[Bonnyman]

HistoricWarwick, on 12 September 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

We all know so many things could and should have been addressed that would have saved lives. Should the police and emergency services have acted differently, yes, should they have blamed supporters, absolutely not as this is unforgiveable. Should the game been at Hillsborough, probably not, should Liverpool been given the kop end probably and so it goes on.

But to suggest that as it is perfectly acceptable to turn up late for a game drunk without a ticket (or any combination of these) and this admonishes you of all responsibility because it is the police's fault if they let you in, is in my eyes morally wrong.

Today's news focusses attention on the authorities for trying to blame others - which again is wrong and right that it has been highlighted. However it doesn't resolve that there were far more factors that led to what happened. For instance I will quote this as it is the only aspect I saw with my own eyes are the 3-4 coaches of Liverpool supporters (I know because they had Knowsley written on the rear) still in The Peacock at Owler Bar 40 mins before kick off. Why do I remember that whilst I was driving through Barlow? Because I thought it was stupid at the time that fans could leave it that late without missing the game.

Is it the authorities fault that fans such as these were leaving it late? Should they be responsible for managing traffic this far out of Sheffield?

I never will accept that it was one groups fault for what happened that day and yet the angle in today's coverage intimates it is.

We will all live to be old remembering that horrific day and in the eyes of some justice is done, to some it never will be but, my interpretation of today is that it was ALL down to the authorities - I will never accept that. If it teaches us one thing, it should be that we are all responsible for our actions and sadly sections of society don't see it like that.

its not a question of morals though is it? surely the only thing that matters is the deaths,it was a chain of events that quiet simply does not reach its fateful conclusion if the gates were not opened.as soon as they were preventable death became unpreventable death.

[born in 1866]

164 statements were "significantly amended" and 116 "removed negative comments" about policing operation.

Exactly what we had to put up with in '84/'85

Police fabrications and LIES to protect THEIR incompetence and over zealous behaviour

[Misnomer]

born in 1866, on 12 September 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

164 statements were "significantly amended" and 116 "removed negative comments" about policing operation.

Exactly what we had to put up with in '84/'85

Police fabrications and LIES to protect THEIR incompetence and over zealous behaviour

I'll go with that all the way; an utter disgrace in every sense!

[satnav]

I do wonder if the main reason Thatcher was happy to sanction the cover up was because she felt she owed South Yorkshire police a favour for the assistance they gave her during the miners strike a couple of years earlier.

[jr1cfc]

Tips McGee, on 12 September 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Of the 96 that died 41 might have survived ffs

The report finds 164 statements were "significantly amended" and 116 "removed negative comments" about policing operation.

The panel finds that a total of 41 people out of 96 "had the potential to be saved" beyond the 1515 time determined by the original inquest

What if we had had our cup run earlier? This could have been any fan from any club.

The lawyer for the families said that Sheffield Wednesday have some serious questions to answer one being that that this could have happened anytime between 1981 and 1988 cos they didn't have the relevant safety certificates and they knew it

[moondog]

jr1cfc, on 12 September 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

The lawyer for the families said that Sheffield Wednesday have some serious questions to answer one being that that this could have happened anytime between 1981 and 1988 cos they didn't have the relevant safety certificates and they knew it

the report states SWFC's primary concern was saving costs and of a poor relationship with SYP, it is damning of the club in many other respects too

[Waller is my hero]

born in 1866, on 12 September 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

164 statements were "significantly amended" and 116 "removed negative comments" about policing operation.

Exactly what we had to put up with in '84/'85

Police fabrications and LIES to protect THEIR incompetence and over zealous behaviour

Disgraceful

[Bobby Darling]

HistoricWarwick, on 12 September 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

We all know so many things could and should have been addressed that would have saved lives. Should the police and emergency services have acted differently, yes, should they have blamed supporters, absolutely not as this is unforgiveable. Should the game been at Hillsborough, probably not, should Liverpool been given the kop end probably and so it goes on.

But to suggest that as it is perfectly acceptable to turn up late for a game drunk without a ticket (or any combination of these) and this admonishes you of all responsibility because it is the police's fault if they let you in, is in my eyes morally wrong.

Today's news focusses attention on the authorities for trying to blame others - which again is wrong and right that it has been highlighted. However it doesn't resolve that there were far more factors that led to what happened. For instance I will quote this as it is the only aspect I saw with my own eyes are the 3-4 coaches of Liverpool supporters (I know because they had Knowsley written on the rear) still in The Peacock at Owler Bar 40 mins before kick off. Why do I remember that whilst I was driving through Barlow? Because I thought it was stupid at the time that fans could leave it that late without missing the game.

Is it the authorities fault that fans such as these were leaving it late? Should they be responsible for managing traffic this far out of Sheffield?

I never will accept that it was one groups fault for what happened that day and yet the angle in today's coverage intimates it is.

We will all live to be old remembering that horrific day and in the eyes of some justice is done, to some it never will be but, my interpretation of today is that it was ALL down to the authorities - I will never accept that. If it teaches us one thing, it should be that we are all responsible for our actions and sadly sections of society don't see it like that.

So even after today's evidence people like you still trot out the same old stories. Unbelievable. I put you in the same category as the South Yorkshire police. It is over. The truth is out.

[philly8mt]

Hoare (400), on 12 September 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

The tories wanted it covering up then an still wanted it covering up until now! David Cameron n Nick Cleggs coalition have done their damndest to keep these secrets buried, taking it through the courts on numerous occasions to stop it been made public! They should hang their heads in shame, and do the honourable an resign, and call a general election! It stinks, an it wont matter how much they apolagise it will always stink! Every leader from Thatcher onwards who has sat on this is a disgrace!



Hoare (400)

Its a disgrace it was covered up. ... Agreed
But Cameron should resign? Behave man! Did Blair or Brown do anything? No. .. Red or blue (in a political sense) all sat on this and it does none of em any credit whatsoever.

[Hoare (400)]

philly8mt, on 12 September 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Its a disgrace it was covered up. ... Agreed
But Cameron should resign? Behave man! Did Blair or Brown do anything? No. .. Red or blue (in a political sense) all sat on this and it does none of em any credit whatsoever.

He is the leader of the country, he has numerous times this year gone to court an had blocked what has come out today! This makes him Untrustworty an dishonest, so yes he should resign!


Hoare (400)

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

HistoricWarwick, on 12 September 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

We all know so many things could and should have been addressed that would have saved lives. Should the police and emergency services have acted differently, yes, should they have blamed supporters, absolutely not as this is unforgiveable. Should the game been at Hillsborough, probably not, should Liverpool been given the kop end probably and so it goes on.

But to suggest that as it is perfectly acceptable to turn up late for a game drunk without a ticket (or any combination of these) and this admonishes you of all responsibility because it is the police's fault if they let you in, is in my eyes morally wrong.

Today's news focusses attention on the authorities for trying to blame others - which again is wrong and right that it has been highlighted. However it doesn't resolve that there were far more factors that led to what happened. For instance I will quote this as it is the only aspect I saw with my own eyes are the 3-4 coaches of Liverpool supporters (I know because they had Knowsley written on the rear) still in The Peacock at Owler Bar 40 mins before kick off. Why do I remember that whilst I was driving through Barlow? Because I thought it was stupid at the time that fans could leave it that late without missing the game.

Is it the authorities fault that fans such as these were leaving it late? Should they be responsible for managing traffic this far out of Sheffield?

I never will accept that it was one groups fault for what happened that day and yet the angle in today's coverage intimates it is.

We will all live to be old remembering that horrific day and in the eyes of some justice is done, to some it never will be but, my interpretation of today is that it was ALL down to the authorities - I will never accept that. If it teaches us one thing, it should be that we are all responsible for our actions and sadly sections of society don't see it like that.

Which "sections of society" are you referring to?

Let's get this absolutely clear: it was the responsibility of SY Police to manage the area in and around the stadium, something they'd done on numerous occasions before. However this time they totally failed in that responsibility - infact it was only sheer good luck a tragedy such as this hadn't happened in previous seasons (my own father was there to witness the on-field overspill when Spurs played in an earlier semi final) - then instigated the most disgusting of cover-ups to disguise their incompetance. Aided and abetted by sections of the media and, in all probability, British establishment.

Today has been an immense step forward, but i'd like to see those responsible for and complicit in this cover-up prosecuted.

This post has been edited by MDCCCLXVI: 12 September 2012 - 04:26 PM

[firedodger]

Bobby Darling, on 12 September 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

So even after today's evidence people like you still trot out the same old stories. Unbelievable. I put you in the same category as the South Yorkshire police. It is over. The truth is out.

Some people won't be happy until we have the name of one particular person (preferably a policeman) we can all blame for this.
Yes some police were to blame
Yes some people from SWFC were to blame
Yes some council officials were to blame
Yes some politicians were to blame
AND yes Liverpool supporters who stood at the back of that great ruck of people and pushed WERE TO BLAME
The sooner everybody grows up and accepts their share the better

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

philly8mt, on 12 September 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Its a disgrace it was covered up. ... Agreed
But Cameron should resign? Behave man! Did Blair or Brown do anything? No. .. Red or blue (in a political sense) all sat on this and it does none of em any credit whatsoever.

You're right they could've done more and sooner, but i think you'll find it was the last government who gave the green light for this investigation.

Then, as 'Hoare' says, it was Cameron's mob that did their best to block the findings until it became politically impossible to do so.

For what it's worth i also find it inconcievable that Thatcher's government didn't have at least a whiff of the cover-up exposed today. A 'thank you' for SY Police being her shock troops against the NUM, perhaps?

This post has been edited by MDCCCLXVI: 12 September 2012 - 04:39 PM

[Bobby Darling]

firedodger, on 12 September 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Some people won't be happy until we have the name of one particular person (preferably a policeman) we can all blame for this.
Yes some police were to blame
Yes some people from SWFC were to blame
Yes some council officials were to blame
Yes some politicians were to blame
AND yes Liverpool supporters who stood at the back of that great ruck of people and pushed WERE TO BLAME
The sooner everybody grows up and accepts their share the better

We have the name of the policeman.

[moondog]

firedodger, on 12 September 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Some people won't be happy until we have the name of one particular person (preferably a policeman) we can all blame for this.
Yes some police were to blame
Yes some people from SWFC were to blame
Yes some council officials were to blame
Yes some politicians were to blame
AND yes Liverpool supporters who stood at the back of that great ruck of people and pushed WERE TO BLAME
The sooner everybody grows up and accepts their share the better

where is the evidence anybody was pushing, how could anybody at the back of that terrace know what was happening at the front ?

[firedodger]

moondog, on 12 September 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

where is the evidence anybody was pushing, how could anybody at the back of that terrace know what was happening at the front ?

Come on you really cant be that stupid can you?
Your evidence of pushing is all the poor innocent dead and injured people at the front.
Of course people knew what was happening at the front, how could they not, unless of course they had never ever been to a football match in their lives?

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

firedodger, on 12 September 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Come on you really cant be that stupid can you?
Your evidence of pushing is all the poor innocent dead and injured people at the front.
Of course people knew what was happening at the front, how could they not, unless of course they had never ever been to a football match in their lives?

The point is, 'FD', that when you open the gates to a large crowd outside a stadium trying to get in everyone knows what's gonna happen next.

Including SY Police.

[Tylerdurdencfc]

MDCCCLXVI, on 12 September 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

The point is, 'FD', that when you open the gates to a large crowd outside a stadium trying to get in everyone knows what's gonna happen next.

Including SY Police.

And the reason they opened the gates were because people were being crushed to death outside at the turnstyles....

Numerous variables were involved that all contributed to deaths....to blame one person is wrong....


What is wrong though is the cover up that has taken place after....

[mr. smith]

Tylerdurdencfc, on 12 September 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

And the reason they opened the gates were because people were being crushed to death outside at the turnstyles....

Numerous variables were involved that all contributed to deaths....to blame one person is wrong....


What is wrong though is the cover up that has taken place after....

if the authorities had done nothing wrong why was there a cover up?

[Bobby Darling]

Tylerdurdencfc, on 12 September 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

And the reason they opened the gates were because people were being crushed to death outside at the turnstyles....

Numerous variables were involved that all contributed to deaths....to blame one person is wrong....


What is wrong though is the cover up that has taken place after....

The point is the police who saw the video tapes blamed themselves. Hence the cover up. The crush outside the gates was as a result of poor policing. Queues to enter grounds were normally policed properly and were orderly as a result.