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#6381 User is offline   Mr Mercury 

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Posted 23 May 2025 - 08:43 PM

View PostGoku, on 22 May 2025 - 10:04 AM, said:

Still don't get this Chagos Island stuff

Starmer and the Labour betrayal of the UK. Which, in a nut shell, is the basis of every policy since they came to power.
Hope that explains it.

This post has been edited by Mr Mercury: 23 May 2025 - 08:49 PM

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#6382 User is offline   The Earl of Chesterfield 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 05:40 AM

View PostMr Mercury, on 23 May 2025 - 08:43 PM, said:

Starmer and the Labour betrayal of the UK. Which, in a nut shell, is the basis of every policy since they came to power.
Hope that explains it.


The Chagos Islands are another remnant of empire. Of colonialism. Of European expansion.

The UK took 'ownership' of them in the early nineteenth century after the French.

We retained a presence there, however pressure from a number of residents resulted in international courts deeming that presence illegal.

Those judgements were accepted by Boris Johnson's government, but in the style for which he's now renown they chose to spend millions of taxpayers' money ducking and dodging and denying rather than pursue a legitimate conclusion.

In fact it was Truss's short lived administration which began genuine negotiations to cede sovereignty, talks continued during Sunak's tenure and now being finalised by Starmer's.

The UK could adopt a Trumpian attitude. Totally ignore little things like morals or honour or the law. But instead an arrangement where we become rent paying tennants has been arrived at.

Of course Labour's opponents will sneer and jeee and smear as usual. They'll peddle mindless misinformation peppered with words like 'betrayal' or 'treachery' or 'woak' as they always do. Yet a more accurate headline might be 'UK bolsters global influence by securing long term base'. In the same way multi-billions is spent on, say, the Falklands.

Be interesting to see the reaction if a boat load of Chagossians turned up at Dover demanding asylum, too.

Hope that explains it...
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#6383 User is offline   Mr Mercury 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 06:26 AM

View PostThe Earl of Chesterfield, on 24 May 2025 - 05:40 AM, said:

The Chagos Islands are another remnant of empire. Of colonialism. Of European expansion.

The UK took 'ownership' of them in the early nineteenth century after the French.

We retained a presence there, however pressure from a number of residents resulted in international courts deeming that presence illegal.

Those judgements were accepted by Boris Johnson's government, but in the style for which he's now renown they chose to spend millions of taxpayers' money ducking and dodging and denying rather than pursue a legitimate conclusion.

In fact it was Truss's short lived administration which began genuine negotiations to cede sovereignty, talks continued during Sunak's tenure and now being finalised by Starmer's.

The UK could adopt a Trumpian attitude. Totally ignore little things like morals or honour or the law. But instead an arrangement where we become rent paying tennants has been arrived at.

Of course Labour's opponents will sneer and jeee and smear as usual. They'll peddle mindless misinformation peppered with words like 'betrayal' or 'treachery' or 'woak' as they always do. Yet a more accurate headline might be 'UK bolsters global influence by securing long term base'. In the same way multi-billions is spent on, say, the Falklands.

Be interesting to see the reaction if a boat load of Chagossians turned up at Dover demanding asylum, too.

Hope that explains it...

I see Starmers been telling more porkies to the house about how much this latest bout of Labour knee taking is going to cost us, the British tax payer, hasn’t he?

https://www.express....h-public-chagos
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#6384 User is offline   Mr Mercury 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 06:34 AM

So Brexit got us a trade deal with the US but could Starmers deceit and duplicity, and treating the UK public who voted for it with utter contempt, now backfire after he bowed down to the EU and Ursula von der Layen in a pitiful act of surrender, almost taking us back into the EU at his own behest?
Will be caught up in a tariff fall out?

https://news.sky.com...threat-13373692
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#6385 User is offline   Goku 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 06:38 AM

View PostMr Mercury, on 24 May 2025 - 06:34 AM, said:

So Brexit got us a trade deal with the US but could Starmers deceit and duplicity, and treating the UK public who voted for it with utter contempt, now backfire after he bowed down to the EU and Ursula von der Layen in a pitiful act of surrender, almost taking us back into the EU at his own behest?
Will be caught up in a tariff fall out?

https://news.sky.com...threat-13373692


Hope we rejoin the EU solely to spite you 😁

This post has been edited by Goku: 24 May 2025 - 06:40 AM

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#6386 User is offline   Middle East 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 06:45 AM

View Postisleaiw1, on 22 May 2025 - 02:07 PM, said:

I fully accept lots of people have lived experience that influences their views. It is a fact that young people see more black and white and less grey and experience reminds you that there is less cut and dried, right and wrong, and just shades depending on your beliefs.

So I wasn't being patronising, and apologise if that is what you think. Of course Goku does have a thing about old folk (but it might be a joke) so there is an element of relecting that back at him.

I think I am just as much a socialist now as I was when younger although now I have realised that how you raise the extra money to give to those who can't provide for themselves (and hopefully not so much for those who won't!) has big implications and now see more the challenges created by that.

The pension point was very tongue in cheek - although the reference to not being able to afford it so having to vote to kill it was quite pointed given the state of the UK govts finances and it still financing those schemes!

Enjoy Gran Canaria - Turkey for me in 8 days, can't wait!




As its net migration it maybe reflects the rush to leave Starmers Britain! Interesting that he may be deliberately wrecking the place so net migration figures move in his favour ;)


Thanks. Enjoy Turkey too

This post has been edited by Middle East: 24 May 2025 - 06:45 AM

BRITISH BY BIRTH - ENGLISH BY THE GRACE OF GOD
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#6387 User is offline   Mr Mercury 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 07:15 AM

Superb Saturday essay in Todays Mail from Andrew Neil about how Starmer and this government are basically nothing more than a group of shabby deceitful liars.

In 55 years of covering politics, I’ve never accused any UK Government of routinely telling untruths. But Starmer & Co have taken lying and gaslighting to a deplorable level
Saturday Essay by Andrew Neil
Listen to article
HOW can you tell when politicians are lying? Their lips are moving. It’s a hoary old joke but it can still be guaranteed to raise a rueful chuckle among British voters increasingly disillusioned with the political process. I always thought it a tad unfair.

Yes, politicians do deploy all manner of contrivances to avoid telling the truth when it’s inconvenient. As someone who’s spent an adult lifetime interviewing them, I can readily testify to that.

They regularly mislead, dissemble, obfuscate, bluster, sidestep the question and teeter on the edge of lying by being economical with the truth.

But outright lie? I have found that to be very rare indeed - on either side of the political divide.

No longer. I have had to revise my opinion. In the so far short and sad existence of the Starmer Government, lying has become not just a feature to which it increasingly resorts - it’s become its modus operandi, with the Prime Minister himself leading the charge into untruths.

For me, matters came to a head this week.

In the wake of the latest net migration figures, showing a 50 per cent reduction compared with 2023, the Home Office tweeted out a poster which said ‘Net Migration cut by nearly 50%’, describing it as ‘the largest-ever drop in net migration for any 12-month period’.

The implication was clear: it was all somehow a result of Labour Government policy. But, of course, it wasn’t. And the Government knows it wasn’t.

Last year’s fall in net migration (only the ‘largest-ever drop’ because it was coming off such a high total the year before of almost one million) was largely the result of tougher visa rules introduced, belatedly, by the previous Tory government when James Cleverly was Home Secretary.

For half of last year Labour wasn’t even in power. In opposition, it had actually attacked Cleverly’s rule-tightening, with then Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper (now in charge of the Home Office) dismissing it as ‘chaotic’ and ‘Tory failure’.

But that didn’t stop Keir Starmer from going even further than his Home Secretary. On Thursday he tweeted out the claim that ‘we have nearly halved net migration in the last year. We’re taking back control.’

Labour, of course, had done no such thing. It had merely presided over implementing the new rules it inherited from the Tories - rules it had criticised in opposition - when it took power in the second half of the year.

This is not misleading or obfuscation or being economical with the truth or any other circumlocution we might like to fall back on to gloss over what is really happening. It is, in plain English, a downright lie.

Why? That’s easy to answer. The Government’s approval ratings are in the dirt. So are the PM’s personal ratings. As the economy stutters during the year ahead, there’s probably worse to come.

Nigel Farage’s Reform Party is soaring ahead in the polls, leaving Labour in its tracks and the hapless Tories nowhere to be seen.

Uncontrolled mass migration is the rocket fuel that propels Reform. Labour is so desperate to counter its appeal that it’s ready to lie about the issue which gives Reform most salience. It’s a response born out of panic. And it is, of course, fooling nobody.

This week I asked a prominent Labour MP, often wheeled out for broadcast interviews, to tell us exactly what Labour had done last year to cut net migration by 50 per cent. I said I was especially interested in what Labour had done during the six months it wasn’t even in power! Naturally, I’m still waiting for an answer.

‘You really must take us for fools,’ I said.

Perhaps we should not be surprised that lying and gaslighting - telling us things we know not to be true but doing it with such authority that we begin to question our own sanity - have become the distinguishing features of the Starmer Government.

The Prime Minister, after all, has a long track record of doing both.

Let us not forget that Starmer was elected leader of the Labour Party just over five years ago on an undiluted Corbynista prospectus. He proposed the nationalisation of energy, water and the mail, the scrapping of Universal Credit and university tuition fees, and banning outsourcing in the public sector.

He had once described Jeremy Corbyn as a ‘friend’ and then, sometime later, as ‘never a friend’.

In a BBC TV interview to which many still refer, I asked him if he promised Corbyn’s policies would be in the next Labour manifesto. His answer was a categorical ‘Yes’ - adding these policies were not just promises, they were pledges. Within a year every one had been junked.

Starmer realised that what had made him Labour leader wouldn’t necessarily make him Prime Minister. So he fought last year’s general election with a manifesto as phoney as the one with which he’d bid for his party’s leadership.

‘We don’t need higher taxes,’ Shadow Chancellor Rachel Reeves insisted during the campaign. Labour has ‘no plans to increase any taxes’, she regularly repeated (bar a few small, specific rises, like VAT on school fees), thereby confirming the old maxim that when a politician says they have ‘no plans’ to do something, the reality is they have a shed load just waiting to be wheeled out.

And so it transpired. Labour fought the election on tax rises of only £8.5 billion, an extra £9.5 billion in spending and £3.5 billion in additional borrowing.

In her first Budget last October Chancellor Reeves raised taxes by £40 billion and borrowed £36 billion more, allowing for a massive extra increase in public spending of £76 billion between now and the end of the decade.

So, an actual £76 billion more versus a promise of only a frugal £9.5 billion more.

I guess if you’re going to lie you might as well make it a whopper.

Reeves claimed she’d been forced to increase taxes because she’d discovered a £22 billion ‘black hole’ in the public finances on taking office. But this was to pile lie upon lie.

As The Guardian revealed during the election campaign, it was always the plan to say, ‘We’ve seen the books, it’s much worse than we thought’, as the precursor to whacking up taxes, spending and borrowing.

No doubt lots of documents and policy papers since last summer have been shredded and deleted at Labour Party HQ. But, one day, written evidence will come out to confirm what Labour intended all along. It always does.

At no stage has the Office for Budget Responsibility, which Reeves professes to revere, ever endorsed the existence of a £22 billion black hole.

What we do know is that the public finances, not left in any great shape by the Tories, were immediately made worse on Labour taking office by doling out all manner of inflationary pay rises to the party’s friends in the public sector.

In any case, even if there had been a black hole of some £22 billion, when did that require £40 billion more in taxes and almost as much in extra borrowing?

In many ways the Starmer Government has never recovered from Reeves’s disastrous first Budget - which has only made the PM even more cavalier with the facts. Labour had inherited 11 per cent interest rates, he told the House of Commons earlier this year. Which is odd since rates peaked at 5.25 per cent under the previous government.

Hospices have been given an extra £100 million to help them cope with the increase in employer national insurance contributions (NICs) imposed by his Government, he regularly tells the House.

He continues to claim this even after being told the £100 million is a capital grant and nothing to do with meeting running costs, such as increased NICs.

He boasts about an £880 million increase in funding for social care without mentioning the rise in NICs will cost care homes £900 million.

The lies and gaslighting are now coming thick and fast from the Starmer Government across a broad front.

Reeves continues to insist her Budget was tough but ‘fixed the foundations of the economy’, even as inflation spikes back to 3.5 per cent, dole queues lengthen and Government borrowing remains elevated - so much so that those lending the Government money are demanding record returns (higher than even during the ClusterTruss interregnum in 2022).

In reality, our economic foundations are shakier than ever, as we will discover when Reeves is forced to put up taxes again in her second Budget this autumn.

The Chancellor denies she’ll have to do this, which pretty much guarantees that she will. Her promises of no more tax rises are as bankable as the ones she gave us during last summer’s election campaign.

Sometimes the porky pies are too ludicrous to take seriously. Cabinet minister Lucy Powell claimed that if the Government had not cut the winter fuel allowance for most pensioners there would have been ‘a run on the pound’. In which case, better sell your sterling fast now the Government is U-turning on the cut.

This week, Justice Secretary Shabana Mahmood, trying to deflect from her plans to let prisoners, even violent ones, out early, mooted the idea she might support mandatory chemical castration for sex offenders.

Her idea was to convince us that she wasn’t quite the softie when it comes to penal policy that she seemed. It is, of course, an absurd proposition which will never happen. But it is gaslighting of a high order.

Increasingly, we’re being misled by omission. Starmer boasts of his new youth mobility scheme with the European Union (which he ruled out only eight months ago - ‘no plans’, again).

But he cannot tell us how many will come here, for how long and what the division will be between work and study.

He says he’s negotiated a better deal for British food and defence exports to the EU. But will not say how much the improved access is going to cost us (likely hundreds of millions) - or why we’re paying for more free trade.

He claims to have opened the e-gates for us at European airports, without telling us when (not in time for this summer).

In all these cases we know what we’re giving away (for example, fishing rights for another 12 years). But we have only the vaguest idea what we’re getting in return. It’s a pretty good rule of thumb that when governments won’t tell you things it’s because the truth will hurt.

That explains the mountain of obfuscation surrounding the Chagos Islands deal. The untruths we’ve been served up on that would merit an essay in their own right. Suffice to say almost everything we’ve been told, from the need to do the deal to the cost (the sums must have been done by Diane Abbott), is untrue - which makes it the perfect poster child for this Government.

In opposition, Starmer vowed to provide a Government in which ‘truth means something and where honesty is at the heart of everything that it does… honesty and integrity matter. You will always get that from me.’

How hollow these words sound now from a man leading a Government which after less than a year in power is already a stranger to the truth.

The country has had untrustworthy governments in the past, from Harold Wilson’s Labour administrations of the 1960s and 70s to Boris Johnson’s government at the start of this decade. Whatever their achievements, it was always wise to perform an independent audit of everything they said.

But in 55 years of covering politics close up, I have never felt it necessary to accuse any government, on the Left or the Right, of congenitally telling untruths.

Now, for the first time, I do. The Starmer Government has taken the lying, the gaslighting and the deceit to a new level.

It has become endemic in almost everything it does - and it’s getting worse. It corrodes public trust which, once lost, is impossible to rebuild.

Starmer is heading down a dark road from which, as he will soon discover, there is no return.
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#6388 User is offline   Goku 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 07:18 AM

View PostMr Mercury, on 24 May 2025 - 07:15 AM, said:

In 55 years of covering politics, I’ve never accused any UK Government of routinely telling untruths.


No need to read past the first line
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#6389 User is offline   Mr Mercury 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 07:25 AM

View PostGoku, on 24 May 2025 - 07:18 AM, said:

No need to read past the first line

I’m sure many won’t mate, the truth hurts.

But to cut out the bulk of it here’s the last couple of lines……

The Starmer Government has taken the lying, the gaslighting and the deceit to a new level.

It has become endemic in almost everything it does - and it’s getting worse. It corrodes public trust which, once lost, is impossible to rebuild.

Starmer is heading down a dark road from which, as he will soon discover, there is no return.

This post has been edited by Mr Mercury: 24 May 2025 - 07:36 AM

East stand second class citizen.
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#6390 User is offline   The Jolly Friar 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 08:34 AM

View PostThe Earl of Chesterfield, on 24 May 2025 - 05:40 AM, said:

The Chagos Islands are another remnant of empire. Of colonialism. Of European expansion.

The UK took 'ownership' of them in the early nineteenth century after the French.

We retained a presence there, however pressure from a number of residents resulted in international courts deeming that presence illegal.

Those judgements were accepted by Boris Johnson's government, but in the style for which he's now renown they chose to spend millions of taxpayers' money ducking and dodging and denying rather than pursue a legitimate conclusion.

In fact it was Truss's short lived administration which began genuine negotiations to cede sovereignty, talks continued during Sunak's tenure and now being finalised by Starmer's.

The UK could adopt a Trumpian attitude. Totally ignore little things like morals or honour or the law. But instead an arrangement where we become rent paying tennants has been arrived at.

Of course Labour's opponents will sneer and jeee and smear as usual. They'll peddle mindless misinformation peppered with words like 'betrayal' or 'treachery' or 'woak' as they always do. Yet a more accurate headline might be 'UK bolsters global influence by securing long term base'. In the same way multi-billions is spent on, say, the Falklands.

Be interesting to see the reaction if a boat load of Chagossians turned up at Dover demanding asylum, too.

Hope that explains it...


It explains how a self righteous Britain hater and EU lover who, like some extinct dinosoaur, rewrites history to tell us his country is wicked and evil which, of course, is just one of his encyclopeia of looney narratives.

No rats in sewage description of Reform voters today, just his own sneeering and jeering to remind us he's returned to the Labour thread he's avoided for so long out of embarrassment. Seems also, despite his faux denunciation of Starmer, he's jumped back into it's cart as it rumbles its way to the cliff edge and tumbles over into oblivion.

First time I've ever heard a treasonable surrender of British sovereign territory called an 'arrangement'. Suck sickly appeasement of mediocrity makes one want to wrench.
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#6391 User is offline   dim view 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 09:20 AM

View PostGoku, on 24 May 2025 - 07:18 AM, said:

No need to read past the first line

Spot on.
Why did he not accuse Johnson of 'routinely telling untruths'?
Cos he's a sympathiser..
Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
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#6392 User is offline   calvin plummers socks 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 10:08 AM

View PostMr Mercury, on 24 May 2025 - 07:15 AM, said:

Superb Saturday essay in Todays Mail from Andrew Neil about how Starmer and this government are basically nothing more than a group of shabby deceitful liars.

In 55 years of covering politics, I’ve never accused any UK Government of routinely telling untruths. But Starmer & Co have taken lying and gaslighting to a deplorable level
Saturday Essay by Andrew Neil
Listen to article
HOW can you tell when politicians are lying? Their lips are moving. It’s a hoary old joke but it can still be guaranteed to raise a rueful chuckle among British voters increasingly disillusioned with the political process. I always thought it a tad unfair.

Yes, politicians do deploy all manner of contrivances to avoid telling the truth when it’s inconvenient. As someone who’s spent an adult lifetime interviewing them, I can readily testify to that.

They regularly mislead, dissemble, obfuscate, bluster, sidestep the question and teeter on the edge of lying by being economical with the truth.

But outright lie? I have found that to be very rare indeed - on either side of the political divide.

No longer. I have had to revise my opinion. In the so far short and sad existence of the Starmer Government, lying has become not just a feature to which it increasingly resorts - it’s become its modus operandi, with the Prime Minister himself leading the charge into untruths.

For me, matters came to a head this week.

In the wake of the latest net migration figures, showing a 50 per cent reduction compared with 2023, the Home Office tweeted out a poster which said ‘Net Migration cut by nearly 50%’, describing it as ‘the largest-ever drop in net migration for any 12-month period’.

The implication was clear: it was all somehow a result of Labour Government policy. But, of course, it wasn’t. And the Government knows it wasn’t.

Last year’s fall in net migration (only the ‘largest-ever drop’ because it was coming off such a high total the year before of almost one million) was largely the result of tougher visa rules introduced, belatedly, by the previous Tory government when James Cleverly was Home Secretary.

For half of last year Labour wasn’t even in power. In opposition, it had actually attacked Cleverly’s rule-tightening, with then Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper (now in charge of the Home Office) dismissing it as ‘chaotic’ and ‘Tory failure’.

But that didn’t stop Keir Starmer from going even further than his Home Secretary. On Thursday he tweeted out the claim that ‘we have nearly halved net migration in the last year. We’re taking back control.’

Labour, of course, had done no such thing. It had merely presided over implementing the new rules it inherited from the Tories - rules it had criticised in opposition - when it took power in the second half of the year.

This is not misleading or obfuscation or being economical with the truth or any other circumlocution we might like to fall back on to gloss over what is really happening. It is, in plain English, a downright lie.

Why? That’s easy to answer. The Government’s approval ratings are in the dirt. So are the PM’s personal ratings. As the economy stutters during the year ahead, there’s probably worse to come.

Nigel Farage’s Reform Party is soaring ahead in the polls, leaving Labour in its tracks and the hapless Tories nowhere to be seen.

Uncontrolled mass migration is the rocket fuel that propels Reform. Labour is so desperate to counter its appeal that it’s ready to lie about the issue which gives Reform most salience. It’s a response born out of panic. And it is, of course, fooling nobody.

This week I asked a prominent Labour MP, often wheeled out for broadcast interviews, to tell us exactly what Labour had done last year to cut net migration by 50 per cent. I said I was especially interested in what Labour had done during the six months it wasn’t even in power! Naturally, I’m still waiting for an answer.

‘You really must take us for fools,’ I said.

Perhaps we should not be surprised that lying and gaslighting - telling us things we know not to be true but doing it with such authority that we begin to question our own sanity - have become the distinguishing features of the Starmer Government.

The Prime Minister, after all, has a long track record of doing both.

Let us not forget that Starmer was elected leader of the Labour Party just over five years ago on an undiluted Corbynista prospectus. He proposed the nationalisation of energy, water and the mail, the scrapping of Universal Credit and university tuition fees, and banning outsourcing in the public sector.

He had once described Jeremy Corbyn as a ‘friend’ and then, sometime later, as ‘never a friend’.

In a BBC TV interview to which many still refer, I asked him if he promised Corbyn’s policies would be in the next Labour manifesto. His answer was a categorical ‘Yes’ - adding these policies were not just promises, they were pledges. Within a year every one had been junked.

Starmer realised that what had made him Labour leader wouldn’t necessarily make him Prime Minister. So he fought last year’s general election with a manifesto as phoney as the one with which he’d bid for his party’s leadership.

‘We don’t need higher taxes,’ Shadow Chancellor Rachel Reeves insisted during the campaign. Labour has ‘no plans to increase any taxes’, she regularly repeated (bar a few small, specific rises, like VAT on school fees), thereby confirming the old maxim that when a politician says they have ‘no plans’ to do something, the reality is they have a shed load just waiting to be wheeled out.

And so it transpired. Labour fought the election on tax rises of only £8.5 billion, an extra £9.5 billion in spending and £3.5 billion in additional borrowing.

In her first Budget last October Chancellor Reeves raised taxes by £40 billion and borrowed £36 billion more, allowing for a massive extra increase in public spending of £76 billion between now and the end of the decade.

So, an actual £76 billion more versus a promise of only a frugal £9.5 billion more.

I guess if you’re going to lie you might as well make it a whopper.

Reeves claimed she’d been forced to increase taxes because she’d discovered a £22 billion ‘black hole’ in the public finances on taking office. But this was to pile lie upon lie.

As The Guardian revealed during the election campaign, it was always the plan to say, ‘We’ve seen the books, it’s much worse than we thought’, as the precursor to whacking up taxes, spending and borrowing.

No doubt lots of documents and policy papers since last summer have been shredded and deleted at Labour Party HQ. But, one day, written evidence will come out to confirm what Labour intended all along. It always does.

At no stage has the Office for Budget Responsibility, which Reeves professes to revere, ever endorsed the existence of a £22 billion black hole.

What we do know is that the public finances, not left in any great shape by the Tories, were immediately made worse on Labour taking office by doling out all manner of inflationary pay rises to the party’s friends in the public sector.

In any case, even if there had been a black hole of some £22 billion, when did that require £40 billion more in taxes and almost as much in extra borrowing?

In many ways the Starmer Government has never recovered from Reeves’s disastrous first Budget - which has only made the PM even more cavalier with the facts. Labour had inherited 11 per cent interest rates, he told the House of Commons earlier this year. Which is odd since rates peaked at 5.25 per cent under the previous government.

Hospices have been given an extra £100 million to help them cope with the increase in employer national insurance contributions (NICs) imposed by his Government, he regularly tells the House.

He continues to claim this even after being told the £100 million is a capital grant and nothing to do with meeting running costs, such as increased NICs.

He boasts about an £880 million increase in funding for social care without mentioning the rise in NICs will cost care homes £900 million.

The lies and gaslighting are now coming thick and fast from the Starmer Government across a broad front.

Reeves continues to insist her Budget was tough but ‘fixed the foundations of the economy’, even as inflation spikes back to 3.5 per cent, dole queues lengthen and Government borrowing remains elevated - so much so that those lending the Government money are demanding record returns (higher than even during the ClusterTruss interregnum in 2022).

In reality, our economic foundations are shakier than ever, as we will discover when Reeves is forced to put up taxes again in her second Budget this autumn.

The Chancellor denies she’ll have to do this, which pretty much guarantees that she will. Her promises of no more tax rises are as bankable as the ones she gave us during last summer’s election campaign.

Sometimes the porky pies are too ludicrous to take seriously. Cabinet minister Lucy Powell claimed that if the Government had not cut the winter fuel allowance for most pensioners there would have been ‘a run on the pound’. In which case, better sell your sterling fast now the Government is U-turning on the cut.

This week, Justice Secretary Shabana Mahmood, trying to deflect from her plans to let prisoners, even violent ones, out early, mooted the idea she might support mandatory chemical castration for sex offenders.

Her idea was to convince us that she wasn’t quite the softie when it comes to penal policy that she seemed. It is, of course, an absurd proposition which will never happen. But it is gaslighting of a high order.

Increasingly, we’re being misled by omission. Starmer boasts of his new youth mobility scheme with the European Union (which he ruled out only eight months ago - ‘no plans’, again).

But he cannot tell us how many will come here, for how long and what the division will be between work and study.

He says he’s negotiated a better deal for British food and defence exports to the EU. But will not say how much the improved access is going to cost us (likely hundreds of millions) - or why we’re paying for more free trade.

He claims to have opened the e-gates for us at European airports, without telling us when (not in time for this summer).

In all these cases we know what we’re giving away (for example, fishing rights for another 12 years). But we have only the vaguest idea what we’re getting in return. It’s a pretty good rule of thumb that when governments won’t tell you things it’s because the truth will hurt.

That explains the mountain of obfuscation surrounding the Chagos Islands deal. The untruths we’ve been served up on that would merit an essay in their own right. Suffice to say almost everything we’ve been told, from the need to do the deal to the cost (the sums must have been done by Diane Abbott), is untrue - which makes it the perfect poster child for this Government.

In opposition, Starmer vowed to provide a Government in which ‘truth means something and where honesty is at the heart of everything that it does… honesty and integrity matter. You will always get that from me.’

How hollow these words sound now from a man leading a Government which after less than a year in power is already a stranger to the truth.

The country has had untrustworthy governments in the past, from Harold Wilson’s Labour administrations of the 1960s and 70s to Boris Johnson’s government at the start of this decade. Whatever their achievements, it was always wise to perform an independent audit of everything they said.

But in 55 years of covering politics close up, I have never felt it necessary to accuse any government, on the Left or the Right, of congenitally telling untruths.

Now, for the first time, I do. The Starmer Government has taken the lying, the gaslighting and the deceit to a new level.

It has become endemic in almost everything it does - and it’s getting worse. It corrodes public trust which, once lost, is impossible to rebuild.

Starmer is heading down a dark road from which, as he will soon discover, there is no return.


😂😂😂
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#6393 User is offline   Mr Mercury 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 10:10 AM

View Postdim view, on 24 May 2025 - 09:20 AM, said:

Spot on.
Why did he not accuse Johnson of 'routinely telling untruths'?
Cos he's a sympathiser..

Which of course may be completely true, but that doesn’t detract from the basic fact of the article that this Labour government treats the citizens of the UK with utter contempt by telling lie after lie after lie.
One that’s not even mentioned in the article is Starmer standing and telling Sky News, when asked about the appalling decision to keep Lucy Connelly behind bars and refuse her appeal, that he’s “not across the facts” of the case. Liar.
East stand second class citizen.
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#6394 User is offline   isleaiw1 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 11:06 AM

View Postcalvin plummers socks, on 24 May 2025 - 10:08 AM, said:

😂😂😂


Insightful commentary. Care to explain why you find it laughable. Surely the emoji should be concern or anger? Or maybe correct us all on the bits that are untrue!
Stay Home. Stay Safe.
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#6395 User is offline   calvin plummers socks 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 11:21 AM

View Postisleaiw1, on 24 May 2025 - 11:06 AM, said:

Insightful commentary. Care to explain why you find it laughable. Surely the emoji should be concern or anger? Or maybe correct us all on the bits that are untrue!


Have a day off love
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#6396 User is offline   Wooden Spoon 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 12:13 PM

View PostMr Mercury, on 24 May 2025 - 07:15 AM, said:

Superb Saturday essay in Todays Mail from Andrew Neil about how Starmer and this government are basically nothing more than a group of shabby deceitful liars.

In 55 years of covering politics, I’ve never accused any UK Government of routinely telling untruths. But Starmer & Co have taken lying and gaslighting to a deplorable level
Saturday Essay by Andrew Neil
Listen to article
HOW can you tell when politicians are lying? Their lips are moving. It’s a hoary old joke but it can still be guaranteed to raise a rueful chuckle among British voters increasingly disillusioned with the political process. I always thought it a tad unfair.

Yes, politicians do deploy all manner of contrivances to avoid telling the truth when it’s inconvenient. As someone who’s spent an adult lifetime interviewing them, I can readily testify to that.

They regularly mislead, dissemble, obfuscate, bluster, sidestep the question and teeter on the edge of lying by being economical with the truth.

But outright lie? I have found that to be very rare indeed - on either side of the political divide.

No longer. I have had to revise my opinion. In the so far short and sad existence of the Starmer Government, lying has become not just a feature to which it increasingly resorts - it’s become its modus operandi, with the Prime Minister himself leading the charge into untruths.

For me, matters came to a head this week.

In the wake of the latest net migration figures, showing a 50 per cent reduction compared with 2023, the Home Office tweeted out a poster which said ‘Net Migration cut by nearly 50%’, describing it as ‘the largest-ever drop in net migration for any 12-month period’.

The implication was clear: it was all somehow a result of Labour Government policy. But, of course, it wasn’t. And the Government knows it wasn’t.

Last year’s fall in net migration (only the ‘largest-ever drop’ because it was coming off such a high total the year before of almost one million) was largely the result of tougher visa rules introduced, belatedly, by the previous Tory government when James Cleverly was Home Secretary.

For half of last year Labour wasn’t even in power. In opposition, it had actually attacked Cleverly’s rule-tightening, with then Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper (now in charge of the Home Office) dismissing it as ‘chaotic’ and ‘Tory failure’.

But that didn’t stop Keir Starmer from going even further than his Home Secretary. On Thursday he tweeted out the claim that ‘we have nearly halved net migration in the last year. We’re taking back control.’

Labour, of course, had done no such thing. It had merely presided over implementing the new rules it inherited from the Tories - rules it had criticised in opposition - when it took power in the second half of the year.

This is not misleading or obfuscation or being economical with the truth or any other circumlocution we might like to fall back on to gloss over what is really happening. It is, in plain English, a downright lie.

Why? That’s easy to answer. The Government’s approval ratings are in the dirt. So are the PM’s personal ratings. As the economy stutters during the year ahead, there’s probably worse to come.

Nigel Farage’s Reform Party is soaring ahead in the polls, leaving Labour in its tracks and the hapless Tories nowhere to be seen.

Uncontrolled mass migration is the rocket fuel that propels Reform. Labour is so desperate to counter its appeal that it’s ready to lie about the issue which gives Reform most salience. It’s a response born out of panic. And it is, of course, fooling nobody.

This week I asked a prominent Labour MP, often wheeled out for broadcast interviews, to tell us exactly what Labour had done last year to cut net migration by 50 per cent. I said I was especially interested in what Labour had done during the six months it wasn’t even in power! Naturally, I’m still waiting for an answer.

‘You really must take us for fools,’ I said.

Perhaps we should not be surprised that lying and gaslighting - telling us things we know not to be true but doing it with such authority that we begin to question our own sanity - have become the distinguishing features of the Starmer Government.

The Prime Minister, after all, has a long track record of doing both.

Let us not forget that Starmer was elected leader of the Labour Party just over five years ago on an undiluted Corbynista prospectus. He proposed the nationalisation of energy, water and the mail, the scrapping of Universal Credit and university tuition fees, and banning outsourcing in the public sector.

He had once described Jeremy Corbyn as a ‘friend’ and then, sometime later, as ‘never a friend’.

In a BBC TV interview to which many still refer, I asked him if he promised Corbyn’s policies would be in the next Labour manifesto. His answer was a categorical ‘Yes’ - adding these policies were not just promises, they were pledges. Within a year every one had been junked.

Starmer realised that what had made him Labour leader wouldn’t necessarily make him Prime Minister. So he fought last year’s general election with a manifesto as phoney as the one with which he’d bid for his party’s leadership.

‘We don’t need higher taxes,’ Shadow Chancellor Rachel Reeves insisted during the campaign. Labour has ‘no plans to increase any taxes’, she regularly repeated (bar a few small, specific rises, like VAT on school fees), thereby confirming the old maxim that when a politician says they have ‘no plans’ to do something, the reality is they have a shed load just waiting to be wheeled out.

And so it transpired. Labour fought the election on tax rises of only £8.5 billion, an extra £9.5 billion in spending and £3.5 billion in additional borrowing.

In her first Budget last October Chancellor Reeves raised taxes by £40 billion and borrowed £36 billion more, allowing for a massive extra increase in public spending of £76 billion between now and the end of the decade.

So, an actual £76 billion more versus a promise of only a frugal £9.5 billion more.

I guess if you’re going to lie you might as well make it a whopper.

Reeves claimed she’d been forced to increase taxes because she’d discovered a £22 billion ‘black hole’ in the public finances on taking office. But this was to pile lie upon lie.

As The Guardian revealed during the election campaign, it was always the plan to say, ‘We’ve seen the books, it’s much worse than we thought’, as the precursor to whacking up taxes, spending and borrowing.

No doubt lots of documents and policy papers since last summer have been shredded and deleted at Labour Party HQ. But, one day, written evidence will come out to confirm what Labour intended all along. It always does.

At no stage has the Office for Budget Responsibility, which Reeves professes to revere, ever endorsed the existence of a £22 billion black hole.

What we do know is that the public finances, not left in any great shape by the Tories, were immediately made worse on Labour taking office by doling out all manner of inflationary pay rises to the party’s friends in the public sector.

In any case, even if there had been a black hole of some £22 billion, when did that require £40 billion more in taxes and almost as much in extra borrowing?

In many ways the Starmer Government has never recovered from Reeves’s disastrous first Budget - which has only made the PM even more cavalier with the facts. Labour had inherited 11 per cent interest rates, he told the House of Commons earlier this year. Which is odd since rates peaked at 5.25 per cent under the previous government.

Hospices have been given an extra £100 million to help them cope with the increase in employer national insurance contributions (NICs) imposed by his Government, he regularly tells the House.

He continues to claim this even after being told the £100 million is a capital grant and nothing to do with meeting running costs, such as increased NICs.

He boasts about an £880 million increase in funding for social care without mentioning the rise in NICs will cost care homes £900 million.

The lies and gaslighting are now coming thick and fast from the Starmer Government across a broad front.

Reeves continues to insist her Budget was tough but ‘fixed the foundations of the economy’, even as inflation spikes back to 3.5 per cent, dole queues lengthen and Government borrowing remains elevated - so much so that those lending the Government money are demanding record returns (higher than even during the ClusterTruss interregnum in 2022).

In reality, our economic foundations are shakier than ever, as we will discover when Reeves is forced to put up taxes again in her second Budget this autumn.

The Chancellor denies she’ll have to do this, which pretty much guarantees that she will. Her promises of no more tax rises are as bankable as the ones she gave us during last summer’s election campaign.

Sometimes the porky pies are too ludicrous to take seriously. Cabinet minister Lucy Powell claimed that if the Government had not cut the winter fuel allowance for most pensioners there would have been ‘a run on the pound’. In which case, better sell your sterling fast now the Government is U-turning on the cut.

This week, Justice Secretary Shabana Mahmood, trying to deflect from her plans to let prisoners, even violent ones, out early, mooted the idea she might support mandatory chemical castration for sex offenders.

Her idea was to convince us that she wasn’t quite the softie when it comes to penal policy that she seemed. It is, of course, an absurd proposition which will never happen. But it is gaslighting of a high order.

Increasingly, we’re being misled by omission. Starmer boasts of his new youth mobility scheme with the European Union (which he ruled out only eight months ago - ‘no plans’, again).

But he cannot tell us how many will come here, for how long and what the division will be between work and study.

He says he’s negotiated a better deal for British food and defence exports to the EU. But will not say how much the improved access is going to cost us (likely hundreds of millions) - or why we’re paying for more free trade.

He claims to have opened the e-gates for us at European airports, without telling us when (not in time for this summer).

In all these cases we know what we’re giving away (for example, fishing rights for another 12 years). But we have only the vaguest idea what we’re getting in return. It’s a pretty good rule of thumb that when governments won’t tell you things it’s because the truth will hurt.

That explains the mountain of obfuscation surrounding the Chagos Islands deal. The untruths we’ve been served up on that would merit an essay in their own right. Suffice to say almost everything we’ve been told, from the need to do the deal to the cost (the sums must have been done by Diane Abbott), is untrue - which makes it the perfect poster child for this Government.

In opposition, Starmer vowed to provide a Government in which ‘truth means something and where honesty is at the heart of everything that it does… honesty and integrity matter. You will always get that from me.’

How hollow these words sound now from a man leading a Government which after less than a year in power is already a stranger to the truth.

The country has had untrustworthy governments in the past, from Harold Wilson’s Labour administrations of the 1960s and 70s to Boris Johnson’s government at the start of this decade. Whatever their achievements, it was always wise to perform an independent audit of everything they said.

But in 55 years of covering politics close up, I have never felt it necessary to accuse any government, on the Left or the Right, of congenitally telling untruths.

Now, for the first time, I do. The Starmer Government has taken the lying, the gaslighting and the deceit to a new level.

It has become endemic in almost everything it does - and it’s getting worse. It corrodes public trust which, once lost, is impossible to rebuild.

Starmer is heading down a dark road from which, as he will soon discover, there is no return.



Johnson was a regular liar. He can’t deny that
A new hope.
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#6397 User is offline   s42blue 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 12:17 PM

View Postcalvin plummers socks, on 24 May 2025 - 11:21 AM, said:

Have a day off love


Wasn’t it a fair question? I genuinely don’t understand your posts.
"Can't change or choose your football club. Sorry son"
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#6398 User is offline   isleaiw1 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 01:16 PM

View Postcalvin plummers socks, on 24 May 2025 - 11:21 AM, said:

Have a day off love


That's a no then...
Stay Home. Stay Safe.
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#6399 User is offline   calvin plummers socks 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 02:14 PM

View Postisleaiw1, on 24 May 2025 - 01:16 PM, said:

That's a no then...


It’s a football forum and I’m not on Question Time.

You stick to your pension posts and I’ll stick to my hamstring dramas if you prefer?

Btw the Sea Containers is wonderful
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#6400 User is offline   Wooden Spoon 

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Posted 24 May 2025 - 03:26 PM

View Postisleaiw1, on 24 May 2025 - 01:16 PM, said:

That's a no then...

You didn’t expect CPS to actually give a reasoned answer did you?
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