[Wooden Spoon]

Johnnyspireite7, on 22 February 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

More like!
Bob Crow might be dead but they still think like him!

lol

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Whichever way the vote goes Cameron's history.

The right wing press (i.e. most of 'em) have already torn apart the PR stunt that was his 'renegotiation', grassroot Tories are overwhelmingly anti-Europe and a quarter of his cabinet instantly declared themselves 'outers'.

Meanwhile barmy Boris, media whore that he is, circles like a cynical and calculating shark.

If the referendum gives a 'stay' verdict it'll be open warfare in the Tory party, with many of the pinstripe suit and blue rinse brigade turning on Mr Smugface, whilst if it's a 'leave' he'll have been rejected by the British people. With no option but to follow Miliband and Clegg who were similarly snubbed.

Barmy Boris v Jezza at PMQ's?

Can't wait - it'll be like 'Have I Got News For You' every week.

[dim view]

a kick in the balls, on 20 February 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

A substantial case for not being in the EU, and thats without even mentioning the immigration/benefits issue.

I'd like the answer to this question...

It's a fact that our European brothers and sisters are only just facing the searching questions we have been asking for years. They are maybe 18 to 24 months behind us at least.

So, where do we stand if we leave, but then in a couple of years EU Policy is changed by democratic demand and ends up reflecting what we originally asked for? By 'we' I don't mean Cameron, I mean ordinary British folk. Is there a mechanism for us to get back in? At the risk of being labelled a namby pamby on the fence Liberal, I'm tempted to vote 'stay in' but only on the understanding that real, measureable, effective, reform takes place. I'm aware that this is dangerously close to Cameron's position.

This post has been edited by dim view: 22 February 2016 - 03:48 PM

[calvin plummers socks]

Boris joins Galloway and Farage.

That's one hell of a group of never like to be a part of that's for sure!

[kh83]

dim view, on 22 February 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

I'd like the answer to this question...

It's a fact that our European brothers and sisters are only just facing the searching questions we have been asking for years. They are maybe 18 to 24 months behind us at least.

So, where do we stand if we leave, but then in a couple of years EU Policy is changed by democratic demand and ends up reflecting what we originally asked for? By 'we' I don't mean Cameron, I mean ordinary British folk. Is there a mechanism for us to get back in? At the risk of being labelled a namby pamby on the fence Liberal, I'm tempted to vote 'stay in' but only on the understanding that real, measureable, effective, reform takes place. I'm aware that this is dangerously close to Cameron's position.

It's good that other nations are starting to ask questions too.

Sorry but I nearly laughed out loud at the "democratic demand" phrase in your second sentence. There's nothing democratic about the European Union it's a dictatorship, this is why Cameron has asked for so little cause he knows they won't budge. In attempt to keep us in as they really want to keep us in, they have tried to dress this "deal" up as something of a victory when in actual fact it is nothing. Everything Dave talks about having in this minor reform he can have in abundance by not being a member.

I'd be amazed if we left and then the EU suddenly started being more democratic, listening to the people and actually reformed with us wanting to join back in again.. This will never happen and if it did they would jump at the chance of having us back in.

For me though, we are Great Britain, we don't need be governed by people who have no idea about Britain, haven't been elected to make decision that effect the British people and are only looking out for themselves. 75% of our laws are made and governed by the EU. What's the point in having a general election to appoint a government, where's the democracy? We are a great nation and we are more than capable of securing our own trade deals, implementing our own laws and governing our own country.

[dim view]

kh83, on 22 February 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

It's good that other nations are starting to ask questions too.

Sorry but I nearly laughed out loud at the "democratic demand" phrase in your second sentence. .....

.....the demand for change in this country only started when our MP's, fearing their lost deposit, started listening to voters. The same thing will happen over the next 2 or 3 years in other countries.

[Wooden Spoon]

dim view said:

1456155231[/url]' post='1189267']
I'd like the answer to this question...

It's a fact that our European brothers and sisters are only just facing the searching questions we have been asking for years. They are maybe 18 to 24 months behind us at least.

So, where do we stand if we leave, but then in a couple of years EU Policy is changed by democratic demand and ends up reflecting what we originally asked for? By 'we' I don't mean Cameron, I mean ordinary British folk. Is there a mechanism for us to get back in? At the risk of being labelled a namby pamby on the fence Liberal, I'm tempted to vote 'stay in' but only on the understanding that real, measureable, effective, reform takes place. I'm aware that this is dangerously close to Cameron's position.

The EU, with the Eurozone debt problems is even more committed to closer integration, it has to be if you have a central bank, central currency etc and to be ruled by decree by the European Commission.

The chances of them changing to a line where they want to repatriate powers back to individual member states and have looser integration is minimal. Indeed probably far less than minimal.

[dim view]

a kick in the balls, on 22 February 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:

The chances of them changing to a line where they want to repatriate powers back to individual member states and have looser integration is minimal. Indeed probably far less than minimal.

I don't think you are noting the news items about various 'revolts'. Germany has lent all these countries the money so has most to lose, and it's even happening there.

I'll tell you summat else that is just a gut feel....There is an area of huge prosperity in southern Europe covering several countries. The north of Italy, SW France, Austria, Southern Germany, (and the whole of Switzerland) which is 'old money' wealthy. Without wishing to be silly about scaremongering, if the traditions and prosperity of that area are threatened by anything or anybody because they have to integrate more, I think there will be political resistance.

This post has been edited by dim view: 23 February 2016 - 09:04 AM

[Wooden Spoon]

dim view said:

1456217899[/url]' post='1189380']
I don't think you are noting the news items about various 'revolts'. Germany has lent all these countries the money so has most to lose, and it's even happening there.

I'll tell you summat else that is just a gut feel....There is an area of huge prosperity in southern Europe covering several countries. The north of Italy, SW France, Austria, Southern Germany, (and the whole of Switzerland) which is 'old money' wealthy. Without wishing to be silly about scaremongering, if the traditions and prosperity of that area are threatened by anything or anybody because they have to integrate more, I think there will be political resistance.

These "revolts" have only really happened since the beginning of the refugee crisis, prior to that any anti EU feeling was a tiny % as can be seen with some of the "parties" UKIP was meeting with....as I said earlier, if nations are committed to a single currency, there has to be closer integration to make it work, and they are too far down the road politically for it not to work, it's one of the core elements of the project...... Interest rates and inflation, taxes and VAT will all have to be set eventually by the ECB.

Closer integration will happen in the Eurozone, whether the people there like it or not.

[Search & Destroy]

Good old Boris, we just need The Sun on board now.

[Wooden Spoon]

Economist on the news yesterday said "The EU is our biggest trading partner with up to 40% of our trade done with them???why cut your self off from them"



Well, first of all, who has suggested leaving the EU means we don't trade with them!? No one. We buy far more from the EU than we sell to them. Audi BMW Mercedes, Peugeot, Citroen, all will be hammering their governments to come up with a favourable trade deal with the uk. We buy far too much stuff from them for the EU not to negotiate a favourable trade deal.

And of course the Lisbon treaty states any nation that leaves must have a trade deal in place before they go.

Tim Congdon, economist and runner-up in Ukip’s 2010 leadership election, publishes an annual report for the party on what he sees as the costs of being in the EU. His latest edition again highlighted the “damage that excessive and misguided regulation is doing to British business, particularly to small- and medium-sized businesses” and concluded:

The UK is roughly 11.5% of GDP – about £185bn a year – worse off because it is a member of the EU instead of being a fully independent sovereign nation.

[Westbars Spireite]

If I wasn't sure which way to vote, the propaganda I had through the door has made my mind up to vote 'out'.

There's every chance that rubbish will backfire.

[Goku]

Westbars Spireite, on 13 April 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

If I wasn't sure which way to vote, the propaganda I had through the door has made my mind up to vote 'out'.

There's every chance that rubbish will backfire.

My first reaction was "out" as well because of that attempted mind control b/s.

[Search & Destroy]

Just chucked mine.

[frearsghost]

[quote name='frearsghost' timestamp='1456052875' post='1188916']
I attended the 'Grassroots Out' campaign meeting last Friday where some big names speakers from across the political spectrum demonstrated the referendum is not about party politics but individual conscience. The Trades' Unions and small businesses were well represented. One big union, we were told, is to declare its opposition to the EU tomorrow. They were particularly critical of the Labour Party Machine that has completely shut down debate on the issue from within the party.

Of major EU concern are ISDS's (Investor State Dispute Settlements.) These allow corporates/businesses to challenge government policy if they believe they impede business. TTIP's (Translantic Trade & Investment Partnerships) are being introduced by the EU to increase the power of American corporates allowing them to change the laws of a country that would favour their concerns. The evidence that the EU is, primarily, a corporate machine facilitating the needs of powerful global institutions, rather than the citizens of Europe, is becoming clearer. We are witnessing, the EU continuing to undermine nation state democracy and transfer of power into the hands of few.

...................................................................................................................

More on this:

Changes are afoot in Europe. I think we are seeing a transition from class war to a new conflict between ordinary people and the rapidly growing power of world corporate multi-nationals. This is being played out in the EU referendum

People really need to acquaint themselves with TTIP (see above )secretly being negotiated in Brussels which is the biggest threat ever to our NHS. This trade partnership between the EU and American multi-nationals is about to give American companies the legal right to buy large sections of the NHS. O'Bama is coming over next week to grease the referendum that will faciliate this treaty.

Cameron and Corbyn's Labour Party have both affiliated themselves with the EU and by definition to TTIP. Should we vote to remain, there is nothing they can do to prevent this transatlantic treaty becoming law. For me, the referendum is nothing to do with the political left or right but is one of the people versus the politicians.

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 15 April 2016 - 07:08 PM

[Town_Fan]

TTIP is coming whether we are part of the EU or not. The yanks are bullying everyone into that.

[Search & Destroy]

So, Remain are convinced leaving will be a disaster and will cost each household £4500.

cooking bargain I reckon.

[SpireiteFitzy]

Personally getting fed up of this circus which is the referendum. Both sides one upping each other's attempts at scaremongering people into voting for them. Remain's chief scare tactic telling us how we are gonna lose tonnes of jobs and our economy going to go to s**t by wrecking our EU trade deals. Leave going for the immigration tack by saying how our borders will carry on seeping migrants and Brussels red tape if we stay.

And all these so called 'experts' on both sides giving us 'facts' about what will happen should either scenario play out. There's only one fact about the repercussions of this referendum, and that's that there are no facts. There is no precedent for a major country leaving the EU so we have absolutely no idea how its going to pan out, which means we have no idea how it'll stack against staying.

Personally I think, that like Scotland, moderate leave voters will choke and go 'better the devil you know' than actually risk something that could adversely affect their lives.

[Search & Destroy]

SpireiteFitzy, on 20 April 2016 - 02:00 AM, said:

Personally getting fed up of this circus which is the referendum. Both sides one upping each other's attempts at scaremongering people into voting for them. Remain's chief scare tactic telling us how we are gonna lose tonnes of jobs and our economy going to go to s**t by wrecking our EU trade deals. Leave going for the immigration tack by saying how our borders will carry on seeping migrants and Brussels red tape if we stay.

And all these so called 'experts' on both sides giving us 'facts' about what will happen should either scenario play out. There's only one fact about the repercussions of this referendum, and that's that there are no facts. There is no precedent for a major country leaving the EU so we have absolutely no idea how its going to pan out, which means we have no idea how it'll stack against staying.

Personally I think, that like Scotland, moderate leave voters will choke and go 'better the devil you know' than actually risk something that could adversely affect their lives.

One in five new starters in primary schools do not have English as a first language.

Obvs in some places it's much, much higher. In London it's 48%

[JonB]

Its just the usual XXX for tat arguing that always happens with these things thats getting boring to be honest.....both sides are just as bad giving out some figures and "research" into things and the other rather than try to counter it with figures and research the other way just resort to name calling and petty comments about said figures\research.