[firedodger]

MDCCCLXVI, on 12 September 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

The point is, 'FD', that when you open the gates to a large crowd outside a stadium trying to get in everyone knows what's gonna happen next.

Including SY Police.

Mate I couldn't agree more, I'm sure you and I have both been in crushes outside grounds and we both know they are not nice places to be.
But as the other bloke said you've got people being crushed against the gates outside, something has to be done to alleviate that, I would hate to be the person who has to make that particular judgement call because there must have been chaos there at that particular time.
On the day people did what they hoped and thought was right, with tragic consequences.
No one person was the cause of the deaths, authorities, politicians and fans alike are all partially to blame

[Tylerdurdencfc]

mr. smith, on 12 September 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

if the authorities had done nothing wrong why was there a cover up?

I never said the authorities didn't do anything wrong, I include them in all the variables to blame....

Anyone not wanting to believe Liverpool fans didn't do anything wrong should watch this video 15mins onwards people clambering in the ground over walls and the Liverpool fans comments up to the BBC cameras during the tragedy about not having tickets for the game....

Please Don't watch this if your easily distressed...

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[jonnythespireite]

firedodger, on 12 September 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Mate I couldn't agree more, I'm sure you and I have both been in crushes outside grounds and we both know they are not nice places to be.
But as the other bloke said you've got people being crushed against the gates outside, something has to be done to alleviate that, I would hate to be the person who has to make that particular judgement call because there must have been chaos there at that particular time.
On the day people did what they hoped and thought was right, with tragic consequences.
No one person was the cause of the deaths, authorities, politicians and fans alike are all partially to blame

It shouldn't have got to the point where there was crushing near the turnstiles though should it? Proper policing of this area would have stopped this and spread supporters farther afield. There is the point. They were incompetent, knew it and covered it up.

This post has been edited by jonnythespireite: 12 September 2012 - 05:44 PM

[mr. smith]

Tylerdurdencfc, on 12 September 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

I never said the authorities didn't do anything wrong, I include them in all the variables to blame....

Anyone not wanting to believe Liverpool fans didn't do anything wrong should watch this video 15mins onwards people clambering in the ground over walls and the Liverpool fans comments up to the BBC cameras during the tragedy about not having tickets for the game....

Please Don't watch this if your easily distressed...

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

1 drunk/ticketless fan or 1001 should make the police job more difficult, not result in 96 deaths.

[Tylerdurdencfc]

jonnythespireite, on 12 September 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

It shouldn't have got to the point where there was crushing near the turnstiles though should it? Proper policing of this area would have stopped this and spread supporters farther afield. There is the point. They were incompetent, knew it and covered it up.

Its easy to say in hindsight, yes it should have been done, no it wasn't, fans should have got there earlier rather than wait until the pubs shut, the safety certificate should have been in place, should the gate have been opened or not? decisions made in split seconds, fans going in without tickets, fans clambering over the walls, the centre tunnels should have been closed (probably the thought didn't even cross the polices mind due to the ongoing problems to relieve the crushing outside). Why were the ambulances delayed? Lack of modern day technology, the cover up, the inquest it goes on and on...

NO ONE THING/PERSON is to blame, its everything added together and created the perfect storm as someone said in another thread....

It had be brewing for ages in the years beforehand since 1981 and it could have been any team and any fan at anytime in the meantime...

[firedodger]

jonnythespireite, on 12 September 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

It shouldn't have got to the point where there was crushing near the turnstiles though should it? Proper policing of this area would have stopped this and spread supporters farther afield. There is the point. They were incompetent, knew it and covered it up.

No it shouldn't, a hell of a lot of people were at those entrances very close to kick off I don't think that's all the polices fault personally, nobody should have gone near the game without a ticket but they did.
I've worked in the emergency services for 27 years and I've seen things go badly wrong that we thought we had all planned out, and that's what happened on the day.
Plans and policies etc are all very good on paper but the real world doesn't happen on paper, that's why things like hillsborough happen. The police tried to do the best they could on the day in very difficult and challenging circumstances, nobody wanted anyone to die or get injured.
What has happened since with statements and cover ups is inexcusable, but on the day some of the authorities and some of the supporters were to blame

[jonnythespireite]

Tylerdurdencfc, on 12 September 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Its easy to say in hindsight, yes it should have been done, no it wasn't, fans should have got there earlier rather than wait until the pubs shut, the safety certificate should have been in place, should the gate have been opened or not? decisions made in split seconds, fans going in without tickets, fans clambering over the walls, the centre tunnels should have been closed (probably the thought didn't even cross the polices mind due to the ongoing problems to relieve the crushing outside). Why were the ambulances delayed? Lack of modern day technology, the cover up, the inquest it goes on and on...

NO ONE THING/PERSON is to blame, its everything added together and created the perfect storm as someone said in another thread....

It had be brewing for ages in the years beforehand since 1981 and it could have been any team and any fan at anytime in the meantime...

You miss the point though. I agree with most of what you say but the TRUTH is that the police have FALSIFIED their officers accounts of events to deflect any form of blame from themselves. Why would they do that unless they were worried? What they've done is illegal and the outcome of the inquests into the deaths would almost certainly have been different. Put yourselves in the shoes of the parents of the dead ... On the evidence of today would you be comfortable with a verdict of accidental death? I know I wouldn't. It's not all about what happened, we know that. It'swhat was kept back and not brought into the public domain from day one.

[jonnythespireite]

firedodger, on 12 September 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

No it shouldn't, a hell of a lot of people were at those entrances very close to kick off I don't think that's all the polices fault personally, nobody should have gone near the game without a ticket but they did.
I've worked in the emergency services for 27 years and I've seen things go badly wrong that we thought we had all planned out, and that's what happened on the day.
Plans and policies etc are all very good on paper but the real world doesn't happen on paper, that's why things like hillsborough happen. The police tried to do the best they could on the day in very difficult and challenging circumstances, nobody wanted anyone to die or get injured.
What has happened since with statements and cover ups is inexcusable, but on the day some of the authorities and some of the supporters were to blame

Noted and I accept your comments as someone who does the job. However. If SYP felt this was an accident and a combination of events with a terrible outcome then why have they falsified / withheld evidence?? Is it because they knew that 'doing there best' was nowhere near the required professional standard?

[Tylerdurdencfc]

mr. smith, on 12 September 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

1 drunk/ticketless fan or 1001 should make the police job more difficult, not result in 96 deaths.

And those fans are therefore part of the reason why the deaths occurred as they shouldn't have been in the ground without tickets and are proportionally to blame.

If say 1001 fans without tickets hadn't been there then that would have meant 1001 people less outside therefore not as bad a crush and as a result the gate may never have had to have been opened in the first place...therefore that split decision from police officer in charge wouldn't have happened and maybe no-one would have died....

However we will never know the exact truth...

Everyone will have differing opinions

My opinion is numerous people were to blame,

The FA for selecting the venue without proper safety checks
The stadium officer and Sheffield Wednesday for knowingly not having a safety certificate
Those fans that entered without tickets and entered over the walls
The police for opening the gate
The police for not closing the central pens before opening the gate
The people who decided to put the officer in charge without any experience of this level
The lack of technology
The lack of supervision
Why didn't the fans at the back once they knew what was going on leave the via the tunnels?
The lack of ambulances
And so on


What is totally wrong is the altered evidence after and all the findings....

Conclusion no-one person or section is to blame all the variables added up to an unfortunate disaster that had been waiting to happen

[firedodger]

jonnythespireite, on 12 September 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

You miss the point though. I agree with most of what you say but the TRUTH is that the police have FALSIFIED their officers accounts of events to deflect any form of blame from themselves. Why would they do that unless they were worried? What they've done is illegal and the outcome of the inquests into the deaths would almost certainly have been different. Put yourselves in the shoes of the parents
of the dead ... On the evidence of today would you be comfortable with a verdict of accidental death? I know I wouldn't. It's not all about what happened, we know that. It'swhat was kept back and not brought into the public domain from day one.

I agree and the difference is the police are a public body and the facility is there to now hold them accountable for their actions and rightly so. Sadly Liverpool fans who went without tickets, maybe had a few too many and stayed in the pub til close to kick off, maybe ignored pleas or advice, maybe were pushing to get in, they are not a public body and will never be accountable for their part in the tragedy

[jonnythespireite]

firedodger, on 12 September 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

I agree and the difference is the police are a public body and the facility is there to now hold them accountable for their actions and rightly so. Sadly Liverpool fans who went without tickets, maybe had a few too many and stayed in the pub til close to kick off, maybe ignored pleas or advice, maybe were pushing to get in, they are not a public body and will never be accountable for their part in the tragedy

Policing has moved on since then fortunately. If a cordon was in place they wouldn't have got near would they. It was a monumental fooooook up wasn't it? Turning up late and without a ticket isn't a crime. Silly and misguided yes, but that's what the security forces are there for , to perhaps save people from themselves sometimes. That's their job to provide a safe environment. It'swhat they sign up to do.

[HistoricWarwick]

bonnyman, on 12 September 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

its not a question of morals though is it? surely the only thing that matters is the deaths,it was a chain of events that quiet simply does not reach its fateful conclusion if the gates were not opened.as soon as they were preventable death became unpreventable death.

Bonnyman, I know what you are saying but my point is that I still firmly believe that no one party is responsible for what happened. Today's events should be about outing wrong doing in terms of falsifying evidence and sticking it to Kelvin McKenzie or what hos mob did which was morbidly offensive. Whereas what I read and reaction makes it sound like it was all the police's fault from start to finish thus exonorating all other parties from the FA to opportunist fans with no tickets. The comment from the Liverpool MP saying that it was Unequivocal truth that Liverpool fans were not the cause and drink was not a significant factor - I think that is a step too far unless there were no fans in that or outside the ground without tickets.

As you say what matters is there were deaths and what has happened since that day hopefully means it won't happen again.

[HistoricWarwick]

Bobby Darling, on 12 September 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

So even after today's evidence people like you still trot out the same old stories. Unbelievable. I put you in the same category as the South Yorkshire police. It is over. The truth is out.

What story am I trotting out?

[Tylerdurdencfc]

jonnythespireite, on 12 September 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Policing has moved on since then fortunately. If a cordon was in place they wouldn't have got near would they. It was a monumental fooooook up wasn't it? Turning up late and without a ticket isn't a crime. Silly and misguided yes, but that's what the security forces are there for , to perhaps save people from themselves sometimes. That's their job to provide a safe environment. It'swhat they sign up to do.

But entering a match without a ticket over walls etc is a crime....therefore they are proportionally to blame as well....

I cannot understand the life of me this report saying that No Liverpool fans were to blame at all....that is the political correct hogwash we have to put up with society nowadays, its been stated that they weren't to blame because thats what the public of Liverpool want to hear and thats not the truth, evidence clearly backs it up they were proportionally to blame.

By the way just because this report has come out doesn't mean its correct, just like the originally report wasn't correct....not everyone has been interviewed for this report.


What is disgusting is the falsifying of evidence to try and get away from their portion of the blame by the police and that is the most disgusting thing that the report highlights....

[jonnythespireite]

Tylerdurdencfc, on 12 September 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

But entering a match without a ticket over walls etc is a crime....therefore they are proportionally to blame as well....

I cannot understand the life of me this report saying that No Liverpool fans were to blame at all....that is the political correct hogwash we have to put up with society nowadays, its been stated that they weren't to blame because thats what the public of Liverpool want to hear and thats not the truth, evidence clearly backs it up they were proportionally to blame.

By the way just because this report has come out doesn't mean its correct, just like the originally report wasn't correct....not everyone has been interviewed for this report.


What is disgusting is the falsifying of evidence to try and get away from their portion of the blame by the police and that is the most disgusting thing that the report highlights....

You continually miss the point. You've regurgitated the same message in about three posts now. Never mind.

[newboldsteve]

Tylerdurdencfc, on 12 September 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

But entering a match without a ticket over walls etc is a crime....therefore they are proportionally to blame as well....

I cannot understand the life of me this report saying that No Liverpool fans were to blame at all....that is the political correct hogwash we have to put up with society nowadays, its been stated that they weren't to blame because thats what the public of Liverpool want to hear and thats not the truth, evidence clearly backs it up they were proportionally to blame.

By the way just because this report has come out doesn't mean its correct, just like the originally report wasn't correct....not everyone has been interviewed for this report.


What is disgusting is the falsifying of evidence to try and get away from their portion of the blame by the police and that is the most disgusting thing that the report highlights....

you really must be a copper because there is no reason to think like you do. the original report didnt have all the facts and figures these people who did this report did have so it will be correct .all game liike this will have its shair of supporters turn up with out tickets hoping to buy one off a ticket tout if it had been policed properly it would not have happened full stop i went to hillsburogh last season and the ques were daft for 3k and its been inproved since the incedent so trying to get 15 to 20k in there in 89 would have been mental

[jonnythespireite]

newboldsteve, on 12 September 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

you really must be a copper because there is no reason to think like you do. the original report didnt have all the facts and figures these people who did this report did have so it will be correct .all game liike this will have its shair of supporters turn up with out tickets hoping to buy one off a ticket tout if it had been policed properly it would not have happened full stop i went to hillsburogh last season and the ques were daft for 3k and its been inproved since the incedent so trying to get 15 to 20k in there in 89 would have been mental

He certainly has an agenda doesn't he?

[Guest_freelander2_*]

Sadly today confirmed what many had suspected.

I'm afraid most forces at that time were made up of officers who were recruited on the basis that they had two arms & two legs, most wouldn't get near the uniform now.

A sad day, but a very important one for the families involved, we should all praise them & wish them luck in their pursuit of justice & accountability.

[firedodger]

jonnythespireite, on 12 September 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Noted and I accept your comments as someone who does the job. However. If SYP felt this was an accident and a combination of events with a terrible outcome then why have they falsified / withheld evidence?? Is it because they knew that 'doing there best' was nowhere near the required professional standard?

Mate my opinion is that they knew with hindsight they got the call with the gates wrong, they also knew the inevitable sh*t storm that would follow, which meant one/two/dozens/hundreds of their numbers would be dragged through professional standards hearings their names dragged through the press, careers ended, hate campaigns and all the inevitable personal consequences, so they doctored statements in an attempt to deflect more blame onto somebody who could never be prosecuted, 'the fans'. I think they did it because they thought they could get away with it. Stupid and I bet you anything you like they regret it now.
I can't imagine it was done lightly, there will be some very
scared and nervous people out there now.

[jonnythespireite]

firedodger, on 12 September 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Mate my opinion is that they knew with hindsight they got the call with the gates wrong, they also knew the inevitable sh*t storm that would follow, which meant one/two/dozens/hundreds of their numbers would be dragged through professional standards hearings their names dragged through the press, careers ended, hate campaigns and all the inevitable personal consequences, so they doctored statements in an attempt to deflect more blame onto somebody who could never be prosecuted, 'the fans'. I think they did it because they thought they could get away with it. Stupid and I bet you anything you like they regret it now.
I can't imagine it was done lightly, there will be some very
scared and nervous people out there now.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head I reckon there mate. But if in your job, or life, if you go outside accepted boundaries - like they have done here- then you must be prepared to take the consequences of your actions.