seem to be bemoaning the fact that we're still pushing for an automatic promotion spot.

We can argue long and hard about the merits of Ebdon and Rico but as a partnership they were excellent, had a good understanding as a pair, knew their role in the team and had masses of experience between them.

We had two high quality centre halves and loads of experience at full back either side of them and we had a goal-scoring partnership up front.

Only Jack Lester would really significantly have enhanced that side.

There's no doubting that we could do with two older heads just now - one at centre half and one in central midfield but those players don't grow on trees and I suspect we won't be splashing cash that we haven't got....unlike in 2000.

PS Incidentally Blue Rover named the best all-time midfield IMO - Birch, Wilson, Bonneyman, Salmons (though I've always had a soft spot for Tommy Fenoughty so I might have to find a place for him too!)

[Blueprint]

firedodger, on Jan 15 2008, 09:50 AM, said:

i dont think many people care where richardson may have played or captained,on what we saw at saltergate he wasnt half the player marcus ebdon was,ebdon was tremendous for us,it was a delight to see him do those drag backs that sent many an opponent falling flat on their backsides.
and its lormOr.

Didn't realise i'd spelt it with an 'e'. Soz.

[psyman]

I wish we currently had a player like Ebdon

Who was the midfield player we had on loan from Wednesday a few years back (can't remember his name - senility is setting in)? From what I can remember (and seeing as I can't even recall his name, the memory might be playing tricks here ), he was the sort of player we could do with on loan (obviously not him as he'd be too old now). He always seemed to have time on the ball, could hold the ball and had a decent range of passing.

[semi130497]

psyman, on Jan 15 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

I wish we currently had a player like Ebdon

Who was the midfield player we had on loan from Wednesday a few years back (can't remember his name - senility is setting in)? From what I can remember (and seeing as I can't even recall his name, the memory might be playing tricks here ), he was the sort of player we could do with on loan (obviously not him as he'd be too old now). He always seemed to have time on the ball, could hold the ball and had a decent range of passing.

We had Graham Hyde on loan a few years back, he was attatched to birmingham at the time but is best known as a wednesday player. Is it him you're thinking of?

[Aspire_webby]

QUESTION:What does dropping points mean?

ANSWER:Another season in this grotty division.


What worries me is failure to get promoted this season could mean a protraced stay in this division. Grotty it may be on the whole but there are always a few leading clubs who are way above the general standard. This season MK Dons, Darlington, Hereford and Rotherham have all shown they are genuine contenders for the automatic promotion spot and Peterborough seem more likely to stake a claim than CFC or other chasing clubs.

The fact of the mater is we are 6 points adrift of that group - at least we will be when Darlington's game in hand are fulfilled - and have tough matches coming up. While we have started the season with great away wins against promotion contenders we now have to face those clubs at home. Our home record is only 4 draws better than Mansfield's and I am not looking forward to the games against Hereford and MK with any great confidence.

It is easier to attract players of Lester's quality to the club with the promise of a glorious "bounce-back" season than it will be to sell the benefit of joining a mid-table Division 2 side. Things will only get harder if we fail to get promotion this season. Hand on heart - I don't see automatic promotion as a realstic target unless we see dramatic improvement in home form and general consistency. I don't know who will lead that revolution on the pitch or off it. Worse, there is a risk of missing the playoffs if our home form remains flaky and our away form collapses.

[spireiterob]

BlueRover52, on Jan 13 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

Just making the point that when it comes to judging who may be the better midfielder its not just goals that count.
We have had many good midfield players from the majestic Geoff Salmon, to the artistry of Birch,power of Wilson, elegance of Bonneyman the list goes on. Leven,if we can keep him, will make his mark. But needs to play in his best position.

Which means Niven must be dropped to the bench. Yes he works hard and put a great ball through to Jack on Saturday but for me he must miss out. We are so narrow at the moment.

Lowry ...... Leven.....Winter.........Barnes

Give Barnes a go, yes he didn't do very well against Grimsby but he must have something in him to be so highly rated at United. With a few games he might come good. And he is a WINGER actually on the wing! I think we could cope without Nivens workrate as Leven works equally hard and both his and Winters superior ballplaying ability would surely make us a better team. Niv could come on if we are winning, help pack the midfield and close the game out.

[sophocles]

dim view, on Jan 13 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

Please Soph, I'm willing to take part in a debate about whether Allott would make a difference now, at a lower level, and with better players around him, but to imply that Allott had qualities such as 'dominate', 'pace', 'aggression', 'overpower' is a joke. The guy was part of the weakest midfield in the division and never did any of those things. This doesn't of course detract from your argument that we may be currently short of all those qualities.
Course we have time to get it right. Stop biting your fingernails and chill out.

I wasn't suggesting an Allott type player would provide all of those qualities, just the ability to hold the ball, play simple passes to OUR players and retain possession.
That might not sound a lot, but it would give us much more midfield control than we can muster at the moment.

[sophocles]

spireiterob, on Jan 15 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

Which means Niven must be dropped to the bench. Yes he works hard and put a great ball through to Jack on Saturday but for me he must miss out. We are so narrow at the moment.

Lowry ...... Leven.....Winter.........Barnes

Give Barnes a go, yes he didn't do very well against Grimsby but he must have something in him to be so highly rated at United. With a few games he might come good. And he is a WINGER actually on the wing! I think we could cope without Nivens workrate as Leven works equally hard and both his and Winters superior ballplaying ability would surely make us a better team. Niv could come on if we are winning, help pack the midfield and close the game out.

In my opinion that midfield would be virtually non-existent as it would be so soft that any other team would walk through it.
Leven is a good player, but he hasn't got Nivo's engine. Winter can play and find passes, but only if he is given loads of time and space by the opposition.
Without Niven, our midfield would be continuously brushed aside - it sometimes is already, but Derek is the only one we have in there who can make a fight of it, so to leave him out would be suicidal.