[woody1978]

Seems to me we are losing games like yesterday in midfield we need a player who is not afraid of getting stuck in. We seem to be standing off far too often and letting teams just play

[sophocles]

woody1978, on 26 April 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

Seems to me we are losing games like yesterday in midfield we need a player who is not afraid of getting stuck in. We seem to be standing off far too often and letting teams just play

Disagree - yesterday's game was lost in defence; two goals from corners where we didn't stop the flick-on from the near post and didn't mark the man arriving towards the far post.

[BlueRover52]

sophocles, on 26 April 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Disagree - yesterday's game was lost in defence; two goals from corners where we didn't stop the flick-on from the near post and didn't mark the man arriving towards the far post.

Correct,poor marking.The first goal was a carbon copy of the first goal we conceded at Hereford.As for midfield the Morgan/Niv substitution should have happenend after 15 mins.
You certainly don't have a midfield battler in Whitaker.

This post has been edited by BlueRover52: 26 April 2011 - 04:07 PM

[Blue95]

whittaker didnt make one good tackle, if we had started with niv and allott i think we would of had a better chance of winning, the game bypasses whitts when its physical.

[Spireite-Karl]

Agree with the defence, you'd be an idiot not too! Though attacking wise/ midfield we really need our wingers to perform to get anything out of our central midfield.. This may sound a little silly, but when our wingers on their game the two ball players in the middle come into their own, when there is little outlet out wide then our central two really struggle. Whits for me out wide is a no no and Griffiths was struggling before Danny went wide, which only made his job twice as difficult.

Basically the defence didn't help, but with our wingers both having a non show then this is where we lost it (a combination of the two, I'd say).

Positives for me: I know I've given Davies a bit of a hard time (and not just his awful period) as his control and footballing brain can be very frustrating; but I've got to say yesterday I thought he was terrific and our easily our best player; the ground he covered was unreal and his control was very good for a change.

[woody1978]

whittakers passing yesterday was awfull and we struggled to make a decent tackle until niven came on

This post has been edited by woody1978: 26 April 2011 - 04:47 PM

[Spireite-Karl]

Dema Reborn, on 26 April 2011 - 04:11 PM, said:

Same old Soph lets shift the blame from Allott,he gave the ball away more times than i care to remember,he is over the hill....

Like I say in my above post our midfield two aren't up to the standard when our wingers aren't performing as neither of them are midfielders that can drive forward in possession. They need to spread it wide (mainly) or up to the front two and with Davies again having to go wide to have any joy, it wasn't an easy day for Allott and Danny (neither are past it); we/ they aren't suited to the type of game needed when we have no joy out wide. All the teams that stop our wingers (not that they needed to stop them yesterday) will have success against us.

I hear what you are saying out Allott Keith, but you are blaming him for something he just can't do! A bit like blaming Whittaker for not protecting Griffiths (who was having a mere); it's just something that Danny isn't comfortable in doing; the same with Allott!! When we've have two go wide outlets, Allott has starred, so he's hardly over the hill. We need to bring another quality central midfielder in, in the summer, but one who can drive the game forward, something that will give us different attacking options especially when our wide men are having meres! It will also make it harder for the oppersition to do a job on us.

[dim view]

Spireite-Karl, on 26 April 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

Basically the defence didn't help, but with our wingers both having a non show then this is where we lost it (a combination of the two, I'd say).

Bury's tactics were identical to Macclesfield's - they doubled up on our wingers, rendering them both ineffective. Unlike Macc however, they were much better once they got the ball.

[Spireite-Karl]

dim view, on 26 April 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

Bury's tactics were identical to Macclesfield's - they doubled up on our wingers, rendering them both ineffective. Unlike Macc however, they were much better once they got the ball.

Any team that does a job on our wingers will keep us quite. As you rightly said I was very impressed with their passing and their positional play was also far superior than ours. I disagree with the opening poster about the need for a tough tackler to get at um. Many town fans come to this conclusion and yes we do let teams play, but not when it can hurt us. Some of our fans want us to chase every ball and in the heat yesterday would have been foolish and isn't necessary. Why not let them play the ball around until they try to put a ball into a more dangerous area of the pitch? I can't get my head around some folks?? footballs like Chess and to win possession back is not to throw a Niven type player on to chase everything, but it's to let the oppersition make your decision easier. Thats why Allott reads the game so well and Niven doesn't. I'm not knocking Niven, he will chase, (but I bet he's rubbish at Chess )

[h again]

Spireite-Karl, on 26 April 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

Any team that does a job on our wingers will keep us quite. As you rightly said I was very impressed with their passing and their positional play was also far superior than ours. I disagree with the opening poster about the need for a tough tackler to get at um. Many town fans come to this conclusion and yes we do let teams play, but not when it can hurt us. Some of our fans want us to chase every ball and in the heat yesterday would have been foolish and isn't necessary. Why not let them play the ball around until they try to put a ball into a more dangerous area of the pitch? I can't get my head around some folks?? footballs like Chess and to win possession back is not to throw a Niven type player on to chase everything, but it's to let the oppersition make your decision easier. Thats why Allott reads the game so well and Niven doesn't. I'm not knocking Niven, he will chase, (but I bet he's rubbish at Chess )

Because they didn't play the ball around - they went straight for the jugular.
It's easy to see why they've got such a brilliant record away from home. They let the other team have the ball but mark up all the passing options. This leaves the opposing midfield with very few outlets so they tend to hang on to the ball and eventually lose it - and when anybody loses the ball in midfield the attackers are off like rockets, and unlike most teams in this division they know how to finish. We actually managed to counter this fairly well, especially in the second half, but were let down by incompetent defending. We might have done even better if Allott or Whittaker had run at their centre a bit more - Niv pushed up a bit and we looked all the more effective for it.
As somebody else has said, it's the way other teams have played against us - but they either couldn't finish or found Tommy lee in top form.

[spyright]

Spireite-Karl, on 26 April 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

Agree with the defence, you'd be an idiot not too! Though attacking wise/ midfield we really need our wingers to perform to get anything out of our central midfield.. This may sound a little silly, but when our wingers on their game the two ball players in the middle come into their own, when there is little outlet out wide then our central two really struggle. Whits for me out wide is a no no and Griffiths was struggling before Danny went wide, which only made his job twice as difficult.

Basically the defence didn't help, but with our wingers both having a non show then this is where we lost it (a combination of the two, I'd say).

Positives for me: I know I've given Davies a bit of a hard time (and not just his awful period) as his control and footballing brain can be very frustrating; but I've got to say yesterday I thought he was terrific and our easily our best player; the ground he covered was unreal and his control was very good for a change.

I kind of understand what you are trying to say 'S-K', but another way of saying it would be that our two CMs are okay when the opposition are struggling to cope with both of our wingers, i.e. when we are taking the game to them rather than the other way round. Bury stifled our wingers and more or less ran through our central midfield in the first half. It took the introduction of Niven - the man who has no technical skill and just runs around a lot according to some - to stem the flow. Which neatly illustrates the core problem that the Allott/Whittaker pairing doesn't work unless we are well on top of the game anyway. Against a well organised and hard-working side (like Bury or even Macclesfield, Burton etc) the CM becomes a weak point with predictable results.

And for the record, we all know that Niven's passing is erratic, but he showed on Monday that he can do the simple stuff and he's not entirely useless. He may be a workhorse of a player but all teams need someone like that in some games and at least when he plays the opposition know he was there, because he'll be constantly in their face and harrying them. How many players have gone off at full time and said 'that Whittaker is a tough bloke, never gave me any time and was always willing to put his foot in'?

We've won promotion and like everyone else I'm truly grateful to the players for all their hard work BUT next season will be a much tougher challenge and if we wish to progress further we need to rethink our central midfield. Not many Lge 1 sides will sit back and let us control both wings so that we can ignore the centre of the pitch.

[Eddie63]

sophocles, on 26 April 2011 - 04:02 PM, said:

Disagree - yesterday's game was lost in defence; two goals from corners where we didn't stop the flick-on from the near post and didn't mark the man arriving towards the far post.

dare I say it tactics and deciding on marking from corner comes from managment we got done twice from croners no man on near post.If an attacking player loses his marker then its good play but to have no man on the near post at every corner it must have been how we chose to defend.....

[Goku]

spyright, on 27 April 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

And for the record, we all know that Niven's passing is erratic, but he showed on Monday that he can do the simple stuff and he's not entirely useless. He may be a workhorse of a player but all teams need someone like that in some games and at least when he plays the opposition know he was there, because he'll be constantly in their face and harrying them. How many players have gone off at full time and said 'that Whittaker is a tough bloke, never gave me any time and was always willing to put his foot in'?

I don't see the relevance of the bolded bit, Whittaker isn't that type of player so to use it as a stick to beat him with is unfair. If you want to blame someone, blame Sheridan for playing him there.

[spyright]

Haslandboi, on 27 April 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

I don't see the relevance of the bolded bit, Whittaker isn't that type of player so to use it as a stick to beat him with is unfair. If you want to blame someone, blame Sheridan for playing him there.

My point was that sometimes that's exactly the sort of player we need in midfield and at the moment it seems we'v eonly got Niv who can fill this role. As others have said (and you sort of acknowledge by your comment), Whittaker is fine when we are in control and obviously he's been great from the penalty spot BUT we won't always be in control. Against Bury, Allott/Whittaker were simply overwhelmed and we only started to compete after the interval.

It's horses for courses and on some courses we need some steel in the middle of the pitch not artistry.

[RPL42YEARS]

I agree that L1 will be different. In L2 we've got away with carrying a lightweight CM.

In reality if Talbot stays at RB then we pretty much need to bring in an entire midfield for next season, and as I've said elsewhere, if that involves the release of Whitaker (who I think has found his level in L2) as well as Niven and Allott then fine.

For the money available, prior to the reported increase for next year, there are better and more complete players.

It would be interesting to know where Jamie and Dwayne feature in the managers plans - defence or midfield? A fit Jamie would be RB for me releasing Drew to wide right. Dwayne would also be the new Allott (... but with goals).

[Spireite-Karl]

spyright, on 27 April 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

I kind of understand what you are trying to say 'S-K', but another way of saying it would be that our two CMs are okay when the opposition are struggling to cope with both of our wingers, i.e. when we are taking the game to them rather than the other way round. Bury stifled our wingers and more or less ran through our central midfield in the first half. It took the introduction of Niven - the man who has no technical skill and just runs around a lot according to some - to stem the flow. Which neatly illustrates the core problem that the Allott/Whittaker pairing doesn't work unless we are well on top of the game anyway. Against a well organised and hard-working side (like Bury or even Macclesfield, Burton etc) the CM becomes a weak point with predictable results.

And for the record, we all know that Niven's passing is erratic, but he showed on Monday that he can do the simple stuff and he's not entirely useless. He may be a workhorse of a player but all teams need someone like that in some games and at least when he plays the opposition know he was there, because he'll be constantly in their face and harrying them. How many players have gone off at full time and said 'that Whittaker is a tough bloke, never gave me any time and was always willing to put his foot in'?

We've won promotion and like everyone else I'm truly grateful to the players for all their hard work BUT next season will be a much tougher challenge and if we wish to progress further we need to rethink our central midfield. Not many Lge 1 sides will sit back and let us control both wings so that we can ignore the centre of the pitch.

It could have been that or the rocket up the bottom that Sheridan would have installed at half time.

[garjomo]

Spireite-Karl, on 27 April 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

It could have been that or the rocket up the bottom that Sheridan would have installed at half time.

I think it also had something to do with the fact we changed our approach. Instead of the tippy tappy let's get it wide and run the wings approach, we tried diagonal long balls which caused them issues. Mainly because they could double up on us when the ball was moved quickly. I suspect you're right in that Sheridan must have said "try something different."

[h again]

Spireite-Karl, on 27 April 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

It could have been that or the rocket up the bottom that Sheridan would have installed at half time.

Could have been, but Niven at least added some much-needed backbone to the midfield. I've got tired of saying it months ago; Whittaker is a fine player but not in the melting pot that is central midfield in this division. On the wing, with a licence to roam he's a big asset. Whether he'll be better in Div.1 with a tiny bit less of the physical stuff remains to be seen, but I doubt it.

[Walton Spireite]

Spireite-Karl, on 26 April 2011 - 04:35 PM, said:

Like I say in my above post our midfield two aren't up to the standard when our wingers aren't performing as neither of them are midfielders that can drive forward in possession. They need to spread it wide (mainly) or up to the front two and with Davies again having to go wide to have any joy, it wasn't an easy day for Allott and Danny (neither are past it); we/ they aren't suited to the type of game needed when we have no joy out wide. All the teams that stop our wingers (not that they needed to stop them yesterday) will have success against us.

I hear what you are saying out Allott Keith, but you are blaming him for something he just can't do! A bit like blaming Whittaker for not protecting Griffiths (who was having a mere); it's just something that Danny isn't comfortable in doing; the same with Allott!! When we've have two go wide outlets, Allott has starred, so he's hardly over the hill. We need to bring another quality central midfielder in, in the summer, but one who can drive the game forward, something that will give us different attacking options especially when our wide men are having meres! It will also make it harder for the oppersition to do a job on us.

Excellent post I would agree with all of that.