[longeatonspireite]

NOKIN, on 12 December 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

I used to stand in the middle of the kop behind the goal, near trickytrev and his mates and I used to like it there. However, I dont buy into the "cracking atmosphere of the old standing kop" hype.

I have been sat on the kop at the Proact and experienced a great atmosphere on par with anything I experienced on the kop at Saltergate. I have stood on the kop many an afternoon where the atmosphere has been dire, it wasn't as great as folk make out.

I was worried about is at the time we moved but for me, its not made any difference to the atmosphere at games. If anything I think I have witnessed better atmospheres than at Saltergate, mainly because we get more families in now and its a more friendly, less hostile place to be.

I agree the atmosphere of late has been poor but thats because we have been rubbish, did Saltergate rock under Dave Rushbury.. erm... no! Now Mr Cook has things in hand and results are going our way I expect to see a big improvement in gates and a better atmosphere at games.

I loved standing on the kop at Saltergate but would I have it back? Not on your life.

I agree. For years the number of kids and ladies, young mums, girlfriends etc were very low.
When we moved and I know that it was a special year, but the numbers of kids a ladies increased noticeably. I am not sure they would have at the Recreation Ground. What you never have you never miss. I started watching the Blues in 1967 and when I was 15 stood right in the middle of the Kop near to 'Gesla' and other 'Skinhead Boot Boys' and I can appreciate what a packed cop feels like but if you have never experienced such an atmosphere you are not going to Know any better. In the early days of the Kop a goal resulted in being covered in cinder dust from the kopbase, those were the days! I still enjoy standing when I get the chance at away games but my seat in the West stand is fantastic and so are most of the people that sit around me. Same faces but you get to know them and talk football. As for atmospere when the Proact is full and 'bouncing' the atmospere is as good as the old kop was. I dont think standing will come back for financial and safety reasons plus most new fans are used to it now and have not experienced the good old days. From what I have seen so far under Paul Cook the atmospher will be back very soon. Exciting times!

[Tibshelf Spireite]

I think people have the wrong idea of this safe standing, its not free roam like the Kop used to be, everyone is allocated an area in which to stand, which takes away half the point of standing.

I'd love to see it, but i can see them pulling up the karen child, which is full of season ticket holders willing to pay for a seat. The only time it may become feasable is if they decided to fill in the corners (surely only if we got up to the championship and stayed steady) or possibly in one of the rarely used blocks up near the away end, but i dont know the structural implications needed.

If you like standing and singing as i do, the most constructive thing to do would be to try and get a specially designated 'noisy' area for fans wanting to sing and stand throughout, it will happen long before any standing i fear.
I go to a few games at FC Twente in holland, they have a supporters club with a certain number of blocks allocated for over 18's for the purpose of creating an atmosphere, and its awesome!

[JonB]

Tibshelf Spireite, on 12 December 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

I think people have the wrong idea of this safe standing, its not free roam like the Kop used to be, everyone is allocated an area in which to stand, which takes away half the point of standing.

Yes i thought this was how it worked as well. You still get a ticket with an allocated place but it just happens you stand rather than sit as the seat is locked upright out of the way. I think they may however be able to put two people standing where one person would be seated though with how it works. If anything i could see it being more hard work in some areas that it is now as folk will try to stand together if they arent already anyway.

[Spireite S41]

anyone interested in signing the petition to have safe standing, here's thw official link

www.fsf.org.uk/petitions/view/support-safe-standing#sign

* Must C and P into search bar as my phones playing up...

This post has been edited by Spireite S41: 12 December 2012 - 12:40 PM

[kh83]

Spire1986, on 11 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Thats it though, I DONT enjoy it. I am forced to sit down surrounded by people who I dont know when my friends are scattered around the ground because they couldn't get anywhere near. I am rarely able to get a ticket at the back of the kop where those who do stand and sing are. If your half a block away from the centre back of the kop then your surrounded by silent, sitting fans for the majority of the match. I've heard all the C**p before "it doesn't stop you singing" etc, but it does. You look a right ******* trying to sing at the top of your voice on your own, or even in threes and fours.

If you just went around accepting everything then what sort of a mess would you end up in. I cant accept it, its had a massive detrimental impact upon my matchday experience. I also cant believe the selfish attitude others have towards standing at football matches, "I want to sit down therefore everyone else should sit down as well". I have seen people who have bought tickets for the rear of S3 and then kick off when people around are standing. How does it make sense for a couple of people to enter an area where they know people stand and then force a dozen people to sit down? I have seen this happen myself. Its incredibly selfish IMO when they have thousands of other seats to choose from.

Maybe it wasn't feasable at the time to create standing areas on the Moor, although Morcambe and others managed it, but to say nothing will change is very short sighted. Some big clubs are getting behind this and it can only steam-roll. Common sense has to prevail, those who want to sit can sit without being disturbed and those who want to stand can stand and create an atmosphere. It might not happen here but the option should be there for the future.

The clubs who have got behind this campaign deserve a pat on the back for listening to the fans, I hope parliament do the same.

Fully agree with all that!
Yes the atmosphere was good when we won the league but overall the atmosphere was better at Saltergate and one major factor in this was that we were stood.
In any club you have some supporters who want to just sit and watch the match in peace................fair enough.
Then you have some that want to watch the match but also sing and cheers their team on till they start losing their voice! I'm firmly in the second camp and for me the match day experience has gone down hill, that's not to say I don't appreciate the nice new bogs, the beer and TV's in the concourse and the fact that to move forward as a club it was essential to move to the new stadium. But having a standing in area on 1 side of the ground, the Kop!, would be great as it would accomadate both types of supporters and improve the prawn sandwhich atmosphere that has creeped in to our football club.

[JonB]

kh83, on 12 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Fully agree with all that!
Yes the atmosphere was good when we won the league but overall the atmosphere was better at Saltergate and one major factor in this was that we were stood.
In any club you have some supporters who want to just sit and watch the match in peace................fair enough.
Then you have some that want to watch the match but also sing and cheers their team on till they start losing their voice! I'm firmly in the second camp and for me the match day experience has gone down hill, that's not to say I don't appreciate the nice new bogs, the beer and TV's in the concourse and the fact that to move forward as a club it was essential to move to the new stadium. But having a standing in area on 1 side of the ground, the Kop!, would be great as it would accomadate both types of supporters and improve the prawn sandwhich atmosphere that has creeped in to our football club.

If we are honest with ourselves the main thing for a good atmosphere is the team doing well and in the new ground when we are doing well the atmosphere is great. There were plenty of times at Saltergate when it was dire and again it tended to be better there when we were doing well as well. I cant see how having a standing kop is suddenly going to make it so the place is jumping every week like some seem to think especially as safe standing isnt going to allow the big clumps of folk like used to happen which i think some folk are thinking is going to happen.

[kh83]

60s 70s Spireite, on 11 December 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

I see your profile says you are 20. Therefore I doubt whether you ave actually stood in a packed kop. Lifted your feet off the ground for 30 seconds and realised you have dropped 10 yards down the banking. Yes, it may have seen funny at the time, until you thought of those poor souls at Hillsborough, at Ibrox and Burnden Park, having no control of their destiny.
Yes, the ideas shown on the BBC website appear far safer than the old free standing. But that mens heavy investment for a lot of clubs, which is unaffordable.

Moreover the Hillsborough report doesn't just blame the Police, it also blames the Hillsborough ground. A similar thing had nearly happened in the late 50s.

The Hillsbrough tragedy is not relevent to this argument. There are many reason's that tragedy occured and I don't want to get into all that again. All I will say is how many hours, over about 150 years of Saltegate, have fans been stood on a terrace without serious incident, certainly not fatal! Add that to the millions of hours football supporters at all other clubs have stood and watched football without incident. Also, with hooliganism at minumum and safety at grounds now impecable, to say it wouldn't be safe to stand or refer to the 96 is riduculous.

[SpireiteFitzy]

JonB, on 12 December 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

If we are honest with ourselves the main thing for a good atmosphere is the team doing well and in the new ground when we are doing well the atmosphere is great. There were plenty of times at Saltergate when it was dire and again it tended to be better there when we were doing well as well. I cant see how having a standing kop is suddenly going to make it so the place is jumping every week like some seem to think especially as safe standing isnt going to allow the big clumps of folk like used to happen which i think some folk are thinking is going to happen.

It's not just about atmosphere though it's about inclusion of fans. It is really wonderful to see so many more women and families in our stadium that we didnt have before and it's all down to efforts to cater for their needs in a match environment. But in doing so it's forgotten about the fans who like to stand during games, who like to make lots of noise etc etc. I personally am stranded in the kop away from the singers cause it's hard to get near them and am surrounded by fans who don't seem to like noise. For the greater good the stadiums done I'm willing to accept that but it is a bit frustrating sometimes when you can't enjoy a football match the way you like to.

[JonB]

SpireiteFitzy, on 12 December 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

It's not just about atmosphere though it's about inclusion of fans. It is really wonderful to see so many more women and families in our stadium that we didnt have before and it's all down to efforts to cater for their needs in a match environment. But in doing so it's forgotten about the fans who like to stand during games, who like to make lots of noise etc etc. I personally am stranded in the kop away from the singers cause it's hard to get near them and am surrounded by fans who don't seem to like noise. For the greater good the stadiums done I'm willing to accept that but it is a bit frustrating sometimes when you can't enjoy a football match the way you like to.

Off the field the club has moved on leaps and bounds in terms of what we can offer and the type of folk turning up to watch games. Some folk were always going to miss standing, i do to an extent although i must admit to now liking sitting in the west or east stands, but i think some folk are getting caught up in thinking that this safe standing is going to see a return to the good old days of watching from the Kop when in reality its not going to be like that...you'll still buy a ticket, get allocated a spot but just stand in it rather than sit in it. Its not going to bring back big groups all huddled together. Yes some folk may opt to move to seated areas instead but you will still get a good number of folk on the Kop who arent interested in shouting and singing and still a chance you will end up surrounded by them.

[Search & Destroy]

I'm on the back row of the east stand and stand every game anyway unless the game is terminally dull.

[Search & Destroy]

JonB, on 12 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Off the field the club has moved on leaps and bounds in terms of what we can offer and the type of folk turning up to watch games. Some folk were always going to miss standing, i do to an extent although i must admit to now liking sitting in the west or east stands, but i think some folk are getting caught up in thinking that this safe standing is going to see a return to the good old days of watching from the Kop when in reality its not going to be like that...you'll still buy a ticket, get allocated a spot but just stand in it rather than sit in it. Its not going to bring back big groups all huddled together. Yes some folk may opt to move to seated areas instead but you will still get a good number of folk on the Kop who arent interested in shouting and singing and still a chance you will end up surrounded by them.

An allocated spot to stand in??? Can't see that working somehow.

[60s 70s Spireite]

kh83, on 12 December 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

The Hillsbrough tragedy is not relevent to this argument. There are many reason's that tragedy occured and I don't want to get into all that again. All I will say is how many hours, over about 150 years of Saltegate, have fans been stood on a terrace without serious incident, certainly not fatal! Add that to the millions of hours football supporters at all other clubs have stood and watched football without incident. Also, with hooliganism at minumum and safety at grounds now impecable, to say it wouldn't be safe to stand or refer to the 96 is riduculous.

Hillsborough is 100% relevant- it's exactly why we and the majority of clubs have all seater stadiums. (The Taylor's report's fundamental recommendation)

You imply there were very few serious incidents on packed terraces. A simple trawl of the internet shows otherwise.

Yes, modern ideas about an allocated slot to stand at would ensure much better safety than the old banked terraces, but posters on here don't appear to fancy that at all.

[trickytrevsfanclub]

60s 70s Spireite said:

1355299774[/url]' post='816031']
My sentiments entirely. But Tricky, preffered? Really? From you?

Doh!

[Spire1986]

60s 70s Spireite, on 12 December 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Hillsborough is 100% relevant- it's exactly why we and the majority of clubs have all seater stadiums. (The Taylor's report's fundamental recommendation)

You imply there were very few serious incidents on packed terraces. A simple trawl of the internet shows otherwise.

Yes, modern ideas about an allocated slot to stand at would ensure much better safety than the old banked terraces, but posters on here don't appear to fancy that at all.

You could argue that there are 43 reasons why seating is unsafe, (Ellis Stadium disaster). The Hillsbrough Disaster as an argument against standing never made sense, if you greatly exceed the capacity of a standing or seated area you end up with the same result. The terracing didn't kill people, far too many people in a small space did. The design of the new terracing at Saltergate from 2001 was a step forward, it reduced movement no end. This new design just appears to carry that on by reducing the spacings even more.

I cant even find "very few serious incidents". I cant find one where you can pin the blame on people being stood up.

[dim view]

Town_Fan, on 11 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

The concrete has to be super strong to cope with the lateral forces of leaning against a barrier, which isn't an issue if you have sod all underneath the stand apart from foundations. If however you want refreshment stands etc then safe standing becomes more expensive than seating, as is my understanding of the situation. My mortally challenged chum might be able to shed more light.

I much prefer to be seated and I can't see 'em re-designating an existing seated area for standing, but I suppose if ever the corners get filled in, they could be designed as standing areas.

[Heavy_Soul]

Search and Destroy, on 12 December 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

I'm on the back row of the east stand and stand every game anyway unless the game is terminally dull.

Where abouts mate? I may be very near you

[60s 70s Spireite]

Spire1986, on 12 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

You could argue that there are 43 reasons why seating is unsafe, (Ellis Stadium disaster). The Hillsbrough Disaster as an argument against standing never made sense, if you greatly exceed the capacity of a standing or seated area you end up with the same result. The terracing didn't kill people, far too many people in a small space did. The design of the new terracing at Saltergate from 2001 was a step forward, it reduced movement no end. This new design just appears to carry that on by reducing the spacings even more.

I cant even find "very few serious incidents". I cant find one where you can pin the blame on people being stood up.

i agree its too many people in one space that was the major problem, However its far easier to exceed capacity in a standing area than a seated area. On the whole people populate their designated seat, free standing allowed people to drift into one space, to stand next to their mates. You were born in in 1986 per your profile, again you are one who has not watched a match with both your feet off the floor.

The Ibrox disaster was caused by exiting fans returning after a late goal (the 1971 one, not the previous two there). If you could find any near misses, you have not looked very hard. Here is one at Hillsborough in1957 My link

[Spire1986]

60s 70s Spireite, on 12 December 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

i agree its too many people in one space that was the major problem, However its far easier to exceed capacity in a standing area than a seated area. On the whole people populate their designated seat, free standing allowed people to drift into one space, to stand next to their mates. You were born in in 1986 per your profile, again you are one who has not watched a match with both your feet off the floor.

The Ibrox disaster was caused by exiting fans returning after a late goal (the 1971 one, not the previous two there). If you could find any near misses, you have not looked very hard. Here is one at Hillsborough in1957 My link

I've been lifted before. Wrexham 97 and Mansfield 95, I know because it stuck in my mind, and yes I was only 9 and 11. This wouldn't have happened on the terracing at Saltergate post 2001 though would it? It was difficult to move forwards because of the bars that stretched the length of the kop. All that was needed was a fresh look and better crowd control strategies.

Ibrox '71 happened in a stairwell, not a terrace.
Hillsbrough '57 sounds as though it was too many people let in to the center pens again.

This post has been edited by Spire1986: 12 December 2012 - 07:55 PM

[chesterfield bhoy]

Imo seating is much more dangerous than safe standing. I'm sure many knees and shins have been damaged due to the seats in front.

[Bankrobber]

HU5 spire, on 11 December 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Hmm really? I remember night games at Saltergate, one v Bury sticks out with 3000 in the place was rocking. Bought a mate along for his first ever game, got the bug after that and still talks about the atmosphere and celebrations on the Kop when Fletcher scored..quality over quantity.

If that was the Friday night game...after a lovely warm day... i suspect the atmosphere was because most of the kop was leathered after watching Derbyshire in QP!

Seem to remember Jack scoring (for a change!) and Ben Algar playing...couldn't tell you much more though :-)