[The Earl of Chesterfield]

DEATH, on 23 April 2020 - 05:39 AM, said:

https://www.google.c...7761.html%3famp

Wow.

If true - and let's be clear it's only an extrapolation no matter how legitimate - that puts us second to only Trump's America in fatalities.

No wonder there's a 'lag' in declaring numbers (okay, anecdotal I know, but heard the relative of a nursing home corona victim saying their test results were inexplicably 'delayed' on radio the other day - the bloke was a bobby, too!).

I wondered if this government had been inspired in their casual approach on my first contribution to this thread. Unfortunately the opposite's being proven with each passing day...

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

azul, on 22 April 2020 - 05:57 PM, said:

Someone will be on soon to claim this is fake news.

In the real world, the trouble with lying especially when under scrutiny, is you twist and turn and forget what you lied about and then have to lie again. The law of diminishing returns suggest you pull the plug on the lies and tell the truth, sooner the better.

Trump does that to perfection, not sure our crew have the skill or the audience to get away with it?

Seen the Sky News report on Yank protests?

Bloke who I guarantee believes in biblical plagues denies one happening before his own eyes. Or at least the science underpinning lockdown. Yeah, fantasies written thousands of years ago are facts yet what modern science says is 'fake news'.

Our friend 'DEATH' is right - there's just no rational way of engaging with such cranks...

[fishini]

Is there a difference between dying of covid 19 and dying with covid 19? How many deaths are solely down to the virus? What was the life expectancy of the people with underlying health issues? These stats will I presume be calculated after it has settled down

[azul]

fishini, on 23 April 2020 - 08:01 AM, said:

Is there a difference between and dying with covid 19? How many deaths are solely down to the virus? What was the life expectancy of the people with underlying health issues? These stats will I presume be calculated after it has settled down

I thnk those distinctions are bogus and I reckon you are on dangerous ground.

It has been suggested that some young people suffer because their immune systems are strong and it overreacts to the virus. This causes all kinds of damage to organs, how would you catigorise this, "dying of covid 19" or "dying with covid 19"

[fishini]

azul, on 23 April 2020 - 08:38 AM, said:

I thnk those distinctions are bogus and I reckon you are on dangerous ground.

It has been suggested that some young people suffer because their immune systems are strong and it overreacts to the virus. This causes all kinds of damage to organs, how would you catigorise this, "dying of covid 19" or "dying with covid 19"

I don't know I was just asking the question. I know someone who had terminal cancer, he died after contracting covid. Now did he die of covid or cancer? I am not trying to be controversial just curious.

[azul]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 April 2020 - 06:35 AM, said:

Seen the Sky News report on Yank protests?

Bloke who I guarantee believes in biblical plagues denies one happening before his own eyes. Or at least the science underpinning lockdown. Yeah, fantasies written thousands of years ago are facts yet what modern science says is 'fake news'.

Our friend 'DEATH' is right - there's just no rational way of engaging with such cranks...

Evangelism is rampent in the USA. I have seen estimates that there could be as many as 100M. At the extreme end, they are every bit dangerous as any other religious extremist

I saw an interview with a women attending an illegal church service over Easter in Kansas and the reporter suggesting she was endangering others, she said "I don't care, I'm covered in Jesus' blood"

Here is the clip (not Kansas it was Ohio)

https://crooksandlia...n-she-can-t-get

Fancy debating her

This post has been edited by azul: 23 April 2020 - 09:00 AM

[clarevoyant.]

azul, on 23 April 2020 - 08:53 AM, said:

Evangelism is rampent in the USA. I have seen estimates that there could be as many as 100M. At the extreme end, they are every bit dangerous as any other religious extremist

I saw an interview with a women attending an illegal church service over Easter in Kansas and the reporter suggesting she was endangering others, she said "I don't care, I'm covered in Jesus' blood"

Here is the clip (not Kansas it was Ohio)

https://crooksandlia...n-she-can-t-get

Fancy debating her

You could say that, that is bordering on stupidity, but that claim as already been awarded to Mexico and Canada

[isleaiw1]

fishini, on 23 April 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

I don't know I was just asking the question. I know someone who had terminal cancer, he died after contracting covid. Now did he die of covid or cancer? I am not trying to be controversial just curious.

Fish, its a very good question and may explain - or may not - the different per capita death rates. They very carefully say when declaring the numbers in the UK that they died with covid-19. Which means that they have been tested and had it but it may not have been primary cause of death.

My wife's death certificate said she died of multiple organ failure. No sh 1 t sherlock. No mention of the underlying problems which caused the first of those failures which created the others in domino effect. She had pneumonia as a side effect of her illness - maybe that killed her. Who knows what they would write in todays world, but it is a very good question to ask.

[azul]

isleaiw1, on 23 April 2020 - 10:15 AM, said:

Fish, its a very good question and may explain - or may not - the different per capita death rates. They very carefully say when declaring the numbers in the UK that they died with covid-19. Which means that they have been tested and had it but it may not have been primary cause of death.

My wife's death certificate said she died of multiple organ failure. No sh 1 t sherlock. No mention of the underlying problems which caused the first of those failures which created the others in domino effect. She had pneumonia as a side effect of her illness - maybe that killed her. Who knows what they would write in todays world, but it is a very good question to ask.

Not sure there should be any confusion with these statistics, but there seems to be....

1. People who die in hospital after testing positive for Corvid-19 (as published by the government daily)
2. People who die outside hospital without a test but have it mentioned on their death certificates (collated by the ONS)

Where the contention is, and I assume this is what you are referring in the 2nd para is the abnormally high level of people passing away for this time of year; which 1 and 2 above don't account for. There is anecdotal evidence that doctors may not mention Covid-19 on death certificates deliberately. In fact it may be more than anecdotal

https://www.dailymai...s-patients.html

There is also growing publicity about people passing away with unrelated illness because they are unwilling or unable to seek help due to Corvid-19

This post has been edited by azul: 23 April 2020 - 11:30 AM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

So a new government mantra emerges.

'Ramping up capacity'.

Okay, the 'guided by science' thing is still live (infact it was hilarious to see Raab resorting to sarcastic accusations of 'knowing better than experts' after SKS'd torn him to shreds at PMQ's yesterday. What, y'mean those same experts your crew's spent four or more years 'knowing better than', Dom?) but as target after target is missed it's the new 'get Brexit done'.

'Come on everyone, let's all ignore the facts and just 'ramp up capacity'.

Either way it was Brandon Lewis touring the studios and largely getting away with that line this morning. Until encountering Piers Morgan and Suzanna Reid, of course.

Morgan: 'So how many people were tested yesterday, Mr Lewis?'

Lewis: 'Well we've capacity for forty thousands and...'

Morgan: 'Sorry minister, but I don't want some random number we've no way of knowing is real or not, I asked how many people were tested yesterday?'

Lewis: 'Well there were twenty two thousand tests done on the last recorded day...'

Morgan: 'Again I'm sorry Mr Lewis, but that's not what I asked. I asked how many people were tested on, if you like, the last day you've a record for?'

Lewis: 'Errr...errr...errr...'.

Morgan: 'Shall I tell you minister?'

Lewis: 'Errr, go on then...'

Morgan: 'Thirteen thousand. Just thirteen thousand. Which itself is bad enough, but what's worse is the representative put forward to answer questions hasn't a clue what it was'.

For what it's worth Bozo promised twenty five thousand 'within days' five weeks ago. Not the 'capacity' to do twenty five thousand, but that many tests. Then as we all know Matt Hancock promised a hundred thousand - A HUNDRED THOUSAND - by the end of April. Seven short days away. Again there was no mention of the 'capacity' to do so.

Oh, and for all his many faults Morgan pointed out that three out of every four care workers wanting a test have yet to have one.

People can pen pink hued posts about those nasty-wasty journalists asking poor wittle politicians awkward questions 'til they're equally as pink in the face. Yet whilstever we've a government meeting what could be the second highest death rate in the world with hollow hubris we need interviewers like Piers Morgan.

[mr. smith]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 April 2020 - 11:54 AM, said:

So a new government mantra emerges.

'Ramping up capacity'.

Okay, the 'guided by science' thing is still live (infact it was hilarious to see Raab resorting to sarcastic accusations of 'knowing better than experts' after SKS'd torn him to shreds at PMQ's yesterday. What, y'mean those same experts your crew's spent four or more years 'knowing better than', Dom?) but as target after target is missed it's the new 'get Brexit done'.

'Come on everyone, let's all ignore the facts and just 'ramp up capacity'.

Either way it was Brandon Lewis touring the studios and largely getting away with that line this morning. Until encountering Piers Morgan and Suzanna Reid, of course.

Morgan: 'So how many people were tested yesterday, Mr Lewis?'

Lewis: 'Well we've capacity for forty thousands and...'

Morgan: 'Sorry minister, but I don't want some random number we've no way of knowing is real or not, I asked how many people were tested yesterday?'

Lewis: 'Well there were twenty two thousand tests done on the last recorded day...'

Morgan: 'Again I'm sorry Mr Lewis, but that's not what I asked. I asked how many people were tested on, if you like, the last day you've a record for?'

Lewis: 'Errr...errr...errr...'.

Morgan: 'Shall I tell you minister?'

Lewis: 'Errr, go on then...'

Morgan: 'Thirteen thousand. Just thirteen thousand. Which itself is bad enough, but what's worse is the representative put forward to answer questions hasn't a clue what it was'.

For what it's worth Bozo promised twenty five thousand 'within days' five weeks ago. Not the 'capacity' to do twenty five thousand, but that many tests. Then as we all know Matt Hancock promised a hundred thousand - A HUNDRED THOUSAND - by the end of April. Seven short days away. Again there was no mention of the 'capacity' to do so.

Oh, and for all his many faults Morgan pointed out that three out of every four care workers wanting a test have yet to have one.

People can pen pink hued posts about those nasty-wasty journalists asking poor wittle politicians awkward questions 'til they're equally as pink in the face. Yet whilstever we've a government meeting what could be the second highest death rate in the world with hollow hubris we need interviewers like Piers Morgan.

we are in a strange through the looking glass world when piers morgan is skewering the govt & is the voice of the nation.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

mr. smith, on 23 April 2020 - 11:59 AM, said:

we are in a strange through the looking glass world when piers morgan is skewering the govt & is the voice of the nation.

I think it'd be as wrong to say his finger's on the public pulse as anyone else's.

It's just refreshing to see someone properly pursue an answer to a question...

[isleaiw1]

azul, on 23 April 2020 - 11:10 AM, said:

Not sure there should be any confusion with these statistics, but there seems to be....

1. People who die in hospital after testing positive for Corvid-19 (as published by the government daily)
2. People who die outside hospital without a test but have it mentioned on their death certificates (collated by the ONS)

Where the contention is, and I assume this is what you are referring in the 2nd para is the abnormally high level of people passing away for this time of year; which 1 and 2 above don't account for. There is anecdotal evidence that doctors may not mention Covid-19 on death certificates deliberately. In fact it may be more than anecdotal

https://www.dailymai...s-patients.html

There is also growing publicity about people passing away with unrelated illness because they are unwilling or unable to seek help due to Corvid-19

I was commenting on the point that you can have it and not die from it. And I assume a doctor can only mention covid-19 on the death cert if they can categorically say they have it - which if you die outside of hospital and havent been tested would be a challenge.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

azul, on 22 April 2020 - 02:52 PM, said:

Well done Matt Hancock - testing and contact tracing up and running ‘in weeks’

Admittedly that is pretty vague, testing one person positive and finding his contacts would meet that statement but I’m sure he was well intentioned.

Hopefully someone has told him that this, yet to be met testing target is not enough and that he is already sorting the thousands of skilled tracers that will be required. The cynic in me worries that someone in the shadows is setting him up as a scapegoat

You were saying...

https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartanntp

[clarevoyant.]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 April 2020 - 11:54 AM, said:

For what Seven short days away. Again there was no mention of the 'capacity' to do so.

I'm always in awe of your linguistic excellence and you now have me marvelling at your ability to amend the length of a day
I hope in acouple of years or so on reaching 60 you will think hang on a minute and accede to putting this process in reverse.

[azul]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 April 2020 - 12:13 PM, said:

You were saying...

https://www.msn.com/...ocid=spartanntp

It would be funny if it wasn’t so serious. Is there a superlative for dysfunctional government?

I can think of one!

This post has been edited by azul: 23 April 2020 - 12:35 PM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Search and Destroy, on 22 April 2020 - 01:22 PM, said:

Maybe the whole truth of what. could happen is to terrible to contemplate, we all sort of know what could happen, but a public declaration could cause panic

Matt Hancock could say this afternoon
Lockdown could last 2 years
We could have 250k deaths
Many business will close
No schools back till October
No cure in sight
10% unemployment
Not enough NHS capacity
Doctors will decide who gets a ventilator

All could happen, that’s the truth but should he say that?

But hold on a minute - Brexiters have spent the last four years sneering at anyone suggesting the British people were conned, that they were incapable of telling fact from fiction.

Yet here you are saying they can't handle the truth? They're too stupid to process all the information? They'd 'panic'?

Infact you sound like a member of some 'metropolitan elite' talking down to others...

[fishini]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 April 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

But hold on a minute - Brexiters have spent the last four years sneering at anyone suggesting the British people were conned, that they were incapable of telling fact from fiction.

Yet here you are saying they can't handle the truth? They're too stupid to process all the information? They'd 'panic'?

Infact you sound like a member of some 'metropolitan elite' talking down to others...

But it is SD you are talking about.

[Search & Destroy]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 April 2020 - 02:48 PM, said:

But hold on a minute - Brexiters have spent the last four years sneering at anyone suggesting the British people were conned, that they were incapable of telling fact from fiction.

Yet here you are saying they can't handle the truth? They're too stupid to process all the information? They'd 'panic'?

Infact you sound like a member of some 'metropolitan elite' talking down to others...

Blimey I take my hat off to you for managing to switch that to Brexit chat

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 23 April 2020 - 06:13 AM, said:

Wow.

If true - and let's be clear it's only an extrapolation no matter how legitimate - that puts us second to only Trump's America in fatalities.

No wonder there's a 'lag' in declaring numbers (okay, anecdotal I know, but heard the relative of a nursing home corona victim saying their test results were inexplicably 'delayed' on radio the other day - the bloke was a bobby, too!).

I wondered if this government had been inspired in their casual approach on my first contribution to this thread. Unfortunately the opposite's being proven with each passing day...

Genuine question for anyone to answer re the point that we could be second only to the USA in fatalities. Why is it assumed that all the other countries are reporting genuine figures and not that they themselves are under reporting due to the way they count the numbers?