[azul]

Elton John 1866, on 16 October 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

"Ok, we're here to stay..." Quote from Planet of the Apes. What I see as key in this debate is having a manager who can do something on a shoestring. Since Paul Cook we've had neither. Saunders was a big time Charlie who blew the budget on crocks. Wilson , in his managerial career has had big budgets.. Sheffield Clubs, Bristol, Swindon, Barnsley etc.... I'm afraid it wouldn't surprise me if he walked away. The way things are going we are going to have to do another Cook, or better. The Accrington, Burton, Rochdale model and maybe even Bury etc... (I can't see their manager having a big pile of cash) and no doubt certain Scottish Prem, league 1 clubs base it on hungry young players, fit players, athletic and physical.I'm not sure we have many of these. The fact that Accy have a far lower budget than ours and turned up with a team could and should have had 6 goals lays this out on the footballing carpet. I think we have to forget Turner etc... when finding out the fundamentals of where we are. What we have to do now is weigh up whether a non-league manager with a proven record at a lower level. i.e. Cook at best, is the route to go down. I fear it is.

Well DW doesn't have a big budget if you don't include those non playing high earnershe was saddled with.

Have noticed the players we have been signing recently

Dennis and Nolan (from non league), Fulton and Anderson on loan (hungry young prem players wanting to play football), Evans (hungry for any kind of football) and a number of young lads handed thier debuts. Add the likes of Graham, Donohue Dimaio and Simons signed last season

That is about as Accrington as you could find outside Accrington

[DIFH]

Ernie Ernie Ernie, on 16 October 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

The over spending of cook and the subsequent fire sale
The on going gravy train
Poor financial management
Dean Saunders
An injury list few teams would cope with
Players that aren't good enough
Players that aren't ready
Negativity of everything in and around the club

Danny is the least of our worries he's just the easy target

I'ts daft to try and lay anything at DW door with the restrictions he has. You maybe able to question a substituation at best in our games where we've gone onto lose or draw from a winning position, thats all well and good if the players are at 100 % and concentrating for the full game.

If anyone is going to try please be specific.

[DIFH]

BlueRover52, on 16 October 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

Unless there is a fundamental way our club is run we're only heading one way.Hopefully we can regroup and recover before we disappear into oblivion.That is the reality of it all.

There seems to be no long term strategy just get rich quick ludicrous ventures which repeatedly blown up in our face. They've been reeled in by the academy promise of riches which as yet has to prove its merit. Don't know if it's desperation or plain and simple greed.

[Ernie Ernie Ernie]

Elton John 1866, on 16 October 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Who signed them? Just asking

Classic you're lambasting Danny and you don't know who he has signed lol

[The Black Triangle]

S43_Spireite, on 16 October 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

The way I see it is this..............DA went for broke with Cook, throwing large sums of cash at getting us into the Championship

I don't really think he went for broke as such. He backed a manager well enough but it's not that simple. The players negotiated decent salaries, but also had massive incentive bonus payments in the contracts. Bonus payments that seemed to have been overlooked by those setting the budget and charged with the day to day running of the club. Come the end of the year we find bonus payments outstrip the revenues from a JPT final, and a promotion season the same year delivered a million pound loss. Now how the CEO was able to justify the loss to the owner and still keep his job I don't know, but there you have the losses. Not from backing a manager and budgeting for a loss, but backing a manager with contracts that no one really seemed to understand the full expenditure of.

Cooks summer signings following the promotion and his interviews at the time show the plug had already been pulled.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

Was Cook's budget higher or lower than Sheridan's?

Than Saunders'?

And shouldn't near seven thousand averages supplemented by a Wembley final, a fourth round appearance at Derby, play off games, higher prices, summer gigs, supposedly profitable lounges and the occasional player sale have funded the team if finances were properly managed?

[ELTON 2020]

Ernie Ernie Ernie, on 16 October 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

Classic you're lambasting Danny and you don't know who he has signed lol

rhetorical??

[Tha Knows...]

MDCCCLXVI: Was Cook's budget higher or lower than Sheridan's?

Than Saunders'?



Freelander2: Cook was backed financially like no other manager in our history

This post has been edited by Spire-Power: 16 October 2016 - 01:30 PM

[whittman]

Back in the early 80s Arthur Cox spent heavily on transfer fees to try and get us into the then 2nd division

On deadline day 1980 I think we were the biggest spending club in all four divisions but we just failed
to reach the promised land

Just over 2 years later the club was within 10 minutes I heard of going out of exsistence until
Watterson and Hubbard stepped in to pay the debts

Cox in the meantime had jumped ship to Newcastle just after he realised his go for broke policy had not worked
leaving Frank Barlow to try and pick up thde pieces

We won the last ever Anglo/ Scottish Cup in 1981 but after that win we fell away and just failed again to go up

Imo some of the similarities between the policies of Cox and Cook are uncanny just as the reactions to the
failure to go up are

The only difference is that back in the day the club was run by a secretary who wouldnot spend a penny
when a halfpenny would due

What Arthur Sutherland made of the spending in the Cox era heaven only knows

Another difference is that the club was saved by 2 men who were TOWN SUPPORTERS who cared for the club

This post has been edited by whittman: 16 October 2016 - 02:15 PM

[firedodger]

MDCCCLXVI, on 16 October 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Was Cook's budget higher or lower than Sheridan's?

Than Saunders'?

And shouldn't near seven thousand averages supplemented by a Wembley final, a fourth round appearance at Derby, play off games, higher prices, summer gigs, supposedly profitable lounges and the occasional player sale have funded the team if finances were properly managed?

I doubt we'll ever know the full extent of cooks budget and spending, plus his bonus structure that has been hinted at before.

[DMU Blue]

Stopped reading at Planet of the Apes

[Bobby Darling]

whittman, on 16 October 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Back in the early 80s Arthur Cox spent heavily on transfer fees to try and get us into the then 2nd division

On deadline day 1980 I think we were the biggest spending club in all four divisions but we just failed
to reach the promised land

Just over 2 years later the club was within 10 minutes I heard of going out of exsistence until
Watterson and Hubbard stepped in to pay the debts

Cox in the meantime had jumped ship to Newcastle just after he realised his go for broke policy had not worked
leaving Frank Barlow to try and pick up thde pieces

We won the last ever Anglo/ Scottish Cup in 1981 but after that win we fell away and just failed again to go up

Imo some of the similarities between the policies of Cox and Cook are uncanny just as the reactions to the
failure to go up are

The only difference is that back in the day the club was run by a secretary who wouldnot spend a penny
when a halfpenny would due

What Arthur Sutherland made of the spending in the Cox era heaven only knows

Another difference is that the club was saved by 2 men who were TOWN SUPPORTERS who cared for the club

The frustrating thing for me is that we have a great and lovely ground for a club of our stature. A ground that has the potential and facilities to deliver cash. We also have the potential to deliver attendances around 10000 if we were doing well and were customer friendly. Off the field we are managed poorly and incomprehensibly given that we are owned by a self made millionaire who built businesses. But in business and sport you are only has good as your next game. Brilliant business people sustain business after business. We need a change but I can't see it happening.

[azul]

whittman, on 16 October 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Back in the early 80s Arthur Cox spent heavily on transfer fees to try and get us into the then 2nd division

On deadline day 1980 I think we were the biggest spending club in all four divisions but we just failed
to reach the promised land

Just over 2 years later the club was within 10 minutes I heard of going out of exsistence until
Watterson and Hubbard stepped in to pay the debts

Cox in the meantime had jumped ship to Newcastle just after he realised his go for broke policy had not worked
leaving Frank Barlow to try and pick up thde pieces

We won the last ever Anglo/ Scottish Cup in 1981 but after that win we fell away and just failed again to go up

Imo some of the similarities between the policies of Cox and Cook are uncanny just as the reactions to the
failure to go up are

The only difference is that back in the day the club was run by a secretary who wouldnot spend a penny
when a halfpenny would due

What Arthur Sutherland made of the spending in the Cox era heaven only knows

Another difference is that the club was saved by 2 men who were TOWN SUPPORTERS who cared for the club

There are similarities between those era but to compare Cox's spending with Cook's is a bit misleading.

As you said transfer fees alone (and presumably corresponding wages) make comparison dubious. When you consider the infrastructure/turnover back then compared with Cook's era I think we should've maintained our progress. Cox's over spend on player wasn't sustainable after we failed to get promotion, not so sure about Cook's, as a vast sum of money was going elsewhere. And for god's sake don't mention the relative transfer income.

I'd love to see the accounts for 79/80 and compare them with 13/14 and 14/15

[Tha Knows...]

Bobby Darling, on 16 October 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

The frustrating thing for me is that we have a great and lovely ground for a club of our stature. A ground that has the potential and facilities to deliver cash. We also have the potential to deliver attendances around 10000 if we were doing well and were customer friendly. Off the field we are managed poorly and incomprehensibly given that we are owned by a self made millionaire who built businesses. But in business and sport you are only has good as your next game. Brilliant business people sustain business after business. We need a change but I can't see it happening.

We'd have to be a division higher to get 10k more than once a season

[dtp]

Elton John 1866, on 16 October 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Who signed them? Just asking

Shouldn't the question be regarding who signed/re--signed the players taking up the biggest percentage of the budget?

[RikShaw]

S43_Spireite, on 16 October 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

The way I see it is this..............DA went for broke with Cook, throwing large sums of cash at getting us into the Championship, thinking that we would be getting full houses week in week out.........because this didn't happen (and quite frankly he was a little over optimistic) he decided to claw back his money (or rather show those terrible fans)

We are working within a budget set by DA, he has no interest in Football and I don't think he even wanted to be Chairman here, he was cajoled into it...........what we have now is what we will have until Dave has his money back or until someone with mega cash and who is a Chesterfield Supporter, buys him out...........a shoestring Team who yo yo up and down.

The Cook era spoiled us, showed us what we COULD have with lots of investment and now we expect no less, unfortunately those days are now just a memory. In My Opinion of course

I think the fact that only 8400 fans turned up to watch the home leg of the Playoff semi-final against Preston confirmed to DA that the fan base is just not there to justify his ambitions. Let's face it, it should have been a sell-out (with Preston being given the end two blocks of the East Stand only).

The fact we didn't sellout, I reckon was the turning point when DA realised his gamble to get CFC into the Championship couldn't be sustained, specifically when you compare expected revenue with necessary levels of investment required to reach the 2nd tier.

For me its game over folks.

[whittman]

Maverick, on 17 October 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

I think the fact that only 8400 fans turned up to watch the home leg of the Playoff semi-final against Preston confirmed to DA that the fan base is just not there to justify his ambitions. Let's face it, it should have been a sell-out (with Preston being given the end two blocks of the East Stand only).

The fact we didn't sellout, I reckon was the turning point when DA realised his gamble to get CFC into the Championship couldn't be sustained, specifically when you compare expected revenue with necessary levels of investment required to reach the 2nd tier.

For me its game over folks.

The off the field rumours at the time meant that the buzz for the playoffs was not quite as it should have been hence the lower than hoped for crowd

Also being live on Sky would have meant good business for most of the pubs in the area I would have thought

[ELTON 2020]

Maverick, on 17 October 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

I think the fact that only 8400 fans turned up to watch the home leg of the Playoff semi-final against Preston confirmed to DA that the fan base is just not there to justify his ambitions. Let's face it, it should have been a sell-out (with Preston being given the end two blocks of the East Stand only).

The fact we didn't sellout, I reckon was the turning point when DA realised his gamble to get CFC into the Championship couldn't be sustained, specifically when you compare expected revenue with necessary levels of investment required to reach the 2nd tier.

For me its game over folks.

That should have sold out big stlye. Allen does have a very fair point when it comes to the stay away 1000 -1500 fans at the wide part of the customer funnel. Without these attending more than twice a year, who can blame him for his approach - I can't!

[CFC91]

Maverick, on 17 October 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

I think the fact that only 8400 fans turned up to watch the home leg of the Playoff semi-final against Preston confirmed to DA that the fan base is just not there to justify his ambitions. Let's face it, it should have been a sell-out (with Preston being given the end two blocks of the East Stand only).

The fact we didn't sellout, I reckon was the turning point when DA realised his gamble to get CFC into the Championship couldn't be sustained, specifically when you compare expected revenue with necessary levels of investment required to reach the 2nd tier.

For me its game over folks.

Sad but true. Can't knock the fans as they have turned out and grounds have grown massively but that game should have sold out in the home end (even with Preston only bringing 1200), no excuses.

[The Black Triangle]

Maverick, on 17 October 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

I think the fact that only 8400 fans turned up to watch the home leg of the Playoff semi-final against Preston confirmed to DA that the fan base is just not there to justify his ambitions. Let's face it, it should have been a sell-out (with Preston being given the end two blocks of the East Stand only).

The fact we didn't sellout, I reckon was the turning point when DA realised his gamble to get CFC into the Championship couldn't be sustained, specifically when you compare expected revenue with necessary levels of investment required to reach the 2nd tier.

For me its game over folks.

The turning point was way before that. Cast your mind back to the pre season following our title win. Look at the players Cook signed, such as Onovwigun. Look at the pre season games, and Cook not having a full bench. Then we sold Cooper and bought Clucas. Bocce signed on such a low wage he had to work in a pie factory.
Fast forward 4 months, we had the club hawking Doyle and took the first genuine offer on the table. Then signed the £15k superstar from Stevenage(I can't even remember his name, such was his impact on the side).
No, DA had pulled the plug on his ambitions way before we Played Preston. DA only ambition now is to get as much of his money back as possible. I expect, following the release of Angel and Ebanks-Blake, the budget to be cut still further if Wilson keeps us up. Something like SEB wages to the manager, and Angels wages to the debt situation.

This post has been edited by The Gimp: 17 October 2016 - 03:35 PM