[isleaiw1]

joe, on 18 April 2020 - 03:36 AM, said:

You clearly stated as "evidence" of enough nurses to open Nightingale hospital that there had been training courses. I think I've asked you twice now how many people were being trained, which group were being trained and what to do. I also asked you your personal opinion of why you think intensive care staff are working 12 hour shifts when there are nurses who are "soon upto speed". I'll add another - who was the lead consultant who claimed that we had not reached capacity for ventilators when there have been requests to Nightingale to take patients but being refused on the grounds that they can only take patients who only need ventilating and have no underlying health issues. Answer these questions and I'll continue the conversation.
I am desperately hoping Nightingale will go on stream but I have great doubts. Unfortunately the deaths and associated misery are too much for me. I am no lefty but I am intelligent. It doesn't take too much intelligence to realise this government has made this crisis into an appalling disaster. Why have other countries been so much better at handling the crisis ? Why haven't we tested when the WHO recommended " test, test test"? Why did we reject the offer of a joint purchase of PPE with the EU? It seems like this government are predominantly a group of upper class bumbling buffoons who even the Daily Mail are finding it difficult to support. You may be the only one left soon.
Some good news though v belated is that I know of an ex A/E consultant who has taken a job at Nightingale Birmingham and I spoke to a friend last night who volunteered at government request but he his awaiting RCB testing.

Nightingale is open. London ICU beds are not full though. My information comes from a senior official in London incident mgt procedures (as our hotel at Tower bridge is on standby to take staff at Nightingale). I also am friends with a consultant in ICU at Leicester infirmary. Also not at capacity yet and says the lockdown is working. And he hates the Tories! Nightingale will not be a normal ICU - it has a specific purpose, they will have to balance who goes where, but at least we have an option. What would you do - and remember hindsight is great. As for EU PPE order, aren’t EU countries trying to take each other’s anyway. Don’t see that being particularly successful but who knows, they may get that bit right.

I don’t support the govt. I do think it’s easy to sit in your chair saying how they should do it differently when you don’t have to make a decision.

But please don’t continue the conversation, negative, criticism, complaining never got anyone further forward. It’s a crisis, we need leaders not snipers. I expect there will be lots of people on here standing up and putting themselves forward to make a difference post this event as they know so much better.

Me, I am trying to keep a business afloat that is getting through cash at £4m a week even with all that the govt has done. We will put in our first furlough claim (for March) next week which might help, but 1500 people depend on us getting it right...

[Westbars Spireite]

isleaiw1, on 18 April 2020 - 11:04 AM, said:

Nightingale is open. London ICU beds are not full though. My information comes from a senior official in London incident mgt procedures (as our hotel at Tower bridge is on standby to take staff at Nightingale). I also am friends with a consultant in ICU at Leicester infirmary. Also not at capacity yet and says the lockdown is working. And he hates the Tories! Nightingale will not be a normal ICU - it has a specific purpose, they will have to balance who goes where, but at least we have an option. What would you do - and remember hindsight is great. As for EU PPE order, aren’t EU countries trying to take each other’s anyway. Don’t see that being particularly successful but who knows, they may get that bit right.

I don’t support the govt. I do think it’s easy to sit in your chair saying how they should do it differently when you don’t have to make a decision.

But please don’t continue the conversation, negative, criticism, complaining never got anyone further forward. It’s a crisis, we need leaders not snipers. I expect there will be lots of people on here standing up and putting themselves forward to make a difference post this event as they know so much better.

Me, I am trying to keep a business afloat that is getting through cash at £4m a week even with all that the govt has done. We will put in our first furlough claim (for March) next week which might help, but 1500 people depend on us getting it right...

£4m a week seeks a lot for 9 hotels.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 18 April 2020 - 09:17 AM, said:

Without wishing to resort to hysteria but you can see some sort of social breakdown coming in the more, shall we say, rustic parts of the states if this caries on much longer!

As was said pretty early on in this you can't shoot a virus. You can't lie to a virus. You can't use racism and xenophobia against a virus. You can't subvert the law or break promises or accuse a virus of fake news.

You can't rely on Russian interference to defeat a virus.

So all Trump has left is denial and diversion. The Chinese, the WHO, the Democrats, the EU, Cuomo...and now the spoilt brat who casually courts KKK support is using the gullible to ferment chaos in his own, his OWN country.

I'm all for targeting regimes responsible for disgusting behaviour. And surely Trump's must be pretty near top of that list...

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 18 April 2020 - 11:29 AM, said:

As was said pretty early on in this you can't shoot a virus. You can't lie to a virus. You can't use racism and xenophobia against a virus. You can't subvert the law or break promises or accuse a virus of fake news.

You can't rely on Russian interference to defeat a virus.

So all Trump has left is denial and diversion. The Chinese, the WHO, the Democrats, the EU, Cuomo...and now the spoilt brat who casually courts KKK support is using the gullible to ferment chaos in his own, his OWN country.

I'm all for targeting regimes responsible for disgusting behaviour. And surely Trump's must be pretty near top of that list...

Your right that Trump is being made to look what he is, clueless, over the virus, and with some of his recent rhetoric, downright reckless, with law and order in his country, but I still think the Chinese, and in part the WHO, are far more complicit in this becoming the Worldwide disaster that it is.

This post has been edited by Mr Mercury: 18 April 2020 - 12:39 PM

[Westbars Spireite]

Westbars Spireite, on 18 April 2020 - 11:20 AM, said:

£4m a week seeks a lot for 9 hotels.

Seems. Stupid auto correct.

[fishini]

Mr Mercury, on 18 April 2020 - 12:38 PM, said:

Your right that Trump is being made to look what he is, clueless, over the virus, and with some of his recent rhetoric, downright reckless, with law and order in his country, but I still think the Chinese, and in part the WHO, are far more complicit in this becoming the Worldwide disaster that it is.

Where I agree with you, I do believe most countries would try to keep something like this in house and shut it down at source before informing the rest of the world. A misguided sense of national pride

[Mr Mercury]

fishini, on 18 April 2020 - 12:59 PM, said:

Where I agree with you, I do believe most countries would try to keep something like this in house and shut it down at source before informing the rest of the world. A misguided sense of national pride

A intensively secretive country with some disgusting and downright dangerous methods of animal husbandry and diet with a history of being the hotbed for many previous virus outbreaks was always going to be a bad combination!

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 18 April 2020 - 12:38 PM, said:

Your right that Trump is being made to look what he is, clueless, over the virus, and with some of his recent rhetoric, downright reckless, with law and order in his country, but I still think the Chinese, and in part the WHO, are far more complicit in this becoming the Worldwide disaster that it is.

I'd like to know exactly what folk think the WHO have done wrong, my friend.

And that's a genuine question, not some sort of provocation or taunt.

Because whilst it's very likely the Chinese supressed the truth for quite some time the WHO could only issue guidelines based upon that limited information.

Then when the Chinese placed hundreds of millions under lockdown the WHO altered it's stance accordingly and advised 'Test! Test! Test!'.

Advice which has proven crucial in saving countless lives.

Since then nothing I've seen of the WHO has appeared political. Infact they're the very epitome of an apolitical institution being used as the proverbial political football. They even met Trump's petulant teenager style tantrums with measured diplomacy.

Be interesting to see how those currently excusing Johnson's mob with 'No one could've prepared/guided by experts/let's not politicise this' statements judge a body of whom exactly that can be said, too...

[isleaiw1]

Westbars Spireite, on 18 April 2020 - 12:56 PM, said:

Seems. Stupid auto correct.

17 hotels. Rent is a killer. As is staff costs until furlough monies come in. And even then we have to keep some staff on as they are securing / maintaining the properties... did you know every tap has to be run for 5 mins at least once a week to prevent legionella? And every bog flushed. Insurance will only cover 60 days of buildings empty before we have to put special security measures in place. Ah insurance, £1.6m a year and just renewed so if we finance it rather than pay up front (at 6% APR - thanks finance co!) it’s about £150k a month on its own...

Central London rents are the thing though. £27m for 2 properties, 1500 rooms....

[azul]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 18 April 2020 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'd like to know exactly what folk think the WHO have done wrong, my friend.

And that's a genuine question, not some sort of provocation or taunt.

Because whilst it's very likely the Chinese supressed the truth for quite some time the WHO could only issue guidelines based upon that limited information.

Then when the Chinese placed hundreds of millions under lockdown the WHO altered it's stance accordingly and advised 'Test! Test! Test!'.

Advice which has proven crucial in saving countless lives.

Since then nothing I've seen of the WHO has appeared political. Infact they're the very epitome of an apolitical institution being used as the proverbial political football. They even met Trump's petulant teenager style tantrums with measured diplomacy.

Be interesting to see how those currently excusing Johnson's mob with 'No one could've prepared/guided by experts/let's not politicise this' statements judge a body of whom exactly that can be said, too...

They are caught in a geopolitical power play between the economic superpowers and it is convenient for Trump to scapegoat them - anyone

However, I can think of a few things WHO can be criticised for....

They were informed by China at the end off December (beginning of Jan) and it wasn’t until mid January they confirmed person to person infection - looking at the news back then it looked pretty obvious

They fail to give Taiwan the credit they’re due - again that’s geopolitics - no UN member states recognise Taiwan and the WHO are a UN organisation - they still have unofficial working relationships just like every other country that doesn’t recognise them. In fact Taiwan had started monitoring people arriving from Wuhan in late December so there was some contact going on. I have seen estimates that there are between 500K and 800K Taiwanese working in China

They delayed calling it a global pandemic even though it was obvious that there was community spread in many countries - not sure what practical difference that would make

WHO are only as good as the member states that support them

[Search & Destroy]

They publicly stated it was unlikely that there could be human transmission (imagine in Johnson’s mob had done that)

They publicly stated they saw no reason to close borders (Johnson’s mob were criticised for not doing that )

Oh, and in2018 they acknowledged that Tradition Chinese Medicine was credible which raised suspicion at the time of China’s influence over them

But of course if you are so rabidly anti Trump you are never going to find fault them

This post has been edited by Search and Destroy: 18 April 2020 - 03:36 PM

[Mr Mercury]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 18 April 2020 - 01:34 PM, said:

I'd like to know exactly what folk think the WHO have done wrong, my friend.

And that's a genuine question, not some sort of provocation or taunt.

Because whilst it's very likely the Chinese supressed the truth for quite some time the WHO could only issue guidelines based upon that limited information.

Then when the Chinese placed hundreds of millions under lockdown the WHO altered it's stance accordingly and advised 'Test! Test! Test!'.

Advice which has proven crucial in saving countless lives.

Since then nothing I've seen of the WHO has appeared political. Infact they're the very epitome of an apolitical institution being used as the proverbial political football. They even met Trump's petulant teenager style tantrums with measured diplomacy.

Be interesting to see how those currently excusing Johnson's mob with 'No one could've prepared/guided by experts/let's not politicise this' statements judge a body of whom exactly that can be said, too...

I think praising China for its handling of the crisis when some reports state they knew about this as early as October, praying the honesty regarding the figures when even the most reticent reporters cast doubt on them, some intellegance claiming they might be under reporting by as much as 40-1 re deaths. Failing to encourage the Chinese to stop the wet markets which even without the virus are disgusting places for animal welfare, it just seems a convenient marriage of China and the WHO regarding the initial coverage of this. I'm not sure the Chinese will learn lessons from this but the rest of the world just might.

[azul]

Mr Mercury, on 18 April 2020 - 03:37 PM, said:

I think praising China for its handling of the crisis when some reports state they knew about this as early as October, praying the honesty regarding the figures when even the most reticent reporters cast doubt on them, some intellegance claiming they might be under reporting by as much as 40-1 re deaths. Failing to encourage the Chinese to stop the wet markets which even without the virus are disgusting places for animal welfare, it just seems a convenient marriage of China and the WHO regarding the initial coverage of this. I'm not sure the Chinese will learn lessons from this but the rest of the world just might.

I have seen some vague CIA references regarding intercepts in November but never October. Have you got the link?

This post has been edited by azul: 18 April 2020 - 04:11 PM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Search and Destroy, on 18 April 2020 - 03:34 PM, said:

They publicly stated it was unlikely that there could be human transmission (imagine in Johnson’s mob had done that)

They publicly stated they saw no reason to close borders (Johnson’s mob were criticised for not doing that )

Oh, and in2018 they acknowledged that Tradition Chinese Medicine was credible which raised suspicion at the time of China’s influence over them

But of course if you are so rabidly anti Trump you are never going to find fault them

So they got it wrong based upon initial, and quite probably inaccurate information of an entirely new virus.

Okay, fair criticism.

But you don't need to be 'rabidly anti-Trump', or anti-Johnson either, to recognise that both had months more to investigate and act. And based upon altered WHO advice which has since saved countless lives elsewhere.

Something increasing numbers of British professionals are now admitting.

As for the disgusting treatment of wildlife in the far east and beyond, let's remember the 'Leave' lobby were championing China as a potential trade partner back in 2018. As they'd done in 2017. And 2016. And did again in 2019. So were there no wet markets then? Had SARS not emerged in that part of the world?

I'd remind you that Chinese steel built Trump Towers, too.

I'll say it again: all I'm seeing is an apolitical organisation forced to play diplomatic games given their worldwide funding sources yet being scapegoated by hypocrites. Including the biggest hypocrite of them all.

[Mr Mercury]

azul, on 18 April 2020 - 04:05 PM, said:

I have seen some vague CIA references regarding intercepts in November but never October. Have you got the link?

https://www.vox.com/...early-on-lancet

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 18 April 2020 - 03:37 PM, said:

I think praising China for its handling of the crisis when some reports state they knew about this as early as October, praying the honesty regarding the figures when even the most reticent reporters cast doubt on them, some intellegance claiming they might be under reporting by as much as 40-1 re deaths. Failing to encourage the Chinese to stop the wet markets which even without the virus are disgusting places for animal welfare, it just seems a convenient marriage of China and the WHO regarding the initial coverage of this. I'm not sure the Chinese will learn lessons from this but the rest of the world just might.

As said to our friend 'S&D' it pretty much boils down to 'Not being tough enough on China', then.

Though many might think their diplomatic response to Trump's adolescent tantrums isn't being tough enough on him, either.

I think we all agree - including the WHO even if they can't say it because they've gotta walk an apolitical tightrope - the Chinese have supressed both the truth and those stating it. As always. Summat that's probably cost numerous lives in their own and other countries.

But I don't think we should take any lessons in criticising China from folk who've spent years touting them as trade partners, doing trade with them themselves, or have all too obvious reasons to search for scapegoats, pal.

[Wooden Spoon]

The Earl of Chesterfield said:

1587228408[/url]' post='1515021']
I'll say it again: all I'm seeing is an apolitical organisation forced to play diplomatic games given their worldwide funding sources yet being scapegoated by hypocrites. Including the biggest hypocrite of them all.

Fair comment that.

[azul]

Mr Mercury, on 18 April 2020 - 04:51 PM, said:

https://www.vox.com/...early-on-lancet

Firstly, that is an interesting and informed article as you’d expect as it is based on Lancet investigations

I’m not sure that article supports your accusations/suspicions of wrongdoings over and above what we already know. The first known person (index case) was known to fall ill at the start of December and as reported the coverup started in mid/late December with the Chinese whistleblower(s) being silenced. The timeline is well known from there, informing WHO and Taiwan, delays in recognising/admitting human to human transmission and eventual lockdown. I don’t think that part of the timeline is disputed so I won’t labour the point.

The whole premise is that people falling ill in early December had no direct contact with the Market and hence they extrapolated backwards as far as October to what might have been the initial infection. It’s an interesting theory but that is all it is at present. Also add on that Lancet seems to have used information, I guess supplied by the Chinese because some information, names of families, etc. suggest some openness.

The summary in the article was pretty inconclusive

[Mr Mercury]

azul, on 18 April 2020 - 06:22 PM, said:

Firstly, that is an interesting and informed article as you’d expect as it is based on Lancet investigations

I’m not sure that article supports your accusations/suspicions of wrongdoings over and above what we already know. The first known person (index case) was known to fall ill at the start of December and as reported the coverup started in mid/late December with the Chinese whistleblower(s) being silenced. The timeline is well known from there, informing WHO and Taiwan, delays in recognising/admitting human to human transmission and eventual lockdown. I don’t think that part of the timeline is disputed so I won’t labour the point.

The whole premise is that people falling ill in early December had no direct contact with the Market and hence they extrapolated backwards as far as October to what might have been the initial infection. It’s an interesting theory but that is all it is at present. Also add on that Lancet seems to have used information, I guess supplied by the Chinese because some information, names of families, etc. suggest some openness.

The summary in the article was pretty inconclusive

Firstly I didn't give the red, not my scene, so I've evened it up. Secondly I agree it's all up in the air and second guessing I imagine we will never know the real truth. It's obvious the Chinese wouldn't give real figures or dates but have they covered it up to that extent?, maybe, maybe not.

This post has been edited by Mr Mercury: 18 April 2020 - 06:48 PM

[azul]

Mr Mercury, on 18 April 2020 - 06:47 PM, said:

Firstly I didn't give the red, not my scene, so I've evened it up. Secondly I agree it's all up in the air and second guessing I imagine we will never know the real truth. It's obvious the Chinese wouldn't give real figures or dates but have they covered it up to that extent?, maybe, maybe not.

It’s obviously someone who never bothered reading the article or my reply

I thought the summary in that article summed it up quite nicely