[The Earl of Chesterfield]

DEATH, on 30 March 2020 - 05:06 PM, said:

You don’t think trying to keep people employed, keeping food on people’s table and money in the pocket, or the new nightingale hospitals are steps that have been taken of which we should applaud or be proud?




Have you been sniffing poppies?

Don't see any contradiction between acknowledging what our friend 'S&D' says and recognising what our many friends in public service are also saying, pal.

The government HAVE ensured large sections of society will get help. They HAVE supported the economy. They HAVE initiated a widespread response.

And whilst I oppose his politics and dislike how he obtained the job Sunak has shown a clarity of message missing amongst many of his colleagues.

However there's been hubris, hypocrisy and reaction rather than proaction on the government's part, too. Whilst we simply cannot divorce ten years of public service cuts from the current crisis. Or the fact frontline staff are STILL short of essential gear.

As said elsewhere a precedent's been set, though. Johnson and Co have admitted, albeit indirectly, how priceless properly funded infrastructure really is. Not to mention directly contradicting Thatcher's 'There is no society' this very morning.

If there's to be one positive from this pandemic let it be those prioritising tax cuts over public investment are never listened to again.

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 30 March 2020 - 08:01 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

The Earl of Chesterfield said:

1585598181[/url]' post='1513047']
Don't see any contradiction between acknowledging what our friend 'S&D' says and recognising what our many friends in public service are also saying, pal.

The government HAVE ensured large sections of society will get help. They HAVE supported the economy. They HAVE initiated a widespread response.

And whilst I oppose his politics and dislike how he obtained the job Sunak has shown a clarity of message missing amongst many of his colleagues.

However there's been hubris, hypocrisy and reaction rather than proaction on the government's part, too. Whilst we simply cannot divorce ten years of public service cuts from the current crisis. Or the fact frontline staff are STILL short of essential gear.

As said elsewhere a precedent's been set, though. Johnson and Co have admitted, albeit indirectly, how priceless properly funded infrastructure really is. Not to mention directly contradicting Thatcher's 'There is no society' this very morning.

If there's to be one positive from this pandemic let it be those prioritising tax cuts over public investment are never listened to again.

S+D has spoken a lot of sense on this thread, rather than his usual wind up stuff. As have most other contributors.


I think it’s fair to say that more could have been done, Certainly autoclave sealed medical PPE and equipment can be stored for many many months so the shortage of current supplies ought to be addressed and have a longer term view. Maybe this crisis will make the tories review their ideological perception of the NHS and how they want to integrate the private sector. However, under the circumstances I also think the government have handled it very well, and if were gonna criticise, we should also give praise where it’s due. As most contributors have recognised.



P.S. my post was in reply to CPS, who seems to be living in a different country to the rest of us.








P.P.S. Agreed about Sunak, I’ve been very impressed with him. Calm, clear message with action taken.

dim view said:

1585597403[/url]' post='1513045']
presumably, one positive result of this situation is that the country will be able to sterilise and mothball tens of thousands of relatively simple ventilators, which may well be a common feature in the treatment of all viral pandemics.

These positive air flow things look like being a great idea going forward.

[Wooden Spoon]

P.P.P.S


I also hope that after this, any austerity measure are not targeted to public sector employees who are, right now, doing the country proud. On a par with 1940 - never have many, owed so much to so few.



The burden needs to be fairly distributed. No tax cuts for the highest earners while others suffer pay freezes. No, pay rises for our public sector heroes. They deserve it.

[calvin plummers socks]

DEATH, on 30 March 2020 - 08:39 PM, said:

S+D has spoken a lot of sense on this thread, rather than his usual wind up stuff. As have most other contributors.


I think it’s fair to say that more could have been done, Certainly autoclave sealed medical PPE and equipment can be stored for many many months so the shortage of current supplies ought to be addressed and have a longer term view. Maybe this crisis will make the tories review their ideological perception of the NHS and how they want to integrate the private sector. However, under the circumstances I also think the government have handled it very well, and if were gonna criticise, we should also give praise where it’s due. As most contributors have recognised.



P.S. my post was in reply to CPS, who seems to be living in a different country to the rest of us.








P.P.S. Agreed about Sunak, I’ve been very impressed with him. Calm, clear message with action taken.



These positive air flow things look like being a great idea going forward.

Not a different country- just working daily in London and seeing maybe a different world to outside London

[Wooden Spoon]

calvin plummers socks said:

1585601480[/url]' post='1513051']
Not a different country- just working daily in London and seeing maybe a different world to outside London

You do know which city I work in don’t you?

[Nerima Spireite]

Mr Mercury, on 30 March 2020 - 01:54 PM, said:

Sorry it was in no way a slight on the Japanese people of today, rather looking at fishinis take on not having anything to do with Germans after what happened during the war and wondering if he felt the same way to Japan etc. People shouldn't pay for the sins of years gone by and you should take people of all kinds as you find them today.

No need to apologise! (Though Carson should take note on how it’s done). I agree with your sentiments 100%.

Seems like Fishini has reverted back to his old self after trying to be more positive about life - he seems very bitter now. Perhaps he ought to join me on the anti-depressants!

[isleaiw1]

Search and Destroy, on 30 March 2020 - 07:35 PM, said:

That’s relatively cheap and I wouldn’t disagree, there’s a clamour worldwide for it and would have made sense to have it just in case

Maximum 7 year life I understand from someone who orders and manages it - and if you look at previous issues that have caused a need they have been more than 7 years apart. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but suggesting you would have bought enough for this crisis and thrown it away when not needed, say in priority to a cancer ward, or a mental health initiative, is probably pushing reality....

The trouble is the world wants it and they cant make medical quality quickly enough... Is easy to say they should have done better but how...?

[Mr Mercury]

Talks sense?
https://youtu.be/hVmb51qNthg

[Misnomer]

DEATH, on 30 March 2020 - 08:45 PM, said:

P.P.P.S


I also hope that after this, any austerity measure are not targeted to public sector employees who are, right now, doing the country proud. On a par with 1940 - never have many, owed so much to so few.



The burden needs to be fairly distributed. No tax cuts for the highest earners while others suffer pay freezes. No, pay rises for our public sector heroes. They deserve it.

Not so long ago, I posted on here about the stupidity of ONLY giving ex armed forces various freebies and leg-ups, like allowing them to teach in secondary schools, etc.

I was sneered at when I suggested that it was people like nurses, police, fire service personnel, etc, who should be recognised for what they do... not just ex armed forces (who also get the Armed Forces Day).

Whilst many welcome the support, there are equally as many NHS workers who are furious at the irony of both the public and government; one usually punching them in the face on a Friday evening or throwing bricks at ambulance staff/vehicles, the other systematically destroying and privatising the NHS, presiding over horrifically inadequate nursing staff levels and an incomprehensible system of bonkers expensive locums.

The Tories should be thoroughly ashamed, but they won't be, and once this is over, they will revert to type...after announcing they have saved the country through their courageous response.


As for Sunak: what else could he do, oversee an economic apocalypse and serious anarchy (starting to happen in Italy) or give the majority of people money to pay bills and buy food? He's not stupid, and the offer to the self-employed was very clever; he is fully aware that the bill will be minimal when compared to the none self-employed.

[Wooden Spoon]

Mr Mercury said:

1585605167[/url]' post='1513056']
Talks sense?
https://youtu.be/hVmb51qNthg

Sorry but no, he’s being deliberately provocative, probably to boost his own ratings on the next LBC show

[Wooden Spoon]

Misnomer said:

1585606743[/url]' post='1513057']
Not so long ago, I posted on here about the stupidity of ONLY giving ex armed forces various freebies and leg-ups, like allowing them to teach in secondary schools, etc.

I was sneered at when I suggested that it was people like nurses, police, fire service personnel, etc, who should be recognised for what they do... not just ex armed forces (who also get the Armed Forces Day).

Whilst many welcome the support, there are equally as many NHS workers who are furious at the irony of both the public and government; one usually punching them in the face on a Friday evening or throwing bricks at ambulance staff/vehicles, the other systematically destroying and privatising the NHS, presiding over horrifically inadequate nursing staff levels and an incomprehensible system of bonkers expensive locums.

The Tories should be thoroughly ashamed, but they won't be, and once this is over, they will revert to type...after announcing they have saved the country through their courageous response.


As for Sunak: what else could he do, oversee an economic apocalypse and serious anarchy (starting to happen in Italy) or give the majority of people money to pay bills and buy food? He's not stupid, and the offer to the self-employed was very clever; he is fully aware that the bill will be minimal when compared to the none self-employed.

Sorry I don’t recall your post about freebies. If you did fair play. I’m not sure many people would sneer at you for wanting the emergency services to be rewarded, but maybe I missed that bit. Without being patronising or condescending could you post a link to the thread. I genuinely don’t remember anyone sneering at the emergency services. Maybe it was in totally different context.





Well, this crisis will be remembered for a long time. Shops that charged £10 for bog roll, Mike Ashley asking his staff to work. And if the tories do not fairly, and evenly distribute the burden of this borrowing which will have to be paid back, then this will also be remembered for a long long time.





Why are you so reluctant to give credit to a chancellor for doing what needed to be done?

[spireitetoo]

..

This post has been edited by spireitetoo: 31 March 2020 - 06:23 AM

[isleaiw1]

DEATH, on 30 March 2020 - 11:19 PM, said:

Well, this crisis will be remembered for a long time. Shops that charged £10 for bog roll, Mike Ashley asking his staff to work. And if the tories do not fairly, and evenly distribute the burden of this borrowing which will have to be paid back, then this will also be remembered for a long long time.

Why are you so reluctant to give credit to a chancellor for doing what needed to be done?

Think all would agree with that, it is of course the definition of fair and even that will be a challenge..... Everyone will have to pay more to pay for it, the question is whether those who are avoiding tax (legally) or evading tax (illegally) will do their fair share. I suspect not and so it will fall to those on the payroll to cover a chunk of it....

[calvin plummers socks]

May be a bit more pressure on the likes of Amazon, Uber and Starbucks to pay their share (hopefully)

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Misnomer, on 30 March 2020 - 10:19 PM, said:

Not so long ago, I posted on here about the stupidity of ONLY giving ex armed forces various freebies and leg-ups, like allowing them to teach in secondary schools, etc.

I was sneered at when I suggested that it was people like nurses, police, fire service personnel, etc, who should be recognised for what they do... not just ex armed forces (who also get the Armed Forces Day).

Whilst many welcome the support, there are equally as many NHS workers who are furious at the irony of both the public and government; one usually punching them in the face on a Friday evening or throwing bricks at ambulance staff/vehicles, the other systematically destroying and privatising the NHS, presiding over horrifically inadequate nursing staff levels and an incomprehensible system of bonkers expensive locums.

The Tories should be thoroughly ashamed, but they won't be, and once this is over, they will revert to type...after announcing they have saved the country through their courageous response.


As for Sunak: what else could he do, oversee an economic apocalypse and serious anarchy (starting to happen in Italy) or give the majority of people money to pay bills and buy food? He's not stupid, and the offer to the self-employed was very clever; he is fully aware that the bill will be minimal when compared to the none self-employed.

Let's call it what it is - nationalisation.

A collection of characters who've spent their lives not just opposing government intervention but pursuing a 'wild west' style free for all had no choice other than to intervene. On a scale not seen probably since the worldwide financial crash and definitely World War 2.

Even though they're now describing it as 'partnerships'.

As for your observation of a post outbreak Britain let's remember what happened in 1945, when a war winning Churchill was rejected by an electorate voting FOR the NHS, FOR a welfare state worth the name and FOR centrally controlled public services. Funded by the people for the people.

Let's see if those standing outside their homes to 'clap a carer' are prepared to turn those applause into taxes.

Then let's see if those joining in outside Number Ten for the PR stunt are prepared to implement those taxes fairly.

PS: raiding those offshore havens where self appointed patriots stash their cash would be an obvious start...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 31 March 2020 - 08:01 AM

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 31 March 2020 - 07:53 AM, said:

Let's call it what it is - nationalisation.

A collection of characters who've spent their lives not just opposing government intervention but pursuing a 'wild west' style free for all had no choice other than to intervene. On a scale not seen probably since the worldwide financial crash and definitely World War 2.

Even though they're now describing it as 'partnerships'.

As for your observation of a post outbreak Britain let's remember what happened in 1945, when a war winning Churchill was rejected by an electorate voting FOR the NHS, FOR a welfare state worth the name and FOR centrally controlled public services. Funded by the people for the people.

Let's see if those standing outside their homes to 'clap a carer' are prepared to turn those applause into taxes.

Then let's see if those joining in outside Number Ten for the PR stunt are prepared to implement those taxes fairly.

PS: raiding those offshore havens where self appointed patriots stash their cash would be an obvious start...

Its crisis management - when the need arises you take control and dictate. Its rarely the most efficient way to do things but sometimes the need to control outweighs the need to be efficient. When the crisis is over then efficiency is the key to getting back to where we need to be - and more economic activity will mean more taxes raised and more for everyone.

As for controlling offshore havens, easy to say, much harder to implement. The normal simple statement spouted by those who dont have a clue how hard it is implement but think it sounds good. International tax laws and behaviours are the most complex matter ever and saying that we should just close them is a bit like saying we should close down the cash economy and get everyone to pay their fair share of tax, its a great idea....

We will all be paying for this for a long time to come, the sad truth is that some of us will do our bit and pay our share (partly because we have no choice) where others will be trying to help themselves and not others. I include myself in the former, whereas many I am sure will think I should pay more.....

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Mr Mercury, on 30 March 2020 - 09:52 PM, said:

Talks sense?
https://youtu.be/hVmb51qNthg

Thanks, Mark.

We need a good guffaw at times like this.

And what better source of hilarity than desperate attention seeking from the unelected leader of a party comprehensively rejected at the last election.

So how many 'BB' members consider themselves under 'house arrest'...anyone? No? As for his 'living in a police state', I wonder if he was equally concerned about road blocks around mining communities during the Strike. Pretty sure he'd be straight on the blower if it were East Europeans having a Derbyshire dip, too.

Belly laughed at his 'We might as well hand the Chinese the keys to Number Ten', aswell. Would that be the same Chinese he's spent years advocating as trading partners for a post Brexit Britain? Yet now they've replaced the EU as his public enemy number one.

But hey, at least he joined all those Londoners leaving the city to isolate at their country retreats. Or the 'metropolitan elite' as some have called them.

Of course there's always the chance old Nige is being serious, here. In which case I look forward to all the condemnations from those who've previously criticised 'politicising' the current crisis...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 31 March 2020 - 09:07 AM

[CFC91]

Misnomer, on 30 March 2020 - 10:19 PM, said:

Not so long ago, I posted on here about the stupidity of ONLY giving ex armed forces various freebies and leg-ups, like allowing them to teach in secondary schools, etc.

I was sneered at when I suggested that it was people like nurses, police, fire service personnel, etc, who should be recognised for what they do... not just ex armed forces (who also get the Armed Forces Day).

Whilst many welcome the support, there are equally as many NHS workers who are furious at the irony of both the public and government; one usually punching them in the face on a Friday evening or throwing bricks at ambulance staff/vehicles, the other systematically destroying and privatising the NHS, presiding over horrifically inadequate nursing staff levels and an incomprehensible system of bonkers expensive locums.

The Tories should be thoroughly ashamed, but they won't be, and once this is over, they will revert to type...after announcing they have saved the country through their courageous response.


As for Sunak: what else could he do, oversee an economic apocalypse and serious anarchy (starting to happen in Italy) or give the majority of people money to pay bills and buy food? He's not stupid, and the offer to the self-employed was very clever; he is fully aware that the bill will be minimal when compared to the none self-employed.

Why will the bill to for SE be minimal? We've got 5.5m million self employed people in the country and the the governments measures will reach c.4m of those. Hardly going to be a drop in the ocean. It will probably only be cheaper because half of the people will now be regretting not declaring all their earnings and doing all those cash in hand jobs.

Sunak for me has come out of the wilderness (i'd never heard of him until recently) and comes across very well, so much so that i'd punted him to be the next Tory leader/PM.

I'm not a Tory voter like many on this thread but have been relatively impressed with their reaction (not preparation) to this. They do seem to be doing as much as they can to protect people and for that I am thankful, as I think are the majority of the public taking general sentiment from social media, which is largely very left win in my opinion (you'd never have backed Brexit or the Tory's to win based purely on what you read on Twitter etc for example). So if the vocal minority seem quite happy then they must be doing ok.

I think people are quick to politicise and points score when in reality we're all in this together and should be pulling in the same direction and when it's over we can pick up the fall out and judge what was right/wrong. I have a gut feeling the next 6 months will change policy, politics and the focus of governments for the next generation.

[calvin plummers socks]

Tax on cigs, vapes and alcohol face a huge rise acccording to wireless just now

[frearsghost]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 30 March 2020 - 07:56 PM, said:

Don't see any contradiction between acknowledging what our friend 'S&D' says and recognising what our many friends in public service are also saying, pal.

The government HAVE ensured large sections of society will get help. They HAVE supported the economy. They HAVE initiated a widespread response.

And whilst I oppose his politics and dislike how he obtained the job Sunak has shown a clarity of message missing amongst many of his colleagues.

However there's been hubris, hypocrisy and reaction rather than proaction on the government's part, too. Whilst we simply cannot divorce ten years of public service cuts from the current crisis. Or the fact frontline staff are STILL short of essential gear.

As said elsewhere a precedent's been set, though. Johnson and Co have admitted, albeit indirectly, how priceless properly funded infrastructure really is. Not to mention directly contradicting Thatcher's 'There is no society' this very morning.

If there's to be one positive from this pandemic let it be those prioritising tax cuts over public investment are never listened to again.

No country could have been prepared for the pandemic. The country has gone into debt - rightly so - to save lives as will most countries on the planet. You don't spend vast sums of money to prepare for something that happens once every one hundred years. If you did, most of the equipment and practices would be outdated by the time you came to use them. It's a bit like say we must build one thousand battleships and increase the army to one million combatants just in case there's another world war. That would be economic suicide. The pandemic deserves funding, the funding of infrastructure in normal times still requires prudent management. The majority of voters recognise this and have elected, what appears to be, a popular Prime Minister at the head of a popular government.

This frightful business is not an excuse to politicise the pandemic as an excuse to bolster Jeremy Corbyn economics. Look at Venezuela.