[sophocles]

Spire-Power, on 09 September 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

Joking apart its rather worrying if he thinks that

I might be wrong, but I interpret his remarks as meaning that we have a lot of midfield players in the squad, which is true (especially if you include Dennis as a midfielder, which happened v Coventry). The problem is, as we can all see, getting the right balance between holding midfielders and creative midfielders. We got closer to being more solid in midfield in the last game, but at the expense of holding Dennis back and leaving O'Grady completely isolated. It was very noticeable that the only time Dennis did run ahead of O'Grady he created a very good scoring opportunity in the first half, but otherwise O'Grady was struggling against 3 defenders with no support. Caldwell was successful in making us more solid in that game, which is fine for hanging on for a point. The problem he still hasn't solved is retaining that solidity while still being capable of getting forward more often and getting 3 points from a game. I think the arrival of Jules and Briggs means we do now have players good enough to do that if GC can get just the mixture right.

[Tha Knows...]

You don't have to be the most gifted player to do the holding role well. Obviously you need to be able to tackle effectively. I would have thought it involves concentration to keep your position in front of the back line, sense danger from runners and deal with It. Move into space without the ball and make simple passes. Maybe I undervalue it but I don't think we have such a player.

[Lincs Spireite]

Spire-Power, on 09 September 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

You don't have to be the most gifted player to do the holding role well. Obviously you need to be able to tackle effectively. I would have thought it involves concentration to keep your position in front of the back line, sense danger from runners and deal with It. Move into space without the ball and make simple passes. Maybe I undervalue it but I don't think we have such a player.

Something Jimmy Ryan excelled at. When we get Binnom Williams back, maybe Briggs could move into that position and add power and pace.

[Tha Knows...]

sophocles, on 09 September 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

I might be wrong, but I interpret his remarks as meaning that we have a lot of midfield players in the squad, which is true (especially if you include Dennis as a midfielder, which happened v Coventry). The problem is, as we can all see, getting the right balance between holding midfielders and creative midfielders. We got closer to being more solid in midfield in the last game, but at the expense of holding Dennis back and leaving O'Grady completely isolated. It was very noticeable that the only time Dennis did run ahead of O'Grady he created a very good scoring opportunity in the first half, but otherwise O'Grady was struggling against 3 defenders with no support. Caldwell was successful in making us more solid in that game, which is fine for hanging on for a point. The problem he still hasn't solved is retaining that solidity while still being capable of getting forward more often and getting 3 points from a game. I think the arrival of Jules and Briggs means we do now have players good enough to do that if GC can get just the mixture right.

What they have to make sure is if possession is lost going forward, as happened with Reed v Coventry, there is cover against breaking opponents. Weir was not goal side of the runner and that led to his dismissal. When going forward someone has to think what will happen if we lose the ball - do we have cover? That's just my view as a fan.

[sophocles]

Spire-Power, on 09 September 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

You don't have to be the most gifted player to do the holding role well. Obviously you need to be able to tackle effectively. I would have thought it involves concentration to keep your position in front of the back line, sense danger from runners and deal with It. Move into space without the ball and make simple passes. Maybe I undervalue it but I don't think we have such a player.

As you say, you don't need a particularly gifted player for the job, you just need one who can concentrate on keeping in position and reading the game. I think we have got players who could do it, and it's down to the manager to organise the team so that the players know who is doing what.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

sophocles, on 09 September 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

As you say, you don't need a particularly gifted player for the job, you just need one who can concentrate on keeping in position and reading the game. I think we have got players who could do it, and it's down to the manager to organise the team so that the players know who is doing what.

Agreed.

Sam Morsy and Jimmy Ryan weren't the most technically gifted players but were told to patrol the gap between the half way line and our back four.

Add that to a rational formation and it was a formula that got us to Wembley, a L2 title and an appearance in the L1 play offs.

[Tha Knows...]

Bowzer spirey, on 09 September 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

Something Jimmy Ryan excelled at. When we get Binnom Williams back, maybe Briggs could move into that position and add power and pace.

Yes Ryan knew his job and stuck to it with great efficiency. Need someone like that with Weir.Dimaio imo is a good passer but he is slow, not great at tackling and his awareness
/ anticipation around the box is lacking. McCourt, early days but seems to let play go behind him too much, senses danger too late and makes rash challenges so maybe concentration issues there not to mention discipline.Reed more of an attacking midfielder imo. Sinnott, Rowley attacking too. Have I missed anyone out? Maybe Jules can do the holding role.

[Tha Knows...]

sophocles, on 09 September 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

As you say, you don't need a particularly gifted player for the job, you just need one who can concentrate on keeping in position and reading the game. I think we have got players who could do it, and it's down to the manager to organise the team so that the players know who is doing what.

Who do you think can do it?

[dim view]

MDCCCLXVI, on 09 September 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Agreed.

Sam Morsy and Jimmy Ryan weren't the most technically gifted players but were told to patrol the gap between the half way line and our back four.

Add that to a rational formation and it was a formula that got us to Wembley, a L2 title and an appearance in the L1 play offs.

Thing is, suicide passes are .......suicidal. They leave players unprepared and out of position. Sam and Jimmy didn't have that problem to contend with. They had good players around them.

My interpretation of the problem is not that we have bad holding players in open play, it's that individuals who may be called on at any time to defend properly one against one aren't doing it.

Newport's star striker provided a good example. He ran back to defend against Wiseman and then decided to try to fool the ref into thinking he'd been pushed in the back by falling over instead of doing his job. We scored.

[whittman]

Spire-Power, on 09 September 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

You don't have to be the most gifted player to do the holding role well. Obviously you need to be able to tackle effectively. I would have thought it involves concentration to keep your position in front of the back line, sense danger from runners and deal with It. Move into space without the ball and make simple passes. Maybe I undervalue it but I don't think we have such a player.

The ability to anticipate where the clearances and second balls will land is a gift to the holding midfield player and that is something Mark Allott had
which enabled him to break up many opposition attacks before they really developed

Even though he was a target for the boo boys how we could do with him in midfield now

The problem with Mark and the boo boys as I saw it was the that because he saw a lot of the ball sometimes he made the wrong decisions with his passing which sometimes gave the ball back to the opposition but he never hid in that crucial holding role

And also he came from Oldham initially on loan as a forward so was converted to the holding midfield role

[Spireite-Karl]

whittman, on 09 September 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

The ability to anticipate where the clearances and second balls will land is a gift to the holding midfield player and that is something Mark Allott had
which enabled him to break up many opposition attacks before they really developed

Even though he was a target for the boo boys how we could do with him in midfield now

The problem with Mark and the boo boys as I saw it was the that because he saw a lot of the ball sometimes he made the wrong decisions with his passing which sometimes gave the ball back to the opposition but he never hid in that crucial holding role

And also he came from Oldham initially on loan as a forward so was converted to the holding midfield role

Allott for me was the master of the holding role. His awareness and timing were high premiership standard. What Allott didn't have which would have undoubtedly have seen him play higher in the football pyramid is strength (bulk) though he was strong for his size, pace and great forward awareness of a probing pass (though he did play some beauties from time to time). He played to his limitations and that was to be a stopper. He won the ball 9/10 times and as clean as a whistle, usually with his excellent anticipation of what the opposition was going to do (a art form and a sheer joy to watch) and then he'd lay a simple pass off to a team mate who could then start the offence. Yes, some argued that this slowed the game down, but not from me as we had possession and if it wasn't for Allott we wouldn't have been in possession of the ball half the time. Absolute quality at what he did well, and a crying shame that he had his knockers imo and that they never got him as a player as he was a quality lower league player imo. Morsy was very similar, though a lot stronger and a bit more to his game, though didn't quite have Allott's awareness, which I've seen none better at Town in over 30 years of watching us and I very much doubt I will again, the best reader of a game ever imo!

[whittman]

Spireite-Karl, on 09 September 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Allott for me was the master of the holding role. His awareness and timing were high premiership standard. What Allott didn't have which would have undoubtedly have seen him play higher in the football pyramid is strength (bulk) though he was strong for his size, pace and great forward awareness of a probing pass (though he did play some beauties from time to time). He played to his limitations and that was to be a stopper. He won the ball 9/10 times and as clean as a whistle, usually with his excellent anticipation of what the opposition was going to do (a art form and a sheer joy to watch) and then he'd lay a simple pass off to a team mate who could then start the offence. Yes, some argued that this slowed the game down, but not from me as we had possession and if it wasn't for Allott we wouldn't have been in possession of the ball half the time. Absolute quality at what he did well, and a crying shame that he had his knockers imo and that they never got him as a player as he was a quality lower league player imo. Morsy was very similar, though a lot stronger and a bit more to his game, though didn't quite have Allott's awareness, which I've seen none better at Town in over 30 years of watching us and I very much doubt I will again, the best reader of a game ever imo!

Absoulutely spot on assesment

Those who knocked him had no idea of his capabilities or his role in the team

[Tha Knows...]

whittman, on 09 September 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Absoulutely spot on assesment

Those who knocked him had no idea of his capabilities or his role in the team

Correct though I preferred Ryan

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

Spire-Power, on 09 September 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Who do you think can do it?

I reckon Hird will be asked to do it today

[Stockholm Spireite]

Allot, Ryan and I would add Phil Robinson to those names as well. Did a lot of (ironically called) "unseen" work and a vital cog in the team mechanism

This post has been edited by Stockholm Spireite: 09 September 2017 - 02:55 PM

[sophocles]

Spire-Power, on 09 September 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

Who do you think can do it?

Weir, McCourt, Briggs, Jules are strong enough if played in the right formation and with the right guidance from the manager. I've never been one to turn on managers, even Saunders, but Caldwell appears to be utterly clueless. Nevertheless, I don't see how sacking him will help us because DA will not bring in anybody better.

[azul]

sophocles, on 09 September 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

Weir, McCourt, Briggs, Jules are strong enough if played in the right formation and with the right guidance from the manager. I've never been one to turn on managers, even Saunders, but Caldwell appears to be utterly clueless. Nevertheless, I don't see how sacking him will help us because DA will not bring in anybody better.

He might stumble on someone better

[RGS]

Column: Players owe Caldwell after undermining his position with horror show

http://www.derbyshir...ition-1-8747100

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

RGS, on 11 September 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Column: Players owe Caldwell after undermining his position with horror show

http://www.derbyshir...ition-1-8747100

A good summary of situation

[BlueRover52]

RGS, on 11 September 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Column: Players owe Caldwell after undermining his position with horror show

http://www.derbyshir...ition-1-8747100

Players owe him for giving them "a living".One could argue that they aren't up to the task he sets them.They don't go out on purpose to lose.Caldwell has put his squad together and the evidence is there to be seen,they're just not good enough to do what he asks.