[isleaiw1]

azul, on 14 April 2020 - 03:52 PM, said:

Maybe aye, maybes no

The report did suggest that each individual country submitted their order and the EU would procure it in one go, therefore getting a better deal. Our resident businessman should be able to confirm the advantage of the ‘economy of scale’

There was no suggestion that it was to be centrally funded, otherwise we’d be in for our share.

There is no such thing as economies of scale when supply is restricted and demand through the roof, any attempt at negotiating would just have moved next country up the queue....

[isleaiw1]

azul, on 14 April 2020 - 04:47 PM, said:

I think you have answered you’re own question

Or do you think it will Rees-Mogg’s Investment Company?

Nope, nor the builders who didnt declare half their income in prior years, have got sod all from self employed support as a result and so declare even less later this year...

It will be middle england - those on a decent salary but no rich enough to be able to engage in tax avoidance (that's the legal version versus tax evasion used above...)

[azul]

isleaiw1, on 14 April 2020 - 06:31 PM, said:

Nope, nor the builders who didnt declare half their income in prior years, have got sod all from self employed support as a result and so declare even less later this year...

It will be middle england - those on a decent salary but no rich enough to be able to engage in tax avoidance (that's the legal version versus tax evasion used above...)

Don’t know why you’ve brought up builders? Did one do some dodgy work? They are bound to suffer if middle England suffers

You might be right about Middle England types but it’ll be the low paid ‘critical workforce’ who’ll take the brunt

Glad you agree Mogg won’t suffer - he’ll be coining it in amongst the chaos

This post has been edited by azul: 14 April 2020 - 06:58 PM

[azul]

isleaiw1, on 14 April 2020 - 06:28 PM, said:

There is no such thing as economies of scale when supply is restricted and demand through the roof, any attempt at negotiating would just have moved next country up the queue....

I guess it depends if you want to sell billions to big customers or sell to millions to a load of smaller customers

I’d know which customer I’d want to be

This post has been edited by azul: 14 April 2020 - 07:07 PM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Search and Destroy, on 14 April 2020 - 06:03 PM, said:

Of course it’s hindsight when reacting to a post saying the Nightingale Hospitals haven’t been used and the money could have been better spent elsewhere

Yes we have always been 10 days behind Italy and as it stands we have just over half as many deaths at 11000, tens days ago on the 4th April Italy were at 15000 so we are doing better in that respect

I don’t disagree that a ban on mass gatherings should have come earlier, but I’m no virologist and the scientists said herd immunity was the way to go (before quickly changing their minds)

How do other countries count care home deaths?

Coronavirus: the week explained - sign up for our email newsletter
Read more
We cannot directly compare care home deaths in the UK with those in other countries as there are a range of different ways of recording these deaths.

In Ireland, France and Germany, official data on deaths includes those in care settings. Of Irish deaths which occurred up until 11 April, 54% had occurred in care homes, according to the country’s chief medical officer. Figures released by the French public health authority show 45% of deaths took place in care homes.

Italy and Spain by contrast do not report deaths in care settings regularly. In Italy, best estimates were based on a survey of 10% of care homes in the country. The death rate in this sample was extrapolated to reach an estimate for all care homes, which suggests 53% of coronavirus deaths were happening in care. In Spain, estimates based on regional totals submitted to the government also suggest those in nursing homes accounted for more than half of deaths.

Italy and Spain report the same as us, comparing us with China....borderline pathetic

Your accusation of folk using hindsight was in response to a general point by our friend 'Mr M'. But if you were just on about the Nightingale thing fair enough.

You can't really say we're doing better than Italy whilst also saying there're different measuring methods, though (not being some snidey pedant or owt, but where's this 'week explained' thing from? I'm on a tablet so can't see any reference and we both know there're some so called factcheckers that're anything but). Besides, it's journalists from the Murdoch media who're questioning the comparisons, not just suspicious old cynics like me. Pretty sure we have the highest daily death rates, too.

Then was it the scientists or the government that changed their minds? Because what usually happens is politicians are offered a selection of policy v outcome choices with public reaction prominent in their decision making. Either way no one can deny the 'guided by science' mantra whenever hubris becomes evasion.

As for comparing 'us' with China I've a very simple attitude: a liar's a liar regardless of race. And 'borderline pathetic' is vilifying one whilst exonerating another...

[spireiterob]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 14 April 2020 - 02:19 PM, said:

This.

The Cheltenham festival is simply a symbol of this government's complacency. Or perhaps even the 'herd immunity' approach there's evidence of them contemplating.

I'm sure many in Europe looked on with the same incredulity with which we viewed Belarussian football matches after our lockdown...

( https://bylinetimes....navirus-crisis/ )

12 March 2020: Addressing the “question of banning major public events such as sporting fixtures” the Prime Minister says “The scientific advice as we’ve said over the last couple of weeks is that banning such events will have little effect on the spread” (Prime Minister’s Office, 10 Downing Street).

Be interesting to see the evidence of this advice they received and who gave it to them, particularly given as you say that 99% of countries had already banned it. Can you imagine going to one of these events at the moment? You would have to be off your rocker. Given that we are standing 2m apart and in lockdown and the number of cases has 'flattened' there is no doubt that events like this at that time spread it around the country. I saw a fella from Barnsley in his 50's a friend knows who went there that has since tragically died from it, whether he caught it there we will never know, but imagine the spread all around the four corners of the country would certainly not have been helped with knock on effects.

I have no doubt that in my opinion they were pursuing a herd immunity plan at the time of Cheltenham, and still are to a certain extent.

https://www.bbc.co.u...merset-52217868

Know first hand of a relatively young individual with learning disabilities just last week whom would have always been medically classed as lacking capacity to make such a decision with suspected Coronavirus placed on a DNR order without their families consent.

I can imagine across the country there is many cases of this. Criminal.

Added to the carehomes being asked to accept elderly corona positive individuals akin to a pallative care situation.

https://www.thenorth...nts-care-homes/

Why can they not be treated (and possibly cured) in the nightingale hospitals if we have so much capacity? Why would they increase the risk of those in the homes catching it? It is interesting that the no doubt tragic figures are left out of the briefings. I was reading of a care home in Selston that has sadly lost 9 dementia patients so far.

This post has been edited by spireiterob: 14 April 2020 - 07:08 PM

[azul]

spireiterob, on 14 April 2020 - 07:07 PM, said:

( https://bylinetimes....navirus-crisis/ )

12 March 2020: Addressing the “question of banning major public events such as sporting fixtures” the Prime Minister says “The scientific advice as we’ve said over the last couple of weeks is that banning such events will have little effect on the spread” (Prime Minister’s Office, 10 Downing Street).

Be interesting to see the evidence of this advice they received and who gave it to them, particularly given as you say that 99% of countries had already banned it. Can you imagine going to one of these events at the moment? You would have to be off your rocker. Given that we are standing 2m apart and in lockdown and the number of cases has 'flattened' there is no doubt that events like this at that time spread it around the country. I saw a fella from Barnsley in his 50's a friend knows who went there that has since tragically died from it, whether he caught it there we will never know, but imagine the spread all around the four corners of the country would certainly not have been helped with knock on effects.

I have no doubt that in my opinion they were pursuing a herd immunity plan at the time of Cheltenham, and still are to a certain extent.

https://www.bbc.co.u...merset-52217868

Know first hand of a relatively young individual with learning disabilities just last week whom would have always been medically classed as lacking capacity to make such a decision with suspected Coronavirus placed on a DNR order without their families consent.

I can imagine across the country there is many cases of this. Criminal.

Added to the carehomes being asked to accept elderly corona positive individuals akin to a pallative care situation.

https://www.thenorth...nts-care-homes/

Why can they not be treated (and possibly cured) in the nightingale hospitals if we have so much capacity? Why would they increase the risk of those in the homes catching it? It is interesting that the no doubt tragic figures are left out of the briefings. I was reading of a care home in Selston that has sadly lost 9 dementia patients so far.

That final such a good point, great post.

I was watching C4 News on a similar subject and there a good report on older Covid patients being dispatched to care homes. The care homes had to accept them and the danger.

No government spokesperson was available (I think C4 said for the eight night on the row)

Why not use these mega facilities to give what might just be palliative care in the end. Is it because there’s not enough trained medical staff, not enough PPE or just because this facility is too visible.

I think C4 news is on catchup

This post has been edited by azul: 14 April 2020 - 07:46 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

azul said:

1586879569[/url]' post='1514415']
Our resident businessman should be able to confirm the advantage of the 'economy of scale'

isleaiw1 said:

1586888912[/url]' post='1514447']
There is no such thing as economies of scale when supply is restricted and demand through the roof, any attempt at negotiating would just have moved next country up the queue....

[Wooden Spoon]

https://www.bbc.co.u...canada-52276004





The mans astonishing

[azul]

DEATH, on 14 April 2020 - 07:59 PM, said:

Think I replied to him a few posts up - you haven’t added anything

Sorry, but I just couldn’t reply to that post of yours, your quotes seem to disappear.

Why don’t you do something about all that white space?

This post has been edited by azul: 14 April 2020 - 08:22 PM

[azul]

Deleted

This post has been edited by azul: 14 April 2020 - 08:21 PM

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

DEATH, on 14 April 2020 - 08:06 PM, said:

https://www.bbc.co.u...canada-52276004





The mans astonishing

Fake news.

Probably from China.

[azul]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 14 April 2020 - 08:32 PM, said:

Fake news.

Probably from China.

Agreed

He’s a model of respectability and sobriety. His response has been perfect, beautiful and A1. He’s just a target for some opportunistic deadbeat lefties

[Wooden Spoon]

azul said:

1586890880[/url]' post='1514455']
I guess it depends if you want to sell billions to big customers or sell to millions to a load of smaller customers

I'd know which customer I'd want to be

The customer that meets the asking price when there are shortages gets the goods. Haggle over price and someone steps in who won’t haggle, just pay.




The one who haggles, or the the one who leaves with his goods?



I know which customer I’d want to be.

[Wooden Spoon]

The Earl of Chesterfield said:

1586896355[/url]' post='1514467']
Fake news.

Probably from China.

Not just fake news, but entire news organisations are fake now.

[azul]

DEATH, on 14 April 2020 - 08:58 PM, said:

The customer that meets the asking price when there are shortages gets the goods. Haggle over price and someone steps in who won’t haggle, just pay. The one who haggles, or the the one who leaves with his goods?
I know which customer I’d want to be.

I’ve used Ebay too

All we need is a 10,000 hagglers to out haggle the USA

This post has been edited by azul: 14 April 2020 - 09:16 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

azul said:

1586898915[/url]' post='1514476']
I've used Ebay too

Brilliant isn’t it.

[Wooden Spoon]

This will be the litmus test for Johnson. The traditional barometer of Tory success or failure.





https://www.bbc.co.u...siness-52279871






The public won’t forget if they punish public sector workers with austerity as they did a decade ago.






We’re watching Boris.

[joe]

isleaiw1, on 14 April 2020 - 09:40 AM, said:

A good friend is an NHS sister, two of my daughters friends work in hospitals. They can get them up to the speed they need, as its not "normal" intensive care currently. The retired people will be brought in to free up people to be trained.

How about you find a solution not a criticism, anybody can do that bit...?

Who is going to get them up to speed ? I don't know wether you noticed but Boris personally thanked and named 2 nurses for giving him 24 hour care. With simple mathematics you might be able to work out that most Intensive care staff are working flat out and doing 12 hours on and 12 hours off shifts. If there were spare staff then get them in now to relieve those working 12 hour shifts, fill your hotels. Where are all these extra staff coming from to staff these Nightingale Hospitals. Why haven't nurses been brought upto speed ? Why haven't retired people been brought in to fill the gaps that are obviously already there.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

DEATH, on 14 April 2020 - 09:51 PM, said:

This will be the litmus test for Johnson. The traditional barometer of Tory success or failure.





https://www.bbc.co.u...siness-52279871






The public won’t forget if they punish public sector workers with austerity as they did a decade ago.






We’re watching Boris.

For all their complacency, incompetence and false claims in other areas I applaud the government's financial support.

But you're right - how we pay for it will be key.

Ten years ago the tories weaponised the worldwide financial crisis. Instead of blaming their friends in the City - and bearing in mind Cameron had himself called for fewer regulations - they dubbed it 'Labour's recession'. Before implementing largely ideological austerity whilst handing tax cuts to millionaires (as Alexei Sayle told us 'the banks didn't crash because there were too many libraries in Wolverhampton').

I'm prepared to extend my thursday evening support to my wage packet. If it takes an extra tenner a week for properly funded public services so be it. Or twenty. Or even thirty. Let's see how many of those who clap their hands for the NHS are also prepared to put them in their pockets...