[Wooden Spoon]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

TBF, Randall played the shortish, perfect pass for Westcarr to score at Wembley. He's just been on the pitch a short time and bam! Killer ball, right there, job done. It's that kind of decisive quality that all teams require...

It was a lovely pass, but...........it was against a tiring side who were pushing forward - he was fresh, he had acres of time and space and lots of room behind to play the ball forward into.
It on a cold january tuesday night away at somewhere like Accrington, where they really pressure the midfield where he needs to do it - for 90 mins. Thats where he comes up short at the moment.

I`d like to see him carry the ball more, I`d like to see him cover the ground when we dont have the ball, I`d like to see him (to coin a JS) take care of the ball, ie, look to retain it as well as look for the killer ball. I`d like to him him, as HB says, not nesh out of headers etc.

If he adds that to his game he would be a very very good player.

He needs to switch from the arsenal acadamy style where there is not a lot of pressure on the ball and enphasis on passing to the realities of basement football or his career will be over before it has started

[JonB]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Have to say I just don't agree with you having watched Whittaker, Allott and Talbot last season. If you can't see that and that the Wembley pass is exactly what you can't take away from Randall - the talent that got him on to Arsenal's books - then...well fine, whatever, I'm not going to play the insult swapping game.

Arsenal will get through loads of players like Randall who they take on on the chance they make it only to get released...remember Alex Bailey and Jordan Fowler was it (he was that memorable!!). I'm not denying that he is decent on the ball and capable of making a pass but i'm not taking that one pass which wasnt that hard as the evidence he has to play for us every week and he needs to start showing a lot more than he has on a consistent basis so far. Impressing in a kick about at a training ground down the road isnt enough either. I would like him to succeed but he hasnt been doing and i can fully understand why the manager(s) dont pick him on a consistent basis.

[boot]

Goku, on 17 September 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

In all honesty, a Derby reserve player's opinion doesn't hold any more weight than Joe Bloggs off the CFC messageboard.

I know what the obvious reply is - 'he's a footballer, he plays the game at a higher level than Joe Bloggs ever did so he must know his onions' etc. but then you just have to look at all the ex-players who've failed in management to see that that ain't true.

And just the type of game you might expect Randall to do well in anyway - half paced, no hard knocks and not the do or die input needed in a proper competitive game. In fact just the sort of reasons Atkinson is here to get'battle hardened' ( Lambert's description of Bowery's League experience ) - a tippy tappy training game or even reserve team football isn't the same.I would be interested in Radders definition of 'putting a shift in', which he states Randall does, because it obviously means something different to me than it does him. Good technically is not the same as being a good player.

[Goku]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

If you think you or I can judge Randall as well as someone who plays the game at Championship level and has played against him, then I just have to say I completely and utterly disagree with you.

He's played against him once, I've watched him in pretty much every first team game he's played for Chesterfield as well as the odd reserve game. Players can play well in one game and then have another ten bad games. I don't think he's lazy.. but he doesn't make a big enough impact on the games he plays in. Can somebody give me a list of games where Randall has played and made a telling contribution? I remember Notts County away in the JPT against their stiffs, he did okay at Sheff Wed away... he did well against Derby County's stiffs when we beat them 3-1 in the friendly.. did well in the three man midfield against Wycombe when we beat them last season at home.. any more? I'm sure I've missed a few but yeah, not really any evidence to say he's got the application to do well for us.

I was looking forward to seeing Randall play this season after he did well against Derby in the friendly, truth be told, but at the same time I expressed concern over whether he'd be able to perform at that level against a competitive midfield on even a semi-consistent basis. The game at Wimbledon showed me that my concerns were indeed valid - did you go to that game? It was downright embarrassing, almost every pass he made was a long, aimless one which ended up out of play and he rounded off a fantastically sh*te performance with nothing short of cowardice when he ducked out of a tackle and a header. The minimum I expect when travelling to watch Chesterfield is that the players compete and he failed to do so.

To end my post, I'd like to say that reserve football is rarely played at the same pace with the same competitive nature as League 2 football. In fact, I'd go as far as to say it never is. I'm not sure how much reserve football you've watched but I'm sure other posters will agree with me when I say this.

[Doughnut]

JonB, on 17 September 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

For what its worth about said pass i would have been disappointed if he'd buggered it up..he had plenty of time and half of Wembley to pass it into!! If we are using that as the basis for how great he is and how he should be playing every week then we are struggling!!

My opinion for whats its worth is yes he has ability but on its own its not enough and in the main he has struggled to have an impact on games on a regular basis. Yes there may be the odd pass here and there but is that enough to warrant changing the shape of the side just to accommodate him? I'm not sure it is!!

Yes, but for the occasional game; not as the 'norm', unless we think 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 is the way forward. I do believe playing Randall means we can't play 4-4-2 as it places too much of a burden on the other central midfielder to do the majority of the hard work.

[Goku]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I'm not going to play the insult swapping game.

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

I thought my post might get a daft reply like that.

Hmm, okay then.

[GB1984]

JonB, on 17 September 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Arsenal will get through loads of players like Randall who they take on on the chance they make it only to get released...remember Alex Bailey and Jordan Fowler was it (he was that memorable!!). I'm not denying that he is decent on the ball and capable of making a pass but i'm not taking that one pass which wasnt that hard as the evidence he has to play for us every week and he needs to start showing a lot more than he has on a consistent basis so far. Impressing in a kick about at a training ground down the road isnt enough either. I would like him to succeed but he hasnt been doing and i can fully understand why the manager(s) dont pick him on a consistent basis.

I agree with you about most of his weaknesses and Nec's too; but I do want to go back to that pass: it wasn't simple, he didn't have as much time as you say, and for me, the people keeping him out of the team at the time with the poss exception of Franck weren't making those sort of passes last season and not this.

I'd say too that if you think there isn't room for his sort of skill in L1/2 then you weren't watching the oppo closely enough last season. I was shocked by the high standard of League 1, and virtually every team was playing modern pass and move football. We got beached, JS got beached, by the British game moving forward. Torquay came and made us look poor, if you remember.

Goku, on 17 September 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Hmm, okay then.

I know what you mean. But you needed something in response to your aggressive post, which said, basically, "you're a numpty."

[Goku]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

I know what you mean. But you needed something in response to your aggressive post, which said, basically, "you're a numpty."

Really? My post was aggressive? It wasn't meant like that at all:

Goku, on 17 September 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

In all honesty, a Derby reserve player's opinion doesn't hold any more weight than Joe Bloggs off the CFC messageboard.

I know what the obvious reply is - 'he's a footballer, he plays the game at a higher level than Joe Bloggs ever did so he must know his onions' etc. but then you just have to look at all the ex-players who've failed in management to see that that ain't true.

?

[Radders]

necronomicon ex mortis, on 17 September 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Bonnyman would still cover the ground, and when he had the ball he used very wisely, either the simple ball the lovely weighted pass or the killer one that went to Ernie/Birchy.

Randall - well he has the ability in his passing, but I still maintain he does not cover the ground, you dont have to tackle to cover your area of responsibilty and pressurising the man with the ball is something he in particular, and the midfield as a whole have not done enough of. He also needs to learn that not every ball needs to be a 40 yard defence splitting pass.

I agree that most here recognise the lad has ability, and would like to see him do his stuff in a successfull side.....but can we afford to carry him in a 5 man midfield to accomodate his passing?

Then there is the RPL factor.......everyone saw last season the loss of form DW suffered. I personally wouldnt have re signed him, certainly not to play on the left. However the man deserves a large pat on the back for his application and performances this season, and when played behind the front 2 you see just what he brings to the side. RPL refuses to acknowledge this however - simply regurgataing the get rid of Allott + Whits (and Lester to a lesser degree) while saying Randall should have the side built around him. This totally ignores the performances of each player this season, so tends to polarise views on this message board.

It sums the situation up when Whittaker has been head and shoulders the better player, and Randall is kept on the bench by a 36yr old Mark Allott.

I agree, he does need to pressure the ball more - and as you also pointed out the whole of the midfield are guilty of that, that's why we concede so many goals and for me midfield has been a problem area ever since Sheridan took over. When we won the league the other season it wasn't the defence that was overly poor - it was the pressure allowed on to it by the midfield. I also agree about Whitts - he looked awful last season and yet this season has played well, I'm not in the business of knocking players just for the sake of it. if a player plays well I'll say well done - if they have a stinker, I'll say that too.
Allott is what he is - he came as a striker, he's been turned into a midfielder, he has a nice first touch and will put his foot in. However he slows play down because he can't drive a midfield forward. As for getting rid of Lester - that's just fools talk

This post has been edited by Radders: 17 September 2012 - 11:35 AM

[GB1984]

Goku, on 17 September 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Can somebody give me a list of games where Randall has played and made a telling contribution? I remember Notts County away in the JPT against their stiffs, he did okay at Sheff Wed away... he did well against Derby County's stiffs when we beat them 3-1 in the friendly.. did well in the three man midfield against Wycombe when we beat them last season at home..

Look, I'm not trying to be smart, but you've built up almost a decent body of evidence to put a hole in your own argument.

I agree, there's a huge doubt about Randall in terms of commitment, effort, etc. And no, I can't afford away travel (nor MMC games at home), so didn't see him at Wimbledon. I'd just like to see Randall get a run of say 6 games as first pick in the side to give him a fair chance to show what he can give us. And if it doesn't work we can loan him out or get rid of him in the Jan window and move on. And before someone says, "six games we might lose...", I would say that on Satdee the midfield were given the run around in the second half when they came at us through the middle, so Randall cd hardly do much worse in defensive terms. I found THAT almost embarrassing. And if he's having a stinker he can be subbed.

My guess is that we ain't going to go up this season with this first team and my suggestion was that we might try 4-5-1/4-3-3 with some pace out wide and a midfield inner 3 that has the creative Randall in it. I still submit that no one else can pass the ball remotely as well as him. To any dissenters, I'd say, you're being way too tough on him.

[Yenx]

Radders, on 17 September 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

... and for me midfield has been a problem area ever since Sheridan took over....

Hard to believe he was such a highly regarded midfielder himself

[shaun1866]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Look, I'm not trying to be smart, but you've built up almost a decent body of evidence to put a hole in your own argument.

I agree, there's a huge doubt about Randall in terms of commitment, effort, etc. And no, I can't afford away travel (nor MMC games at home), so didn't see him at Wimbledon. I'd just like to see Randall get a run of say 6 games as first pick in the side to give him a fair chance to show what he can give us.

GB I see where your coming from and im sure SB does to, but the fact of the matter is he was looking at a long spell in the side but after the 1st 2 appearences it was evident that he didnt deserve any further starts, he didnt apply himself and push himself to make the position his own and that for me says it all.

[Radders]

boot, on 17 September 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

And just the type of game you might expect Randall to do well in anyway - half paced, no hard knocks and not the do or die input needed in a proper competitive game. In fact just the sort of reasons Atkinson is here to get'battle hardened' ( Lambert's description of Bowery's League experience ) - a tippy tappy training game or even reserve team football isn't the same.I would be interested in Radders definition of 'putting a shift in', which he states Randall does, because it obviously means something different to me than it does him. Good technically is not the same as being a good player.

What I actually said was - "He does put a challenge in. Ok he may not be a muscle bound freak, but that doesn't mean he can't put a shift in."
That was said in response to the people who were saying he was too lightweight to contribute. There is a difference in what I wrote to what you suggested it meant

[Radders]

Yenx, on 17 September 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Hard to believe he was such a highly regarded midfielder himself

I know - bonkers!

[Goku]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Look, I'm not trying to be smart, but you've built up almost a decent body of evidence to put a hole in your own argument.

I agree, there's a huge doubt about Randall in terms of commitment, effort, etc. And no, I can't afford away travel (nor MMC games at home), so didn't see him at Wimbledon. I'd just like to see Randall get a run of say 6 games as first pick in the side to give him a fair chance to show what he can give us. And if it doesn't work we can loan him out or get rid of him in the Jan window and move on. And before someone says, "six games we might lose...", I would say that on Satdee the midfield were given the run around in the second half when they came at us through the middle, so Randall cd hardly do much worse in defensive terms. I found THAT almost embarrassing. And if he's having a stinker he can be subbed.

My guess is that we ain't going to go up this season with this first team and my suggestion was that we might try 4-5-1/4-3-3 with some pace out wide and a midfield inner 3 that has the creative Randall in it. I still submit that no one else can pass the ball remotely as well as him. To any dissenters, I'd say, you're being way too tough on him.

Why's that? I listed four games against County reserves, Derby County reserves, a game which we lost 3-1 and a game which we won 4-0 (or was it 4-1?). Hardly the best portfolio is it? Mate, I saw Wade Small play well in more than four games.

Re. rest of your post, fair enough, each to their own.

This post has been edited by Goku: 17 September 2012 - 11:50 AM

[Wooden Spoon]

GB1984, on 17 September 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Look, I'm not trying to be smart, but you've built up almost a decent body of evidence to put a hole in your own argument.

I agree, there's a huge doubt about Randall in terms of commitment, effort, etc. And no, I can't afford away travel (nor MMC games at home), so didn't see him at Wimbledon. I'd just like to see Randall get a run of say 6 games as first pick in the side to give him a fair chance to show what he can give us. And if it doesn't work we can loan him out or get rid of him in the Jan window and move on. And before someone says, "six games we might lose...", I would say that on Satdee the midfield were given the run around in the second half when they came at us through the middle, so Randall cd hardly do much worse in defensive terms. I found THAT almost embarrassing. And if he's having a stinker he can be subbed.

My guess is that we ain't going to go up this season with this first team and my suggestion was that we might try 4-5-1/4-3-3 with some pace out wide and a midfield inner 3 that has the creative Randall in it. I still submit that no one else can pass the ball remotely as well as him. To any dissenters, I'd say, you're being way too tough on him.

But thats it - he doesnt do any more than that - its not enough in L2 = I think we would all like to see him push on and become our CM lynchpin, but HB(GOKU) sums it up pretty well. Sort that out and he would be one hell of a player at this level.

[boot]

Radders, on 17 September 2012 - 11:43 AM, said:

What I actually said was - "He does put a challenge in. Ok he may not be a muscle bound freak, but that doesn't mean he can't put a shift in."
That was said in response to the people who were saying he was too lightweight to contribute. There is a difference in what I wrote to what you suggested it meant

Your inference then is that he can put a shift in - I have not seen the evidence to support that.

[Bankrobber]

GB1984, on 16 September 2012 - 10:42 PM, said:

The smart anus act is just a response to you being so bl**dy nasty to RPL42Years. Three sneering posts that just destroy a lot of people's idea of a good message board: one where people talk about football or music or whatever in an enjoyable way without brutal, contemptuous insults being thrown about left and right. And if the fighting was fair it wouldn't be quite so bad, but there's ganging up going on and it's really, seriously unpleasant to look at. If you want to slag someone off, why you start on Gary Megson or Chris Kamara, or Alan Shearer: then we can all join in.

New? New handle, maybe...

You make some good points. Especially about Randall being best equipped to play in a midfield 5 (my position as well). You also read a bit of David Peace, judging by your username.

However, i think the promise shown by Atkinson on Saturday means we're unlikely to be seeing MR anytime soon.

[Wooden Spoon]

Radders, on 17 September 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

I agree, he does need to pressure the ball more - and as you also pointed out the whole of the midfield are guilty of that, that's why we concede so many goals and for me midfield has been a problem area ever since Sheridan took over. When we won the league the other season it wasn't the defence that was overly poor - it was the pressure allowed on to it by the midfield. I also agree about Whitts - he looked awful last season and yet this season has played well, I'm not in the business of knocking players just for the sake of it. if a player plays well I'll say well done - if they have a stinker, I'll say that too.
Allott is what he is - he came as a striker, he's been turned into a midfielder, he has a nice first touch and will put his foot in. However he slows play down because he can't drive a midfield forward. As for getting rid of Lester - that's just fools talk

The midfield is an issue - Allott needs runners off him out wide to be more usefull, you cant really drive the game forward if everyone is stood still - in a way this is the same with Randall - if Randall put his foot in as much as Allott does he would be one of the first names on the team sheet.

It speaks volumes that a 36 yr old MA puts more graft in that a bloke in his early 20`s - and that for me is the main issue.

[Yenx]

Seems he's another player that polarises the fans
Who needs Morgan?