[Goku]

moondog, on 19 October 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

For sure as you give the impression you beleive Sampson was cleared in a court of racism when it never got that far.

Yep, didn't mean it to come across like that, I was using the incorrect terminology, apologies.

[Goku]

Valley Blues, on 19 October 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

I agree. It seems ridiculous that a conversation can take place between two individuals who have established acceptable boundaries but Joe Public can overhear and take offence to something they feel is racism and report this, effectively on behalf of one of the parties, to the police. This appears to be the case though.

Agree with both of you, however that's different to the Sampson/Aluko case.

[Misnomer]

Goku, on 19 October 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I'm not angling it to be a racist issue, I've stated myself that I don't believe anyone involved in this is a racist and I've quoted the judge herself stating she doesn't believe Sampson is a racist. Was there ignorance involved? It would appear so, hence why the judge reached the conclusion that Sampson "did treat Aluko less favourably than he would have treated a player who was not of African descent", so if you were to address that specific point directly, what would your response be? Do you think the judge is incorrect with her findings?

'Racist' banter (I wouldn't call it racist banter, we have banter about race, that doesn't necessitate racist banter, the mere mention of race doesn't equate to racism) between someone who is white and someone who is mixed race who have been friends and have established that understanding is clearly not an issue whatsoever, who is that hurting/offending/affecting? A comment about making sure a black player's family doesn't bring over a deadly disease from their home country which could've well affected people she knew from a white man and a black woman who by the sounds of it hadn't established that relationship (backed up by the comment the judge made about Sampson having issues realising what appropriate banter is) is clearly more of an issue, hence why the judge reached the conclusion I pasted in my above paragraph. You can work with somebody for years, doesn't mean you've established that relationship which means you can drop ebola bombs like he did. I'm sure he dropped many jokes to her white team mates, but that's false equivalence because those jokes aren't about race.

Anyway, the plot thickens:

You used inflammatory language like: 'racially motivated'; rather than with racist connotations. What does racially motivated mean, in your book?

OK, so what do you discuss, or to use your terminology, 'banter' about, when you discuss race? I'm genuinely intrigued, because I can't think of one thing that wouldn't be described as anything other than racist banter....except for maybe: "oh, your mixed race; oh, your white hahahahaha hahahaha". Rate banter, that.

I'd address that point by asking wtf she means by 'treated less favourably'? And, how does one actually measure that, in this instance..having a squad of 22 players, like.

The barrister made the comment about Sampson 'having issues realising what appropriate banter is' because, in this instance it has was brought forward as racism and bullying. If the barrister was to spend a clandestine week at any football club, she would undoubtedly state the same remark, with regard to appropriate banter, about almost every football manager in the entirety of UK football; it's that kind of environment, where do you draw the line?

As for you, Albert; wtf are you talking about? What's your opinion on the comedian, Dave Chappel (and, other black comedians), taking the pi$$ out of white people? I don't hear any black people being remotely offended by it, but it is definitely racist towards white people.

What about the old Lilt TV advert: 'lobsters on south beach' with reference to white people; is that not racist? Or, is it just 'funny', because it's about white people?

As for your '21st century' comment...my other half is a Pakistani Muslim. She suffered the most depressing community and family ostracism in order to become divorced and then be with a white, non-believer. I have been racially abused and spat at many times. She wants me to convert (to do with being with me after death) but I won't; maybe I will on my deathbed, just to make her happy. You can't get more 21St century...

You can try to demonise me as a racist, but I take each situation on it's own merit. Other black female players defended Sampson; do they also need dragging into the 21St century?

[DIFH]

DMU Blue, on 20 September 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

My money is on him having banged a young player at Bristol. Otherwise no reason for safeguarding team needing to be involved. Found not a safeguarding risk though so must have been old enough

Thas a vivid imagination.

[Goku]

Misnomer, on 19 October 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

You used inflammatory language like: 'racially motivated'; rather than with racist connotations. What does racially motivated mean, in your book?

I don't think it can be deemed inflammatory when that's precisely what it is - racially motivated. Sampson wouldn't have made that joke about a white player, thus the joke was motivated by Aluko's family's race - it absolutely was, I don't see how this can be disputed. The comment was discriminatory on the grounds of race within the Equality Act (2010) so how can it not be racially motivated?

OK, so what do you discuss, or to use your terminology, 'banter' about, when you discuss race? I'm genuinely intrigued, because I can't think of one thing that wouldn't be described as anything other than racist banter....except for maybe: "oh, your mixed race; oh, your white hahahahaha hahahaha". Rate banter, that.

Ooft, mate, I hate the word banter so please don't say it's my terminology, it's made my bottom clench since I was about 16 I dunno, I don't keep records and I feel that anything I put is gonna be mocked as unfunny or twisted in an attempt to make out like me engaging with a friend is the same as Sampson engaging with a colleague.

I'd address that point by asking wtf she means by 'treated less favourably'? And, how does one actually measure that, in this instance..having a squad of 22 players, like.

The barrister made the comment about Sampson 'having issues realising what appropriate banter is' because, in this instance it has was brought forward as racism and bullying. If the barrister was to spend a clandestine week at any football club, she would undoubtedly state the same remark, with regard to appropriate banter, about almost every football manager in the entirety of UK football; it's that kind of environment, where do you draw the line?

I know you've not explicitly said this, but just because it happens elsewhere doesn't mean that it should, just like the player you were working with laughing off a fried chicken jibe may not be seen in the same vein as another person receiving an ebola comment and taking issue with that - no two people are the same and it's up to the person doling out the comments to understand if the recipient is going to take it well or not based on past experiences with said recipient. This is clearly something that Sampson is very bad at and this has been proven at least twice so far, in fact check out the judge barrister's comments on the matter:

Quote

She also recommended “all FA employees” were trained in equal opportunities and diversity matters “at the earliest opportunity”, with a particular focus on “banter” and “jokes” in a football environment.

This post has been edited by Goku: 19 October 2017 - 01:49 PM

[Albert Holmes Slides In]

What about the old Lilt TV advert: 'lobsters on south beach' with reference to white people; is that not racist? Or, is it just 'funny', because it's about white people?


Who do you think makes Lilt? Could it be Coca Cola?
Which Ad' agency were they using? Bet loads of black kids get to be interns there? NOT! They get to sing in the choir, cos all black people can sing can't they?

So you think white people making jokes about white people equates to stereotyping black people as carriers of Ebola? Ebola versus Lilt - one's a fizzy drink and the other's one of the most horrific deaths you can imagine? I don't believe you actually do think that, because you are obviously an intelligent and perceptive man.

I don't think you are a racist Misnomer. But I DO think it IS funny to stereotype white people because we have been doing it to every other race for hundreds of years. Turning the world upside down always makes me laugh. And I'm white.

I do, however, think there are several clearly unconsciously racist comments (unconscious from the way they've been phrased as if they were "normal") on this thread.

We have people on here talking about dressing-room banter as if black players and even gay players will just suck it up. Oh look he responded in kind, that means our banter is normal. No it doesn't, it means he's going to go home and hate himself for not having the courage to speak out. If banter means nothing why are there 0-5 gay footballers in the professional game? You think gays can't play football, or they choose either to stay in the closet or go and do something else? Black players don't challenge racism and sometimes even collude in it out of much the same impulses.

I didn't mean to offend you Misnomer and apologise if I did. But I think Mark Sampson is too weak and too stupid a man to coach in the men's game. I think women's football deserves better, but then all football deserves something better than the current FA.

That's the end of me on Bob's.

And before I go forever, a recommendation, read THE SELLOUT by Paul Beatty

This post has been edited by Albert Holmes Slides In: 19 October 2017 - 02:26 PM

[Goku]

Albert Holmes Slides In, on 19 October 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

That's the end of me on Bob's.

And before I go forever

Whoa. Do not do that.

[Goku]

Albert Holmes Slides In, on 19 October 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

We have people on here talking about dressing-room banter as if black players and even gay players will just suck it up. Oh look he responded in kind, that means our banter is normal. No it doesn't, it means he's going to go home and hate himself for not having the courage to speak out. If banter means nothing why are there 0-5 gay footballers in the professional game? You think gays can't play football, or they choose either to stay in the closet or go and do something else? Black players don't challenge racism and sometimes even collude in it out of much the same impulses.

Backed up to an extent by this article written by Liam Rosenier: https://www.theguard...a-liam-rosenior

[Albert Holmes Slides In]

Goku, on 19 October 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

Whoa. Do not do that.

I saw your note as I was leaving and thought I should respond. There are a lot of great people on here with very interesting, well-expressed views (not all of which I agree with of course - I'm mostly the odd one out, how else would you end up as a gay ex-goalkeeper?) But there are some few views expressed which are a bit, well not worth arguing with, and a bit dispiriting, that's all.

I'll still look on here for information and enjoy reading contributors like you, but I won't be adding my voice. I hope we stay up and fear we won't. I like Jack, but worry that we're going to try to make him the next Dalai Lama. If we did end up in the Conference I'd be supporting him to get us back up, but I wouldn't buy the prayer flag. Cheers!

[Goku]

I hope you reconsider bud, the board needs as much variety as possible.

[fishini]

Goku, on 19 October 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

I hope you reconsider bud, the board needs as much variety as possible.

Don't worry G he'll be back just like many who have left before him. He will just create a new user name.

[Westbars Spireite]

Albert Holmes Slides In, on 19 October 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

What about the old Lilt TV advert: 'lobsters on south beach' with reference to white people; is that not racist? Or, is it just 'funny', because it's about white people?


Who do you think makes Lilt? Could it be Coca Cola?
Which Ad' agency were they using? Bet loads of black kids get to be interns there? NOT! They get to sing in the choir, cos all black people can sing can't they?

So you think white people making jokes about white people equates to stereotyping black people as carriers of Ebola? Ebola versus Lilt - one's a fizzy drink and the other's one of the most horrific deaths you can imagine? I don't believe you actually do think that, because you are obviously an intelligent and perceptive man.

I don't think you are a racist Misnomer. But I DO think it IS funny to stereotype white people because we have been doing it to every other race for hundreds of years. Turning the world upside down always makes me laugh. And I'm white.

I do, however, think there are several clearly unconsciously racist comments (unconscious from the way they've been phrased as if they were "normal") on this thread.

We have people on here talking about dressing-room banter as if black players and even gay players will just suck it up. Oh look he responded in kind, that means our banter is normal. No it doesn't, it means he's going to go home and hate himself for not having the courage to speak out. If banter means nothing why are there 0-5 gay footballers in the professional game? You think gays can't play football, or they choose either to stay in the closet or go and do something else? Black players don't challenge racism and sometimes even collude in it out of much the same impulses.

I didn't mean to offend you Misnomer and apologise if I did. But I think Mark Sampson is too weak and too stupid a man to coach in the men's game. I think women's football deserves better, but then all football deserves something better than the current FA.

That's the end of me on Bob's.

And before I go forever, a recommendation, read THE SELLOUT by Paul Beatty

I've actually just ordered that book on your recommendation. Sounds good. £2.45 delivered.

[clarevoyant.]

fishini, on 19 October 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

Don't worry G he'll be back just like many who have left before him. He will just create a new user name.

Hope you're right. Maybe he could come back has "Gerry Sears stays on his feet"

[60s 70s Spireite]

clarevoyant., on 19 October 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Hope you're right. Maybe he could come back has "Gerry Sears stays on his feet"

Made me laugh.

[Misnomer]

Albert Holmes Slides In, on 19 October 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

What about the old Lilt TV advert: 'lobsters on south beach' with reference to white people; is that not racist? Or, is it just 'funny', because it's about white people?


Who do you think makes Lilt? Could it be Coca Cola?
Which Ad' agency were they using? Bet loads of black kids get to be interns there? NOT! They get to sing in the choir, cos all black people can sing can't they?

So you think white people making jokes about white people equates to stereotyping black people as carriers of Ebola? Ebola versus Lilt - one's a fizzy drink and the other's one of the most horrific deaths you can imagine? I don't believe you actually do think that, because you are obviously an intelligent and perceptive man.

I don't think you are a racist Misnomer. But I DO think it IS funny to stereotype white people because we have been doing it to every other race for hundreds of years. Turning the world upside down always makes me laugh. And I'm white.

I do, however, think there are several clearly unconsciously racist comments (unconscious from the way they've been phrased as if they were "normal") on this thread.

We have people on here talking about dressing-room banter as if black players and even gay players will just suck it up. Oh look he responded in kind, that means our banter is normal. No it doesn't, it means he's going to go home and hate himself for not having the courage to speak out. If banter means nothing why are there 0-5 gay footballers in the professional game? You think gays can't play football, or they choose either to stay in the closet or go and do something else? Black players don't challenge racism and sometimes even collude in it out of much the same impulses.

I didn't mean to offend you Misnomer and apologise if I did. But I think Mark Sampson is too weak and too stupid a man to coach in the men's game. I think women's football deserves better, but then all football deserves something better than the current FA.

That's the end of me on Bob's.

And before I go forever, a recommendation, read THE SELLOUT by Paul Beatty

Any gay is a welcome addition on this board; diversity is crucial. I'm not sure why a disagreement about a such an issue would make you quit the board. You certainly contribute some insightful posts. Me and Goku get on rather well, we just happen to disagree on this issue. Likewise, me and Westbars, CPS...our only Muslim.

[Tha Knows...]

Goku, on 19 October 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

the board needs as much variety as possible.

Is that a plea for Warfey to return?

[Jud]

Goku, on 19 October 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

I hope you reconsider bud, the board needs as much variety as possible.

Completely agree.

[Tha Knows...]

Misnomer, on 19 October 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

You used inflammatory language like: 'racially motivated'; rather than with racist connotations. What does racially motivated mean, in your book?

OK, so what do you discuss, or to use your terminology, 'banter' about, when you discuss race? I'm genuinely intrigued, because I can't think of one thing that wouldn't be described as anything other than racist banter....except for maybe: "oh, your mixed race; oh, your white hahahahaha hahahaha". Rate banter, that.

I'd address that point by asking wtf she means by 'treated less favourably'? And, how does one actually measure that, in this instance..having a squad of 22 players, like.

The barrister made the comment about Sampson 'having issues realising what appropriate banter is' because, in this instance it has was brought forward as racism and bullying. If the barrister was to spend a clandestine week at any football club, she would undoubtedly state the same remark, with regard to appropriate banter, about almost every football manager in the entirety of UK football; it's that kind of environment, where do you draw the line?

As for you, Albert; wtf are you talking about? What's your opinion on the comedian, Dave Chappel (and, other black comedians), taking the pi$$ out of white people? I don't hear any black people being remotely offended by it, but it is definitely racist towards white people.

What about the old Lilt TV advert: 'lobsters on south beach' with reference to white people; is that not racist? Or, is it just 'funny', because it's about white people?

As for your '21st century' comment...my other half is a Pakistani Muslim. She suffered the most depressing community and family ostracism in order to become divorced and then be with a white, non-believer. I have been racially abused and spat at many times. She wants me to convert (to do with being with me after death) but I won't; maybe I will on my deathbed, just to make her happy. You can't get more 21St century...

You can try to demonise me as a racist, but I take each situation on it's own merit. Other black female players defended Sampson; do they also need dragging into the 21St century?

With regard to your partner I would say you have been a victim of discrimination and probably religious rather than racial prejudice from her family. She's been brave to stand up to them.

[Misnomer]

Spire-Power, on 20 October 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

With regard to your partner I would say you have been a victim of discrimination and probably religious rather than racial prejudice from her family. She's been brave to stand up to them.

Mine was/is definitely racism.

Yes, as CPS will know, it's far from the norm and comes at a huge personal cost. Thank you; she will appreciate your comment.

[stevie_b]

CFC91, on 19 October 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Well that's cr** isn't it? You bang on about gender more than anyone on here when in reality most of us couldn't give a monkey's if you were male, female, inbetween, alien or an animal.

Like in most areas of life, if you are good enough then you will get a job, recognition or whatever. I work in a company turning over hundreds of millions a week and the 3 people directly above me are all female, and this is in a sports industry? Why? Because they are good at their jobs!!

t's the same on here, if you have a good contribution people will accept it, recognise it and engage. If you come out with some rammell you'll get taken to the cleaners.

Nobody on here has an issue with your gender, I imagine many will have an issue with you trying to make it an issue at any given point. There isn't an issue with anyone's gender or race on here at all.

Yep, spot on; it's completely cr**!

Do you honestly believe that job success/recognition is based purely on merit in this country today? Honestly???? Pleased to hear that you have women in senior positions in your company; that's great. I hold down a reasonably senior position too but that's because my employer is enlightened. Other women are not so fortunate.

Anyway, my point wasn't related to the workplace: it was about this Board which, in my opinion (other points of view are available), isn't female friendly. And, it appears from recent postings, that some others are also finding it less than welcoming.

I do have a good contribution to make (again, in my opinion). Just for clarity, could you let me know who has the ultimate responsibility for determining whether contributions have value? Just so I can get a handle on how I should be pitching.... I don't consider that I come out with 'some rammell'—as you so eloquently put it—any more than you do.

Finally, you're not really in a position to assert that nobody has a problem with my gender, are you? You may indeed not and, from your posts, I don't think that you do. However, you can only speak for yourself. There are some serious knuckle draggers on here. I've been on the wrong end of their 'banter' on a few occasions. While they carry on with their archaic attitudes, I'll keep on highlighting it, with a view to dragging them into the modern era. It's a public forum. I'm not going to go away and keep quiet. The 'Ignore' function is there, should you wish to use it. I have no issue with you or your views and like to hear what everyone has to say, so I won't be going down that route.

Hoping for three points tomorrow to cheer us all up

C x