[Wooden Spoon]

dim view, on 13 August 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

course the formation matters. We cannot field 2 left footers in defence/midfield due to injury/lack of funds, so complaining about players playing out of position is rather futile, somebody has to. Perhaps your post presents a solution. Field the versatile, multi talented SH at LB?

Oh Mr B, your on form today.

[Webster]

Steve Kendall 1982, on 13 August 2017 - 12:35 PM, said:

Tbh - He has to let McGuire, Wakefield and German out on loan - along with the other youngsters- I'd say for the whole season and free up some cash. These guys are not ready yet. Get that 48 year old in from Rangers and a bit of height in the team around the middle of the park. It's no coincidence we keep fouling and getting cards - there's no pace anywhere that includes Hird who makes up for it with his exceptional reading and tackling.

Ok who would take them?<br>&nbsp;Hirds lack of pace when paired with someone slower than him eg Luton away last season shows our summer recruitment policy was flawed well done Caldwell/ Branno btw on that not for not at least signing a cb who attacks the ball.

Evo missed much of last season with injury and we at least had Anderson who for his faults airley wasnt really one of them was quicker than Evo

The pairing of an ageing Evo and Hird without 2 mobile defensive midfielders infront of them is a real issue You could then also add a dodgy keeper and lack of creativity or pace up top

[dtp]

MDCCCLXVI, on 13 August 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

There's no debate about Sam Hird, my friend.

His consistently won POTY awards say all that needs saying.

And his partnership with Evatt can't get much more 'proven' than winning the L2 title and reaching the L1 play offs.

Neither Sheridan or Cook played a defensive left sided midfielder, the first relying upon the quality of his LB and simply outscoring opponents whilst the second used his holding 'two' as cover.

But then all this is moot whilstever we've a manager who refuses to acknowledge there's a problem.

Unfortunately, Chris, I think there is a debate about Sam Hird.

First of all, I have to say I like the guy, I think he is an intelligent footballer who'se brain is quicker than his legs, by reading the game well he intercepts attacking moves and passes the ball better than the average defender at this level. He interviews well, represents the club well, and, for my money, will most probably make a good manager.

However, is this enough?

He gets beaten with regularity in the air, his lack of pace leads to him giving fouls away in dangerous areas, he's right footed when we need more experience on the left side of defence, he is not an Evatt replacement if Evatt gets injured or suspended (in fact, we haven't got one), he is part of a central defensive duo which has consistently leaked goals either by being attacked by pacy forwards or from dead-ball situations, and, whilst he has played in other positions, he is not really versatile.

So, if the chance came to strengthen the defence as a result of Hird moving on and using his not so cheap salary - surely, the debate is about, should we do it?

I actually think there is more transfer movement to come with the most likely outgoings being McGinn & Dimiao, neither of whom seem to be in GC's plans, Mitchell, our only wide player, and loans to the Conference or below for our contracted kids.

[ELTON 2020]

Webster, on 13 August 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Ok who would take them?<br>&nbsp;Hirds lack of pace when paired with someone slower than him eg Luton away last season shows our summer recruitment policy was flawed well done Caldwell/ Branno btw on that not for not at least signing a cb who attacks the ball.

Evo missed much of last season with injury and we at least had Anderson who for his faults airley wasnt really one of them was quicker than Evo

The pairing of an ageing Evo and Hird without 2 mobile defensive midfielders infront of them is a real issue You could then also add a dodgy keeper and lack of creativity or pace up top

Not looking good. Branston is a talker. I'm not keen.

[60s 70s Spireite]

In he matter of the Wiseman, Hird and Evo debate, a number of points.
Wiseman' preferred position is right back, indeed his squad number at Scunny and Barnsley was No. 2. He is a player who can play as a central defender but it is not his speciality.
Although it was never a sending off offence, yesterday he did lose sight of the attacker by a lapse of concentration, hence he chose to bring the attacker down. Something a poster rightly says Hird has to do on occasions.
Evo made his customary errors, giving the ball away to Jon Stead who should have buried the chance and losing control of the ball later on the edge of our area, again which could have led to a goal.

For me there's is no stand out defender as yet this season, but to pick out Hird as the weak link has no basis. In any event, I can't see Evo staying fit for the full season.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

trickytrevsfanclub, on 13 August 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Pretending you don't know the names of some of the players is taking fake indifference a bit too far don't you think?

We're not all Eric Olthwaite, my friend.

[h again]

MDCCCLXVI, on 13 August 2017 - 07:57 AM, said:

Hird twice prevented us going behind before we actually did, Dave.

The idea a consistent talent like him should be dropped whilst the bang ordinary Barry plays is bizarre.

I'll say it again - why not play the proven Hird/Evatt partnership in central defence. Why not play Wiseman, who's experience at right back, at right back. Why not play Donahue, who's done relatively well at left back, at left back. Why not play Weir and McCourt, who were signed as defensive midfielders, in the Morsy/Ryan holding role. Why not play O'Grady at the point of an attacking 'four' with Reid, Dennis and A. N. Other (not seen enough of any of the new lads to judge whilst Mitchell has never really caught my eye) around him.

That's the formation that won this league three years ago.

The only thing the Evatt/Hird partnership is "proven" to do is concede goals. How much proof do you need before it sinks in? Apart from last season's farce in conceding the most goals in L1, we were taken apart by every L2 outfit we played. They concede on a regular basis from set pieces, high crosses and teams simply running past them because they're too slow. Nothing has changed from last season, nor will it. The introduction of Wiseman at RB is irrelevant, since all the problems are central and left.
Caldwell saw it last season and for some reason has chosen to ignore it. Unless he can magic some more money from somewhere it could well be what finishes his career in football.

[Tha Knows...]

Caldwell needed to sign a tall powerful and athletic CB to partner Hird. With Evatt as back up for the pair.

[h again]

Spire-Power, on 13 August 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

Caldwell needed to sign a tall powerful and athletic CB to partner Hird. With Evatt as back up for the pair.

I'm afraid that to get any kind of success we can't afford either of them, but if it comes to the crunch I'd rather play Evatt, since there's nothing in it pace-wise and he at least wins headers in his own penalty box.
All this business about reading the game and skill on the ball is quite true, and totally irrelevant. Reading the game well only works if you have enough pace to affect the game as a result, and skill on the ball isn't much good if the opposition have it and are doing what they like.

[Tha Knows...]

Simplistic view. Evatt wins more headers than Hird but Hird still wins plenty of headers. Hird is not fast but he's quicker than Evatt. Hird' s distribution is better. But tbh I don't want to do this debate all over again. We needed a better CB than both of them

[h again]

Spire-Power, on 13 August 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

Simplistic view. Evatt wins more headers than Hird but Hird still wins plenty of headers. Hird is not fast but he's quicker than Evatt. Hird' s distribution is better. But tbh I don't want to do this debate all over again. We needed a better CB than both of them

Amen to that.

[lindave]

MDCCCLXVI, on 12 August 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

Let's get summat out the way up front; today's ref was a joke. A parody. A Python-esque satire of every comically biased 'homer' that ever reached our screens. It became clear as early as the opening exchanges that all a Notts player had to do was throw himself to the floor to get a decision. Meanwhile far more obvious fouls on Town players were simply waved away.

I wasn't watching the sending off - from the corner of my eye it seemed nothing more than a defender blocking an attacker as seen dozens of times in every game - but this was an official that'd awarded a throw-in then randomly decided to re-start the game with an in-field drop-ball after (surprise-surprise) a supposed injury to a home player.

It's sickening to think he might walk away from such brazen incompetence without any thought given to the many Town fans suffering as a result.

However.

Given this was my first glimpse of CFC 2017/18 - thanks to Carson and Co's ongoing behaviour - the opening conversations went pretty much like this:

Me: 'Who's that on the left of our back three?'

Mates: 'Wiseman.'

Me: 'So why're we playing a right footer in that position?'

Mates: >shrugged shoulders and rolled eyes<

Me: 'Isn't one of our two holding midfielders that lad from Sheffyoo? But I thought he was a creative player?'

Mates: >shrugged shoulders and rolled eyes<

Me: 'Why is Dennis in midfield?'

Mates: >shrugged shoulders and rolled eyes<

Me: 'So we've square pegs in round holes after just two games? Despite all the fuss about starting back earlier than other sides?'

Mates: >bewildered shaking of heads<

Me: 'Why not put a Dion Donahue who's done well at left back there, play the right-sided defender Wiseman in that role and at least build from a solid base? Why not play the bloke signed from Northampton (dunno his name) as a defensive midfielder alongside Weir and allow the Blunts loanee more licence?'

Mates: >resigned looks<

What followed can best be described as 'hopeful' play by the two teams. Neither could seem to string together any meaningful passages, neither mustered any real cohesion and both went long-ish to their respective 'big lads' up-front. Sam Hird denied County twice, first with a last-ditch tackle on Ameobi then a goal-line block, whilst Reid shot well wide before Ugwu (?) fired straight at their 'keeper in front of goal.

It also became abundantly obvious that the diminutive Anyon refuses to stray beyond his six yard box and punches rather than catches, whilst the Swindon releasee Barry can't go past a man. Infact the whole Chesterfield line-up lacked any pace whatsoever.

We all know what happened before an otherwise forgettable first half came to a close.

Boos rang around Meadow Lane.

Town actually impressed for the next ten or so minutes, definitely dictating and only a double block preventing 'Double-D' from opening the scoring. Yet then Anyon confirmed his lack of presence by knuckling a ball he really should've caught before allowing what appeared an innocuous header to loop over him despite being on his own line.

I think the abbreviation is 'FFS'.

It all got a bit 'last season' then, us struggling to even do the basics. But whether Notts sat back, are genuinely pants or we finally showed some b*ll*cks it was Town that rallied over the last twenty-ish minutes. Another new face to me, Delial Brewster, demonstrated laudable intent by adopting a 'shoot on sight' policy and the ten pushing for an equaliser deserve credit for effort even if it lacked quality.

As is so often the case that merely opened a gap, though, a 'take-one-for-the-team' trip by Hird giving away a twenty yard free kick which led to a Scotland v England, Leigh Griffiths style strike ending the game. And as then folk can decide for themselves if it was a remarkable shot or just poor goalkeeping.

I guess there'll be those who'll argue Notts could, just maybe, have more to worry about than us. It's true there were times when they were second best to ten men and who knows what might've happened with a different ref.

That can't detract from some very inconvenient truths on our part, mind.

The Manager still insists on pursuing his favoured formation regardless of sense or circumstance. Players he inherited - Evatt, Hird and Dennis - impressed more than his signings. He's fielding players out of position after only two competitive fixtures. We lack any credible creativity and pace. Indeed an O'Shea, maybe even a Gardner might've stood out much more than any of our summer arrivals.

And we're bottom of the entire football league.

Congratulations Gary Caldwell, Guy Branston, Ashley Carson and assorted cronies.

Next week is 'Ernie day'. I want to attend to register my support for a true Town legend, someone that epitomises everything good, wholesome and respectable about Chesterfield FC.

Unfortunately people who aren't fit to breath his name are forcing me to think long and hard about doing so.

I see that Ernie wristbands will be on sale, I'll wear mine with pride for a great legend.

[h again]

Spire-Power, on 13 August 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

Simplistic view. Evatt wins more headers than Hird but Hird still wins plenty of headers. Hird is not fast but he's quicker than Evatt. Hird' s distribution is better. But tbh I don't want to do this debate all over again. We needed a better CB than both of them

Don't want to push this any further, but watching the highlights is frightening. We've all had a go at the ref, but how Evatt stayed on the field after a blatant push in the back on Stead when he was through on goal can only be explained by more rotten refereeing, this time in our favour. Again, brought about by lack of pace, as was Hird's yellow.
At this rate we'll need another CB just to cover for suspensions, so let's hope we get a fast one.

[Essex_Spireite]

Agree with the write up. Best player on the pitch? Dan Jones I thought. Some of his corners were brilliant.

Also, the decision to sub Dennis was nothing short of farcical.

[Spireite-Karl]

Spire-Power, on 13 August 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

Simplistic view. Evatt wins more headers than Hird but Hird still wins plenty of headers. Hird is not fast but he's quicker than Evatt. Hird' s distribution is better. But tbh I don't want to do this debate all over again. We needed a better CB than both of them

I've been saying this for years. Our central defenders make gaining anything points-wise from a single game of football an uphill task.

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

Spire-Power, on 13 August 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

Simplistic view. Evatt wins more headers than Hird but Hird still wins plenty of headers. Hird is not fast but he's quicker than Evatt. Hird' s distribution is better. But tbh I don't want to do this debate all over again. We needed a better CB than both of them

We need more in front of them all across the back line to protect them. That's not because they are slow or crap just b caus it's very basic football. We are wide open down our left

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

How many has Hird cleared of the line so far, 3?

If the back 2 are left exposed they'll get done, ours or anybody elses. We need our DM's to be winning the second ball, because there'll be plenty of them.

To think of replacing Hird with Evatt is madness. I like Evo, but the likelihood of him lasting the season is slim.

Too simplistic to say we're leaking goals because of defence alone.

[newbold ken]

h again, on 14 August 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Don't want to push this any further, but watching the highlights is frightening. We've all had a go at the ref, but how Evatt stayed on the field after a blatant push in the back on Stead when he was through on goal can only be explained by more rotten refereeing, this time in our favour. Again, brought about by lack of pace, as was Hird's yellow.
At this rate we'll need another CB just to cover for suspensions, so let's hope we get a fast one.

Yep really thought evo was going to walk again for that - it was pretty pointless as well being the last minute so we'd just about lost anyway.

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

h again, on 13 August 2017 - 08:25 PM, said:

The only thing the Evatt/Hird partnership is "proven" to do is concede goals. How much proof do you need before it sinks in? Apart from last season's farce in conceding the most goals in L1, we were taken apart by every L2 outfit we played. They concede on a regular basis from set pieces, high crosses and teams simply running past them because they're too slow. Nothing has changed from last season, nor will it. The introduction of Wiseman at RB is irrelevant, since all the problems are central and left.
Caldwell saw it last season and for some reason has chosen to ignore it. Unless he can magic some more money from somewhere it could well be what finishes his career in football.

They concede from set pieces, high crosses and the rest because we have been constantly under the gun. Because our midfield wins nowt in front of them and because our flanks are exposed and because they're caught in no mans land because we're always chasing the game.

It's a team game. The diagnosis ought to reflect that.

[Spireite-Karl]

KevinArnottsGoldenBoot, on 14 August 2017 - 01:23 PM, said:

How many has Hird cleared of the line so far, 3?

If the back 2 are left exposed they'll get done, ours or anybody elses. We need our DM's to be winning the second ball, because there'll be plenty of them.

To think of replacing Hird with Evatt is madness. I like Evo, but the likelihood of him lasting the season is slim.

Too simplistic to say we're leaking goals because of defence alone.

That's obvious as you say, but you build from the back and these two will always give poor goals away. Evatt's strength is supposed to be in the air, but how long have we had a problem of conceding from basic balls from out wide?