[Zigsuk]

Reading the Grimsby thread and the comments on Horton it made me think, like much else in football, the role of full back has changed , hence them often being called wing backs, as they are expected to provide a more attacking threat. Consequently it seems that many of them these days are better going forward than they are defending. Trent Alexander Arnold. generally considered one of the best wing backs around, has often been criticised for his defending.
There have always been attacking full backs, notably the great Terry Cooper at Leeds who really was like a winger, although Jairzinho made mincemeat of him in the 1970 World Cup and I can?t really remember his defensive qualities.
It must be very difficult to find a fullback with both qualities. I suppose
Albert Holmes did have both which is what made him the best full back I have seen for us. II remember him going forward, whilst his perfectly timed slide tackles to fairly dispossess an opponent were beautiful to watch.

[Cartman]

John Ryan was an attacking full back before that was a thing

[Fit as a Nelson]

You know full back and wing back is a different position don?t you?

[Osborne again]

Zigsuk, on 18 January 2025 - 10:20 AM, said:

Reading the Grimsby thread and the comments on Horton it made me think, like much else in football, the role of full back has changed , hence them often being called wing backs, as they are expected to provide a more attacking threat. Consequently it seems that many of them these days are better going forward than they are defending. Trent Alexander Arnold. generally considered one of the best wing backs around, has often been criticised for his defending.
There have always been attacking full backs, notably the great Terry Cooper at Leeds who really was like a winger, although Jairzinho made mincemeat of him in the 1970 World Cup and I can?t really remember his defensive qualities.
It must be very difficult to find a fullback with both qualities. I suppose
Albert Holmes did have both which is what made him the best full back I have seen for us. II remember him going forward, whilst his perfectly timed slide tackles to fairly dispossess an opponent were beautiful to watch.

Albert Holmes must be the best full back never to have played in the top two divisions of English football. You could slot him straight into our side now, if he was in his prime, and the younger supporters would grow to love his style of play overnight. His slide tackle, as you say, was clean and legal in this day and age and certainly didn't raise an eye in his heyday. He even played as striker in one game, and he scored too.

[Zigsuk]

Fit as a Nelson, on 19 January 2025 - 07:13 AM, said:

You know full back and wing back is a different position don?t you?

Usual carp from you re everything I post. The whole point is that they are not. Modern players are usually required to perform both roles.

[Zigsuk]

Osborne again, on 19 January 2025 - 09:53 AM, said:

Albert Holmes must be the best full back never to have played in the top two divisions of English football. You could slot him straight into our side now, if he was in his prime, and the younger supporters would grow to love his style of play overnight. His slide tackle, as you say, was clean and legal in this day and age and certainly didn't raise an eye in his heyday. He even played as striker in one game, and he scored too.

Yes I remember that. Wasn?t it in 1974 against Cambridge during the power cuts? The game was played on I think a Wednesday afternoon as they weren?t allowed to use floodlights. I?d come straight from school. The attendance of 2000 odd was the smallest I had seen and little atmosphere, but I recall the sparse crowd chanting Albert, Albert!

[Fit as a Nelson]

Zigsuk, on 19 January 2025 - 11:47 AM, said:

Usual carp from you re everything I post. The whole point is that they are not. Modern players are usually required to perform both roles.

Can?t you have a sensible conversation? I?m sorry but you?re wrong. Wing backs are when a team plays 3 at the back, they aren?t usually in the last line of defence they are more like defensive wingers if you will. Full backs are your traditional wide defenders in a flat back four. You can get attacking full backs, doesn?t mean they are playing wing back if that?s the point you are trying to make?

Take Jeff King and Calvin Miller as perfect recent examples as wing backs, it is a specialist position which the two of them suited perfectly. When Cook came in and switched us back to a flat back four both players never really fit the system and subsequently left the club.

[Osborne again]

Zigsuk, on 19 January 2025 - 11:53 AM, said:

Yes I remember that. Wasn?t it in 1974 against Cambridge during the power cuts? The game was played on I think a Wednesday afternoon as they weren?t allowed to use floodlights. I?d come straight from school. The attendance of 2000 odd was the smallest I had seen and little atmosphere, but I recall the sparse crowd chanting Albert, Albert!

I think he played a couple of games at centre forward, one in his early career and this one. Was the game kick off time around 1.30 pm during the three day week?
Albert's slide tackle was studied by myself and I even got a few pointers from the great man himself. I played all up the left side of the pitch, but full back was my favourite, because of Albert Holmes.
Great full back who could and should have played for the mid-table old first division and I'm thinking both of the Sheffield clubs, Burnley and the likes Southampton, he was that good.

[Old Exile]

Osborne again, on 19 January 2025 - 09:53 AM, said:

Albert Holmes must be the best full back never to have played in the top two divisions of English football. You could slot him straight into our side now, if he was in his prime, and the younger supporters would grow to love his style of play overnight. His slide tackle, as you say, was clean and legal in this day and age and certainly didn't raise an eye in his heyday. He even played as striker in one game, and he scored too.

Ahh! Fond memories of Albert and Gerry Sears. Great players 👍⚽️⚽️

[Osborne again]

Old Exile, on 19 January 2025 - 01:52 PM, said:

Ahh! Fond memories of Albert and Gerry Sears. Great players 👍⚽️⚽️

Yep, and you can add Albert Phelan too. I'm surprised we ever lost with those at the back and my namesake in goal.

[60s 70s Spireite]

Osborne again, on 19 January 2025 - 01:59 PM, said:

Yep, and you can add Albert Phelan too. I'm surprised we ever lost with those at the back and my namesake in goal.

Thing is, we lost with absolute regularity in those days. Amongst the darkest days of the club, until you know when.
It wasnt until Osborne had long gone, Gerry retired, that at last we started winning.

[Zigsuk]

Fit as a Nelson, on 19 January 2025 - 12:00 PM, said:

Can?t you have a sensible conversation? I?m sorry but you?re wrong. Wing backs are when a team plays 3 at the back, they aren?t usually in the last line of defence they are more like defensive wingers if you will. Full backs are your traditional wide defenders in a flat back four. You can get attacking full backs, doesn?t mean they are playing wing back if that?s the point you are trying to make?

Take Jeff King and Calvin Miller as perfect recent examples as wing backs, it is a specialist position which the two of them suited perfectly. When Cook came in and switched us back to a flat back four both players never really fit the system and subsequently left the club.

Ok so what?s the difference between a wing back and a winger then? I see what you mean about King as I believe he played that role for Halifax, but I understood Miller was a traditional winger who didn?t have too many defensive duties. There does seem to be a tradition at town for converting wingers into wing back or full backs. Talbot, Darwika and before them Mark Jules all began as offensive players before converting relatively quickly to more defensive positions.
The point is whoever plays in the old 2, 3 positions seems to be expected to play a more attacking role these days regardless of what it?s called. This seems to be why many of them seem better going forward than defending. Horton being a classic example, and King too but they are far from alone.

BTW I expect you are too young to remember Albert Holmes?

This post has been edited by Zigsuk: 19 January 2025 - 02:26 PM

[Osborne again]

Zigsuk, on 19 January 2025 - 02:24 PM, said:

Ok so what?s the difference between a wing back and a winger then? I see what you mean about King as I believe he played that role for Halifax, but I understood Miller was a traditional winger who didn?t have too many defensive duties. There does seem to be a tradition at town for converting wingers into wing back or full backs. Talbot, Darwika and before them Mark Jules all began as offensive players before converting relatively quickly to more defensive positions.
The point is whoever plays in the old 2, 3 positions seems to be expected to play a more attacking role these days regardless of what it?s called. This seems to be why many of them seem better going forward than defending. Horton being a classic example, and King too but they are far from alone.

BTW I expect you are too young to remember Albert Holmes?

Mate, a lot of people don't realise that full backs like Albert Holmes,Len Badger and Jimmy Armfield were racing up and down the wings providing crosses into the box way before the 66 World Cup, it's just that Cohen and Wilson made it fashionable.