[Arnold Tabbs]

Zigsuk, on 02 December 2023 - 11:05 AM, said:

Obviously we have to bear in mind that he hasn't yet been found guilty and as I suggested earlier may well not be - indeed at a rough estimate I would hazard 50/50. On the one hand the CPS don't usually prosecute unless they think there's a very good chance of a conviction, on the other hand as I suggested he would have been advised to plead guilty if his lawyers thought he had little chance of being acquitted, so it appears finely balanced. The other thing is we are only going on rumours regarding the details of what he actually was alleged to have done, although that will doubtless be revealed soon. As it stands, although what he is alleged to have done sounds very bad, and as people have suggeted should not be happening in the workplace, it doesn't sound as if it's the kind of offence to attract a custodial sentence even if the 'hang em and flog em brigade' think it should.
Finally, even if he is acquitted there will almost certainly be the rumours of 'no smoke without fire.' This trial, whatever the outcome, his behaviour at West Ham, and some of the clips of him in the dugout suggest even if he is proven not guilty he does come across as as pretty unpleasant man. Even if acquitted it will be touch and go whether he ever works in professional football again.

Pleading not guilty doesn't mean that somebody thinks that they are going to be cleared. After all, Lucy Letby pled not guilty even though there was an enormous stack of evidence against her. A counter argument would be that if the CPS didn't think there was a decent chance of a guilty verdict they wouldn't have agreed to prosecute.

I really don't think you are in a position to be able to predict the outcome, nor what any sentence would be. The evidence hasn't been heard in Court yet. Besides, nobody has suggested either hanging or flogging James Rowe; folk just want him to get whatever sentence is an adequate deterrent if he's found guilty. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

[fishini]

Snowflake McBedwetter, on 02 December 2023 - 04:01 PM, said:

James Rowe has plead Not Guilty to sexual assault involving an adult.

In a case where he's seemingly likely to be found Not Guilty. Not sure where or why child abuse comes into it.

You have no heart or soul.

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

Osborne again, on 02 December 2023 - 05:25 PM, said:

It's ok being flippant until it lands on your doorstep, trust me.

I'm not being flippant. What James Rowe has been accused of has literally nothing to do with child abuse.

This post has been edited by Snowflake McBedwetter: 02 December 2023 - 06:29 PM

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

Arnold Tabbs, on 02 December 2023 - 06:08 PM, said:

Pleading not guilty doesn't mean that somebody thinks that they are going to be cleared. After all, Lucy Letby pled not guilty even though there was an enormous stack of evidence against her. A counter argument would be that if the CPS didn't think there was a decent chance of a guilty verdict they wouldn't have agreed to prosecute.

I really don't think you are in a position to be able to predict the outcome, nor what any sentence would be. The evidence hasn't been heard in Court yet. Besides, nobody has suggested either hanging or flogging James Rowe; folk just want him to get whatever sentence is an adequate deterrent if he's found guilty. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

Not suggesting it does.

However, the CPS consistently goes after people in football (and no doubt elsewhere) with charges that have no chance of success in a court of law and shouldn't see the light of day. And everytime they do the same lynch mob pop up in here.

You'd think the Ched Evans, Mason Greenwood and Mendy cases might make people think twice.

[fishini]

Snowflake McBedwetter, on 02 December 2023 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'm not being flippant. What James Rowe has been accused of has literally nothing to do with child abuse.

The point I was to trying to make was that sexual abuse never goes away. I can't speak for adults as I don't know any accept for my children who are adults now and its still with them

[fishini]

Arnold Tabbs, on 02 December 2023 - 06:08 PM, said:

Pleading not guilty doesn't mean that somebody thinks that they are going to be cleared. After all, Lucy Letby pled not guilty even though there was an enormous stack of evidence against her. A counter argument would be that if the CPS didn't think there was a decent chance of a guilty verdict they wouldn't have agreed to prosecute.

I really don't think you are in a position to be able to predict the outcome, nor what any sentence would be. The evidence hasn't been heard in Court yet. Besides, nobody has suggested either hanging or flogging James Rowe; folk just want him to get whatever sentence is an adequate deterrent if he's found guilty. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence' means that just because an investigation does not yield evidence for a certain claim, it does not mean that the claim is actually false.

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

Snowflake McBedwetter, on 02 December 2023 - 06:36 PM, said:

Not suggesting it does.

However, the CPS consistently goes after people in football (and no doubt elsewhere) with charges that have no chance of success in a court of law and shouldn't see the light of day. And everytime they do the same lynch mob pop up in here.

You'd think the Ched Evans, Mason Greenwood and Mendy cases might make people think twice.

All of whom would have been able to afford a far better set of lawyers than Rowe

[dim view]

Ernie Ernie Ernie, on 03 December 2023 - 08:55 AM, said:

All of whom would have been able to afford a far better set of lawyers than Rowe

As a general point, nowt to do with this case, wor I'd like to know is whether the totally unreasonable delay in bringing a case to court, all caused by Failing Grayling, can be used by barristers when they are bargaining.

'M'Lud, a whole lot of time and money can be saved today by taking into consideration my Client's behaviour over the last 2 years. Deliver your verdict and let's all go home'.

[Sammy Spireite]

Jury sworn in and trial due to get underway tomorrow.

[DerbySpireite59]

Snowflake McBedwetter, on 02 December 2023 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'm not being flippant. What James Rowe has been accused of has literally nothing to do with child abuse.

The alleged victim is someone's child. End of.

[Zigsuk]

Sammy Spireite, on 04 December 2023 - 01:46 PM, said:

Jury sworn in and trial due to get underway tomorrow.

Why can’t it get underway today? No wonder these things take so long.

[DIFH]

Zigsuk, on 04 December 2023 - 05:03 PM, said:

Why can’t it get underway today? No wonder these things take so long.

Defendants can challenge jury members, the wheels of justice are a money making machine for lawyers/barristers.

My feelings are it will be not guilty in the end - reasonable doubt is hard to overcome.

This post has been edited by DIFH: 04 December 2023 - 07:12 PM

[Lincs Spireite]

DIFH, on 04 December 2023 - 07:08 PM, said:

Defendants can challenge jury members, the wheels of justice are a money making machine for lawyers/barristers.

My feelings are it will be not guilty in the end - reasonable doubt is hard to overcome.

I reckon you are right. Isn't his father in law v.rich and can afford good barristers ?

[DIFH]

Lincs Spireite, on 04 December 2023 - 07:29 PM, said:

I reckon you are right. Isn't his father in law v.rich and can afford good barristers ?

No idea

[sophocles]

Lincs Spireite, on 04 December 2023 - 07:29 PM, said:

I reckon you are right. Isn't his father in law v.rich and can afford good barristers ?

No idea, but in the circumstances it would be a bit odd if his wife's father was willing to back him wouldn't it?

[moondog]

Just a reminder now the trial is underway for folks to show restraint in what they post and not say anything that could be prejudicial

[Holmesc1]

As i said last year why has this taken so long to get to court? Whether james rowe is guilty or not its no good for him been on bail so long and no good for alleged victim either. If this case had been up in court a year ago he could have served his sentence if found guilty and been out of jail by now. Surely its not been adjourned for so long so prosecution and defence could gather more evidence

[DIFH]

Holmesc1, on 04 December 2023 - 11:38 PM, said:

As i said last year why has this taken so long to get to court? Whether james rowe is guilty or not its no good for him been on bail so long and no good for alleged victim either. If this case had been up in court a year ago he could have served his sentence if found guilty and been out of jail by now. Surely its not been adjourned for so long so prosecution and defence could gather more evidence

Covid back log for one.

[Price]

Holmesc1, on 04 December 2023 - 11:38 PM, said:

As i said last year why has this taken so long to get to court? Whether james rowe is guilty or not its no good for him been on bail so long and no good for alleged victim either. If this case had been up in court a year ago he could have served his sentence if found guilty and been out of jail by now. Surely its not been adjourned for so long so prosecution and defence could gather more evidence

As Dave said COVID backlog in part. Closing Buxton and Ilkeston courts in recent years hasn't helped either as more people go through Chesterfield and Derby

[Somerset Spireite]

Holmesc1, on 04 December 2023 - 11:38 PM, said:

As i said last year why has this taken so long to get to court? Whether james rowe is guilty or not its no good for him been on bail so long and no good for alleged victim either. If this case had been up in court a year ago he could have served his sentence if found guilty and been out of jail by now. Surely its not been adjourned for so long so prosecution and defence could gather more evidence

You're quite right, in the interests of justice and victim/witness/defendant well-being it is indeed far too long. And it (probably) won't be a matter of gathering further evidence - sadly, it is "just the way it is". The courts are swamped and under resourced, and the timetabling of cases is very protracted, with lots of deadlines for defence statements, disclosure, etc.

As a prosecutor I got a crown court case listed this September to take place in October .... 2024. That sort of wait is by no means unusual.

This post has been edited by Somerset Spireite: 05 December 2023 - 11:45 AM