[dtp]

Mr Mercury, on 01 November 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Away at Preston in the league last season after being 3-0 down we absolutely crucified them, came away thinking we'd won the World Cup! Also many 1-0 wins under JD were to a point you thought, "why did I bother" but ultimately it is about the points!

Forgot that one Mr Mercury. Can you think of many others or, in fact, any at home because I didn't see the Preston game.

I do remember quite a good 3-3 under JD, I think that was away as well, maybe Old Trafford or somewhere.

Similarly, I saw a 3-3 under Saunders at the Proact but everybody moaned about that even though we only played with 10 men for something like 80 minutes!

[dtp]

Stokespireite, on 01 November 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Cant see the point comparing points tallies from this season to others....... for me its about being entertained..... would i want to watch this style of football every week - definately not!!. Yes we won yesterday but again was dire to watch as a spectator.

Spire Power seems to have a different opinion to you though.

[JonB]

Goku, on 01 November 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Well I don't think that's quite what he said

Could easily be taken that way though....end of the day winning is what matters and if we can do that playing pretty stuff then great but if we have to grind out results to do it then so be it.

[Goku]

JonB, on 01 November 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Could easily be taken that way though....end of the day winning is what matters and if we can do that playing pretty stuff then great but if we have to grind out results to do it then so be it.

I think that's an odd way to take it (ha). He's saying it wasn't entertaining in his opinion, he's not saying or even inferring that he'd be okay with us playing good football but getting relegated. He says "for me it's about being entertained" and you generally aren't being entertained if you're watching your team getting tanked 3-0. "Pretty stuff" draws the crowds, and rightfully so.

[dtp]

Goku, on 01 November 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

I think that's an odd way to take it (ha). He's saying it wasn't entertaining in his opinion, he's not saying or even inferring that he'd be okay with us playing good football but getting relegated. He says "for me it's about being entertained" and you generally aren't being entertained if you're watching your team getting tanked 3-0. "Pretty stuff" draws the crowds, and rightfully so.

Are you saying "pretty stuff" draws the crowds no matter what the result?

Or, do you mean "pretty stuff" draws the crowds if you are also winning.

[JonB]

Goku, on 01 November 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

I think that's an odd way to take it (ha). He's saying it wasn't entertaining in his opinion, he's not saying or even inferring that he'd be okay with us playing good football but getting relegated. He says "for me it's about being entertained" and you generally aren't being entertained if you're watching your team getting tanked 3-0. "Pretty stuff" draws the crowds, and rightfully so.

As already mentioned I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be getting great crowds as we lost but at least passed around a bit looking pretty. He sort of inferred as long as he was entertained it didn't matter what happened. I also don't think many managers are going to last long based on entertaining rather than results.

Again I want to see good football as much as the next person but I want to see us winning and if that means grinding out a not pretty 1-0 win away from home then so be it.

[Goku]

dtp, on 01 November 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Are you saying "pretty stuff" draws the crowds no matter what the result?

Or, do you mean "pretty stuff" draws the crowds if you are also winning.

Obviously it helps when you win

JonB, on 01 November 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

As already mentioned I'm fairly sure we wouldn't be getting great crowds as we lost but at least passed around a bit looking pretty. He sort of inferred as long as he was entertained it didn't matter what happened. I also don't think many managers are going to last long based on entertaining rather than results.

Again I want to see good football as much as the next person but I want to see us winning and if that means grinding out a not pretty 1-0 win away from home then so be it.

I don't think he inferred that but it's how you read into it I guess so agree to disagree.

Of course, the idealistic scenario is results + good football (Paul Cook). Decent football will generally grant you a bit of leeway if you're not getting the results straight away. I'm not criticising our win against Fleetwood by the way, I didn't go and I'm happy with the points.

[JonB]

Goku, on 01 November 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Obviously it helps when you win



I don't think he inferred that but it's how you read into it I guess so agree to disagree.

Of course, the idealistic scenario is results + good football (Paul Cook). Decent football will generally grant you a bit of leeway if you're not getting the results straight away. I'm not criticising our win against Fleetwood by the way, I didn't go and I'm happy with the points.

Yep probably a case of how you take the written word on a message board. You're right that results and entertaining stuff, Colchester at home last season for example, is the ideal outcome but clubs at our level won't do it that often. For all the negativity this season when folk had is down before a ball being kicked you can't turn your nose up at 3pts away from home however it comes.

[Lincs Spireite]

JonB, on 01 November 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Could easily be taken that way though....end of the day winning is what matters and if we can do that playing pretty stuff then great but if we have to grind out results to do it then so be it.

I don't know about anyone else , but when I go to a football match I want to be entertained. I would not be happy if we played hoofball and lost possession all the time but sneaked a lucky goal to win. I accept everyone is different and to some the only thing that is important is 3 points. However if people feel they have had their money's worth watching entertaining footy then IMO it can only help improve sales on the day.

[Guest_freelander2_*]

I think there are too many factors to consider when assessing Saunders' contribution & whether or not some of the criticism is valid. However, a few points to consider, in no particular order:

1) Saunders hasn't had the luxury of being appointed as a successor to a failing manager. In my book, the previous manager overachieved.

2) Cook saw two of his signings sold (Cooper & Doyle) without any significant reinvestment in the squad.

3) Four of Cook's signings (Cooper, Doyle, Clucas & Robbo) were sold for fees, plus the sale of Darikwa, who became a better player under Cook's guidance.

4) On the whole, the side that Cook sent out was entertaining.

5) There appeared to be some longevity in the players that Cook signed.

6) If you listened to the podcast, you will have heard Dalekpete suggesting that Saunders' signings are on better terms than the players who have left the club.

7) Whether intentional or not, the direction of the club has changed, I suspect some fans feel disengaged & frustrated & for most, Saunders is the target man.

8) Cook offered added value, he changed the culture of the club & supporters signed up to the project.

9) I suspect Saunders is not as high maintenance or demanding as his predecessor.

[calvin plummers socks]

freelander2, on 01 November 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

I think there are too many factors to consider when assessing Saunders' contribution & whether or not some of the criticism is valid. However, a few points to consider, in no particular order:

1) Saunders hasn't had the luxury of being appointed as a successor to a failing manager. In my book, the previous manager overachieved.

2) Cook saw two of his signings sold (Cooper & Doyle) without any significant reinvestment in the squad.

3) Four of Cook's signings (Cooper, Doyle, Clucas & Robbo) were sold for fees, plus the sale of Darikwa, who became a better player under Cook's guidance.

4) On the whole, the side that Cook sent out was entertaining.

5) There appeared to be some longevity in the players that Cook signed.

6) If you listened to the podcast, you will have heard Dalekpete suggesting that Saunders' signings are on better terms than the players who have left the club.

7) Whether intentional or not, the direction of the club has changed, I suspect some fans feel disengaged & frustrated & for most, Saunders is the target man.

8) Cook offered added value, he changed the culture of the club & supporters signed up to the project.

9) I suspect Saunders is not as high maintenance or demanding as his predecessor.

May not be as pretty on the pitch but off the pitch it's certainly a damn more professional than under Cook or Sheridan

[Wooden Spoon]

freelander2, on 01 November 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

I think there are too many factors to consider when assessing Saunders' contribution & whether or not some of the criticism is valid. However, a few points to consider, in no particular order:

1) Saunders hasn't had the luxury of being appointed as a successor to a failing manager. In my book, the previous manager overachieved.

5) There appeared to be some longevity in the players that Cook signed.

6) If you listened to the podcast, you will have heard Dalekpete suggesting that Saunders' signings are on better terms than the players who have left the club.

7) Whether intentional or not, the direction of the club has changed, I suspect some fans feel disengaged & frustrated & for most, Saunders is the target man.

8) Cook offered added value, he changed the culture of the club & supporters signed up to the project.

Excellent points.

Signings like Novak, SEB and perhaps Herd have pedigree, but little or no sell on value and higher wages - which seems to go against what the clubs previous "model" seemed to be.

Has the baby been thrown out with the bath water? Its a strange and sudden change in direction.




However, I can see the appeal that DS had to the board. Success at Doncaster, success at Wrexham when working with younger players, and in terms of conduct and reputation - a safe pair of hands.

[mattthespireite]

MDCCCLXVI, on 01 November 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

How can anyone give pre-match warnings after the game?

Not really thought it through, have you Matt lad.

And I'd point you in the direction of my 'Ghosts Of Seasons Past' thread when it comes to my thoughts on the Manager.

So who couldn't wait to post his petty little slaggery?

xx

[Tha Knows...]

metallilad, on 01 November 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

How many of Cooks signings never made any contribution or not made something of themselves though?

How many players make no contribution whatsoever? Surely it's about the degree of contribution if you are evaluating a player. Just off the top I would say Harrison, Gnanduillet and some guy he signed from non league, never played him and released him.

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

Spire-Power, on 01 November 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

How many players make no contribution whatsoever? Surely it's about the degree of contribution if you are evaluating a player. Just off the top I would say Harrison, Gnanduillet and some guy he signed from non league, never played him and released him.

Devitt, Brown,

[Tha Knows...]

Stokespireite, on 01 November 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Cant see the point comparing points tallies from this season to others....... for me its about being entertained..... would i want to watch this style of football every week - definately not!!. Yes we won yesterday but again was dire to watch as a spectator.

I haven't been to any away games this season so far. And for me away games are purely about the result. Did we go regularly go away to L1 teams last season and play them off the park? As for entertainment, at home we have played some good stuff and not got the results the balance of play merited. It isn't hoofball from what I have seen, there are weaknesses in the side resulting from player sales that have been exploited, and we are a work in progress. Some of the build up play under Cook was far too laboured imo, too much sideways passing in our own half. If you get off on that then fair enough, what looks pretty to some looks boring to others, and that's not from someone who likes long ball.

[Tha Knows...]

Bowzer spirey, on 01 November 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

I don't know about anyone else , but when I go to a football match I want to be entertained. I would not be happy if we played hoofball and lost possession all the time but sneaked a lucky goal to win. I accept everyone is different and to some the only thing that is important is 3 points. However if people feel they have had their money's worth watching entertaining footy then IMO it can only help improve sales on the day.

Neither would I but I dont think the policy at home is to play hoofball. I think longer balls have resulted from deficiencies in midfield and DS should be given time to address them before he is judged. Maybe that means being patient with the (unfit) players he has signed and, if that doesn't work, seeing if he brings in other players. We are not in a desperate situation, we are doing ok, and the rebuild job resulting from losing players of the class of Roberts, Ryan, Darikwa and Clucas (none of which I suspect DS was happy to lose) should not be under-estimated. Time gentlemen, please.

[Tha Knows...]

a kick in the balls, on 01 November 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

Excellent points.

Signings like Novak, SEB and perhaps Herd have pedigree, but little or no sell on value and higher wages - which seems to go against what the clubs previous "model" seemed to be.

Has the baby been thrown out with the bath water? Its a strange and sudden change in direction.




However, I can see the appeal that DS had to the board. Success at Doncaster, success at Wrexham when working with younger players, and in terms of conduct and reputation - a safe pair of hands.

He has had to do what he can to get reasonably good results fairly quickly, and so far he has done that. His way has been to gamble on unfit players with a good pedigree and it may turn out to be a good way. Should he have gambled on unknowns that may have a sell-on value but ended up delivering nothing? The sale of key players has obviously created a dilemma not of his choosing and he has chosen a way of dealing with that. He will be judged on how that goes, although some have already made their minds up. He has signed a few young uns - Donohue and Orrell spring to mind, Graham is 23 - so maybe one of those will make some money for the club, or someone else he will sign in the future. It's all a bit early to say imo.

[Half Full]

Spire-Power, on 01 November 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

He has had to do what he can to get reasonably good results fairly quickly, and so far he has done that. His way has been to gamble on unfit players with a good pedigree and it may turn out to be a good way. Should he have gambled on unknowns that may have a sell-on value but ended up delivering nothing? The sale of key players has obviously created a dilemma not of his choosing and he has chosen a way of dealing with that. He will be judged on how that goes, although some have already made their minds up. He has signed a few young uns - Donohue and Orrell spring to mind, Graham is 23 - so maybe one of those will make some money for the club, or someone else he will sign in the future. It's all a bit early to say imo.

Also seems to have given real confidence to Jones, O'Shea and Gardner. I suspect other clubs might look at them especially Jones.

[Tha Knows...]

Half Full, on 01 November 2015 - 10:29 PM, said:

Also seems to have given real confidence to Jones, O'Shea and Gardner. I suspect other clubs might look at them especially Jones.

Good point HF, although O'Shea will probably never have a tackle in him he seems to be working better on the midfield side of his game and Gardner is tracking back more. Hopefully we will see Ariyibi and Simons develop their all round games too.
Regardless of who had been appointed as PC's successor I do wonder what fans expect this season following the loss of so many key players - the play offs??!
Purely guesswork but as I see it as we will win some and lose some, home results will improve and away results will fall back, and we will get enough points to stay up. I will be happy with that in all the circumstances. Anything else is a bonus.