[Guest_freelander2_*]

a kick in the balls, on 08 November 2015 - 09:12 PM, said:

Another question to ask - "is it true that bailiffs turned up at the proact recently"

Never?

[Westbars Spireite]

freelander2, on 08 November 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

Never?

Related to CT's business venture across the road I was told.

[Goku]

ooh are we bringing this one into the open now

[h again]

MDCCCLXVI, on 08 November 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Wow!

Just...wow!

Replying twice to the same post then two of your own - your own?

That's really kinda weird...

But for clarity what you actually said was 'We've had every possible version of how wrong I am, so we'll take that as read', remarkable humility which I praised. So is the accusation I imagined it an example of the 'denial and deceit' of which I spoke? And by the way, you left that thread complaining about a few little red numbers - more 'ducking and dodging', perhaps?

Then there's your comment about the CEO's financial skills 'not amounting to very much' - your words: is this the same 'h-again' who's spent post after post after post sneering at others for saying exactly that? Who's repeatedly scorned supposed 'know-nothing conspiracy theorists' for questioning Turner's abilities? Hmmm, seems like a pretty obvious bit of twisting and turning to me. And this only a few months after insisting CT was absolutely right to say no one's going to Pompey 'cos they weren't - before declaring that Roberts had been 'off since April' - whilst at the same time alleging Paul Cook plotted against Town despite numerous attacks on anyone even hinting things might not be as they should be behind the CFC scenes.

That's just off the top of my head.

If I were you I'd let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak; both for your own and the sake of those who have to read your obsessive posturing.




Good post, Dave.




As insightful and informative as ever, 'F2'.

A few thoughts of my own, too: the last set of accounts will've included the pay-offs for both Alan Stevenson and Gary Cook, won't they? I'll repeat that I've not spoken to GC on this issue yet it wouldn't surprise me if that figure approached or exceeded six figures. Meanwhile the Club appointed Kevin Fitzerald, who I guess Chris Turner knew through their Sheffield connections, and former Wednesday player Roger Wylde. I'd suggest neither came on minimum wage. Then there was the installation of the 'big screen' costing a reported hundred thousand pounds - sponsored in part or not - and the refurb of the lounges and reception area. More money.

All of those outgoings are in the public domain, so to speak, however what we'll probably never find out is who enjoyed what from the sale of players. I'm not gonna start pointing fingers but surely everyone accepts percentages of what was paid will've ended up in various pockets. Nothing illegal in that but another expense which might explain the gap between record receipts and the debt continuing to rise. Alongside good old fashioned taxes, of course.

Any chance of you or someone else accessing a more comprehensive set of accounts at Company House?

Wow indeed. I'd be embarrassed to write such ordure.

1. I didn't reply to my own message - I bumped it because you were dragging your heels answering. I can see why now.
2. You did come up with every conceivable version of how wrong I was - none of which would fool a child for a minute.

3. 'Ducking and dodging' because I drew attention to a few reds - you've said yourself they're a sign of stupidity. Were you ducking and dodging, or is it one rule for Snell and another for the rest?

4. CT's financial skills. I'm assuming they don't amount to great deal, but if you assure me he has a degree in Accountancy I'll accept that. He's run the club in its period of greatest success, which is good enough for me to be going on with. I don't know the level of his financial acumen, and neither do you, as becomes increasingly clear. The losses may be due to incompetence or a strategy to buy success, we don't know yet, so it's futile to reach a judgement and play the blame game.

5. Did I allege that PC 'plotted' against CFC. Produce the actual quote if so - I don't recall it. For the record he's the best manager we ever had, and therefore it was only a matter of time before he went bigger, and he decided that at some early stage - the date of which we don't know - but 'plotting', no way.

6. Nearly missed this one in the dense verbiage. The 'nobody's going to Portsmouth' quote. At the time Portsmouth were after Roberts and negotiating hard cash - does that give you a clue? It's how you negotiate a deal - what it means is 'he's not leaving until you up the offer'. It staggers me that you can try to present it as anything other than a negotiating tactic.


So, your usual load of lengthy nothing, which most people could have produced far more effectively in a couple of sentences, let alone 8 paragraphs. As for the 'ducking, dodging, deceit' etc. - get real.
And all followed as usual by the customary veiled slurs against CFC members of staff, which 'freelander' has effectively shown below to be just that - slurs. When will you learn?
I also notice that despite my answering of all your allegations, you're maintaining a modest silence on the question of why you persistently badgered Barrie Hubbard to spend money on the club, but get all shirty when DA does it? Any sign of your thoughts on that one?

[h again]

azul, on 08 November 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

I don't understand where you are coming from on this occasion. The figure you quoted was the total wage bill. The club made a statement on the football costs....

"In total we spent just over £3m on the football side, including players, coaching staff, management and bonuses"

That doesn't seem that extreme when you have a turnover of £7.4M

The wage bill as you stated was nigh on £4.4 so that must be around £1.3M going on non football related wages. I can't see the girl serving me my Bovril will eat int that budget too much

Also with a total wage bill of £4.4M, any idea where the other £3M has gone?

If £1.3M is going on non-football wages, that represents round about a third of what's going on the nitty gritty - the playing staff, their management and coaches. That seems excessive, to say the least - who are these people? You could have ten executives on 100 grand, leaving £0.3 M for the bar staff and stewards, for that amount and all they'd be doing is picking their noses and flicking it about. So what's to do - or am I missing something here?

[dim view]

h again, on 09 November 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

If £1.3M is going on non-football wages, that represents round about a third of what's going on the nitty gritty - the playing staff, their management and coaches. That seems excessive, to say the least - who are these people? You could have ten executives on 100 grand, leaving £0.3 M for the bar staff and stewards, for that amount and all they'd be doing is picking their noses and flicking it about. So what's to do - or am I missing something here?

Total administrative expenses £6,499,860 is presumably what needs accounting for, and I can account for £4,374,147 on total staff costs and £85,000 to Alan Walters.

So that leaves a juicy £2,040,713 gone on summat else. Perhaps more qualified folk could add their 2 pennarth?.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

60s 70s Spireite, on 08 November 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

The accounts in the public arena will be the only ones filed at Companies House. Only directors, HMRC and external funders will see a full set, and be entitled to further explanations.

I would also like to know exactly how much of Trust's debt was written off (is it the £170k the loan went down by) and why have the tax liabilities at the year end risen by so much? Is it to do with the Trust debt, and if not is this also a hit on the profit and loss account?

The lack of disclosure on the accounts about the Trust loan write off suggests the Directors are not keen to tell us the background. However when the Trust files its own accounts, which are much more detailed, we may get a better idea.

Thanks '60s 70s Spireite'.

You clearly have a superior grasp of these issues and I welcome your contribution.

freelander2, on 08 November 2015 - 09:06 PM, said:

1) AS - He came here as a self employed consultant, I don't see any reason why that would have changed.

2) GC - Unless the club screwed up, I can't imagine the settlement figure being anywhere near the amount you mentioned. Besides & without researching, I think any claim for unfair/constructive dismissal (should that have been applicable) is capped at circa £70K or 12 months salary.

3) Scoreboard - Reading between the lines, this strikes me as a bit of reciprocal trading. The supplier retains ownership of the screen & the rental is covered by FOC sponsorship/exposure.

4) KF was recommended to the club by Rotherham's Commercial Director.

5) With regards to refurbishments costs, these wouldn't have impacted on the P&L.

And thanks Mike.

Another reasoned and knowledgeable response making points I'm more than happy to embrace.

But then unfortunately...

h again, on 09 November 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Wow indeed. I'd be embarrassed to write such ordure.

1. I didn't reply to my own message - I bumped it because you were dragging your heels answering. I can see why now.
2. You did come up with every conceivable version of how wrong I was - none of which would fool a child for a minute.

3. 'Ducking and dodging' because I drew attention to a few reds - you've said yourself they're a sign of stupidity. Were you ducking and dodging, or is it one rule for Snell and another for the rest?

4. CT's financial skills. I'm assuming they don't amount to great deal, but if you assure me he has a degree in Accountancy I'll accept that. He's run the club in its period of greatest success, which is good enough for me to be going on with. I don't know the level of his financial acumen, and neither do you, as becomes increasingly clear. The losses may be due to incompetence or a strategy to buy success, we don't know yet, so it's futile to reach a judgement and play the blame game.

5. Did I allege that PC 'plotted' against CFC. Produce the actual quote if so - I don't recall it. For the record he's the best manager we ever had, and therefore it was only a matter of time before he went bigger, and he decided that at some early stage - the date of which we don't know - but 'plotting', no way.

6. Nearly missed this one in the dense verbiage. The 'nobody's going to Portsmouth' quote. At the time Portsmouth were after Roberts and negotiating hard cash - does that give you a clue? It's how you negotiate a deal - what it means is 'he's not leaving until you up the offer'. It staggers me that you can try to present it as anything other than a negotiating tactic.


So, your usual load of lengthy nothing, which most people could have produced far more effectively in a couple of sentences, let alone 8 paragraphs. As for the 'ducking, dodging, deceit' etc. - get real.
And all followed as usual by the customary veiled slurs against CFC members of staff, which 'freelander' has effectively shown below to be just that - slurs. When will you learn?
I also notice that despite my answering of all your allegations, you're maintaining a modest silence on the question of why you persistently badgered Barrie Hubbard to spend money on the club, but get all shirty when DA does it? Any sign of your thoughts on that one?

1. You replied to your own posts. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

2. You admitted being wrong. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

3. You baled out of a thread complaining about little red numbers. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

4. You stated CT's financial skills aren't up to much after spending years sneering at folk for saying exactly that. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

5. 'h-again' July 14: 'PC got the word that Portsmouth were going to set him on, so the next step is to talk privately to his key players and see who was for going with him.' I think folk get the message by now.

6. You declared that Roberts had been 'off since April' despite earlier insisting CT had been absolutely right to say 'No one's going to Pompey'. As above.

Evidence requested, evidence supplied, and - surprise, surprise - evidence denied.

Meanwhile whilst other discuss thoughts on where the money's gone in a rational manner - suggestions you pompously demanded, of course - all you offer are the usual jeers and smears.

Which is sadly all you seem to have left these days.

This post has been edited by MDCCCLXVI: 09 November 2015 - 06:16 PM

[Guest_freelander2_*]

dim view, on 09 November 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Total administrative expenses £6,499,860 is presumably what needs accounting for, and I can account for £4,374,147 on total staff costs and £85,000 to Alan Walters.

So that leaves a juicy £2,040,713 gone on summat else. Perhaps more qualified folk could add their 2 pennarth?.

£85K to AW was part & final repayment of his loan, therefore no impact on the P&L.

In addition to staffing costs:

£84,973 Amortisation

£114,782 Depreciation on tangible assets

£3,553 Depreciation on tangible assets held under leases

£5,000 Auditors' Remuneration

[Guest_freelander2_*]

dim view, on 08 November 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

I know a bit more now, but not enough to be confident that any detailed explanatory statements would be spot on. Feel free, anybody, to correct me.

CT and another CFC bod have replaced others on the Trust Board, and DalekPete is the new Temporary Chairman. The tax liability is nowt to do with the Trust, which is VAT neutral. My own personal conclusion, having tried and failed to understand a lot of detail, is that DA wants to replace the lease, which nets him a steady £5.7k a year plus minimal interest for 99 years, with an arrangement that gets him his money back far quicker and that Enforcer CT has been put in to make sure it happens. A cynic might suggest that CFC might then be easier to sell.

Presumably, if the £170k was still presented in the 'debtor' column, and we hadn't paid so much tax, then our profit would have been a whopper.

You need to go back & ask for a more detailed explanation!

When I rent a house out, a tenancy agreement is drafted & one thing that is clearly stated is how much the rent will be & when it will be paid, until that document is signed by both parties, the tenant doesn't move in. There's no room for any confusion or dispute.

Now you know as well as I do that this has been bubbling away since before last year's AGM, so what's been going off? You might also want to ask about the reasons behind the termination of a Trustee's position back in January.

[dim view]

freelander2, on 09 November 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

You need to go back & ask for a more detailed explanation!

When I rent a house out, a tenancy agreement is drafted & one thing that is clearly stated is how much the rent will be & when it will be paid, until that document is signed by both parties, the tenant doesn't move in. There's no room for any confusion or dispute.

Now you know as well as I do that this has been bubbling away since before last year's AGM, so what's been going off? You might also want to ask about the reasons behind the termination of a Trustee's position back in January.

why, if you already know?. Just tell us what's happening please.

freelander2, on 09 November 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

£85K to AW was part & final repayment of his loan, therefore no impact on the P&L.

In addition to staffing costs:

£84,973 Amortisation

£114,782 Depreciation on tangible assets

£3,553 Depreciation on tangible assets held under leases

£5,000 Auditors' Remuneration

ta, so it's a less juicy £1,917,405 that's gone on summat else.

[h again]

MDCCCLXVI, on 09 November 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

Thanks '60s 70s Spireite'.

You clearly have a superior grasp of these issues and I welcome your contribution.




And thanks Mike.

Another reasoned and knowledgeable response making points I'm more than happy to embrace.

But then unfortunately...



1. You replied to your own posts. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

2. You admitted being wrong. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

3. You baled out of a thread complaining about little red numbers. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

4. You stated CT's financial skills aren't up to much after spending years sneering at folk for saying exactly that. Stop trying to squirm out of what everyone can see.

5. 'h-again' July 14: 'PC got the word that Portsmouth were going to set him on, so the next step is to talk privately to his key players and see who was for going with him.' I think folk get the message by now.

6. You declared that Roberts had been 'off since April' despite earlier insisting CT had been absolutely right to say 'No one's going to Pompey'. As above.

Evidence requested, evidence supplied, and - surprise, surprise - evidence denied.

Meanwhile whilst other discuss thoughts on where the money's gone in a rational manner - suggestions you pompously demanded, of course - all you offer are the usual jeers and smears.

Which is sadly all you seem to have left these days.

I'm happy to leave the readers of this peculiar stuff to draw their own conclusions. Not a word of it will make any kind of sense to anyone who's actually read my posts, but when did any of your contributions on the management of CFC make any sense?
Including the one in which 'freelander' took your nasty little slurs to pieces - and that's somebody who knows you.

[h again]

dim view, on 09 November 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

why, if you already know?. Just tell us what's happening please.


ta, so it's a less juicy £1,917,405 that's gone on summat else.

Just to get it down a bit further - the actual profit last year was around £330k, but £250k of that went on interest repayment. Just depends on how you present P/L I suppose, but an illustration of how the waters can be muddied.
We could get a tasty player for £250k if we weren't saddled with all that debt.

[Wooden Spoon]

...

This post has been edited by a kick in the balls: 09 November 2015 - 06:49 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

h again said:

1447094775[/url]' post='1159455']
Just to get it down a bit further - the actual profit last year was around £330k, but £250k of that went on interest repayment. Just depends on how you present P/L I suppose, but an illustration of how the waters can be muddied.
We could get a tasty player for £250k if we weren't saddled with all that debt.

It's not the debt that is the problem. The club is operating a loss of over 1 million pounds. That running/operational loss needs to be addressed even before you think about debts and interest on loans.

[dim view]

h again, on 09 November 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Just to get it down a bit further - the actual profit last year was around £330k, but £250k of that went on interest repayment. Just depends on how you present P/L I suppose, but an illustration of how the waters can be muddied.
We could get a tasty player for £250k if we weren't saddled with all that debt.

The total administrative expenses are net of interest payments I think.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

h again, on 09 November 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

I'm happy to leave the readers of this peculiar stuff to draw their own conclusions. Not a word of it will make any kind of sense to anyone who's actually read my posts, but when did any of your contributions on the management of CFC make any sense?
Including the one in which 'freelander' took your nasty little slurs to pieces - and that's somebody who knows you.

As I said, strip away your near pathological twisting and turning and all that's left are bitter, spiteful insults.

Then using third party posts to score petty, personal points?

'F2', '60s 70s' and myself took part in a reasonable and civilised exchange where I accepted their superior knowledge.

Your utter inability to take part in such a reasonable, civilised and knowledgeable exchange has my pity, it truly does, but please stop trying to drag others down to your squalid levels.

[Wooden Spoon]

freelander2, on 09 November 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

£84,973 Amortisation

towards AS leisure?

[h again]

MDCCCLXVI, on 10 November 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

As I said, strip away your near pathological twisting and turning and all that's left are bitter, spiteful insults.

Then using third party posts to score petty, personal points?

'F2', '60s 70s' and myself took part in a reasonable and civilised exchange where I accepted their superior knowledge.

Your utter inability to take part in such a reasonable, civilised and knowledgeable exchange has my pity, it truly does, but please stop trying to drag others down to your squalid levels.

Are you familiar with the word 'pompous'?

You made the customary veiled slurs on CFC personnel and were put right in very civilised manner by 'freelander'. His was the only civilised bit of the exchange, which is there for all to read and form their own opinions.. Tell us again about 'pathological twisting and turning'. I loved that bit.

[The Black Triangle]

h again, on 10 November 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Are you familiar with the word 'pompous'?

You made the customary veiled slurs on CFC personnel and were put right in very civilised manner by 'freelander'. His was the only civilised bit of the exchange, which is there for all to read and form their own opinions.. Tell us again about 'pathological twisting and turning'. I loved that bit.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "it takes two to tango"? You seem to have a lot of dancing partners. Perhaps your the common denominator in these silly arguments? Just a thought. I was enjoying reading this thread, its mostly very well informed debate about the financial side of things, and for those of us who are not overly familiar with the running of a business its very interesting. Mostly. One or two contributors really let the thread down, of which you most certainly are one.

[60s 70s Spireite]

It looks like we have missed out on an ideal candidate for the CEO role.
Chris Anderson appointed by Coventry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/34748337

In a statement released by Coventry City, it says: "Chris has previously worked with a number of professional clubs. He has worked as a financial accountant, leading academic, and professional adviser to the football industry."
He was a professor at an 'Ivy League' establishment, Cornell University in Ithaca, New York.
Anderson and his co-author, former baseball pitcher and fellow American professor David Sally, released a book in 2014 entitled 'The Numbers Game: Why Everything You Know About Football is Wrong'.
In the promotional accompaniment to the book, he is described as an "award-winning social scientist and football analytics pioneer".