[Goku]

KevinArnottsGoldenBoot, on 12 October 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

There isn't a victim. As it stands, there is no crime.

No one cares what she wore. No one suggested any woman should be forced to fight anyone off. In her own words she was 'tipsy, but not out of control', so she wasn't even particularly drunk, by her own admission.

The one-night stand element of the case is, that according to witnesses, the same 'bedroom talk' was used by the woman in concensual sexual encounters she didn't consider rape as was used in the 'encounter' with McDonald and Evans. You'd realise the obvious implications of this for defence counsel if you weren't such a gimp yourself.

Go back to dim views reply which shows you don't have a clue what you're talking about with regards to this case. Why people come into this thread talking garbage when the information is only a simple Google away baffles me.

She wasn't even particularly drunk by her own admission? This is direct from the case notes:

"The CCTV footage showed that while she was inside the kebab shop she was unsteady on her feet, at one point she fell over and landed on the floor. On the other hand, outside the kebab shop she could be seen eating pizza from a large box, although she was also seen to stumble, squat, lose her balance, and walk unsteadily. Indeed, she left her handbag in the shop. Based on this evidence, the prosecution case was that she was very drunk

The complainant had no recollection of anything which took place after 3am. That extended to the fact that she and McDonald entered the hotel at 4.15am. The night porter described her as "extremely drunk"."

So uh shut ur mouth?

This post has been edited by Goku: 13 October 2016 - 06:15 AM

[Goku]

Ernie Ernie Ernie, on 12 October 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

Should just leave it to the judge and jury

I think I retract my reply to Mr. Mercury and now I agree with him lol

[Goku]

Bonnyman, on 12 October 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

Its hypothetically speaking but it has been said that she thought her drink may have been spiked
..seems strange that a pro footballer would try to pull a girl that was completely out of it,presumably if she had got drink spiked it was prior to meeting them , the drink spiking could have relevance

No offence mate but you could really do with a quick read of the case notes because you're talking about something irrelevant at this point. She said her drink may have been spiked but this was just her assumption (I've heard this loads of times from blokes and lasses who've had too much to drink - they immediately think it was cos their drink was spiked rather than them just drinking too much ale) and it was proven that this wasn't the case.

He didn't try and pull her either, he obtained the hotel room key via deception and walked in on her and McDonald having sex and then that's where it gets murky. She doesn't remember anything but that's not the issue, I'm sure a lot of us have had one night stands and woken up not remembering anything despite being able to consent at the time - it's more about her level of consciousness from what I can tell - was she in a fit enough state to consent at the time? Was she drifting in and out of consciousness? Was she at that dim alcohol-induced level of consciousness where you're aware of things in the background but they're just faint and don't really seem real? That's the main issue.

Brief case notes here for anyone who wants to read; https://www.crimelin...s-chedwyn-evans

This isn't in those notes, it's from the latest trial but Ched says his reasoning for going to the hotel was to tell McDonald that their friend had been sent down. Why not just call him instead of getting a taxi there? This along with the leaving via a fire escape whilst walking home with snapped ligaments in his ankle, lying to obtain a key to the room and purposely tucking his head down and away from a CCTV camera (footage provided to the court) - surely this casts doubts on the man's actions and his claim that he was going to see McDonald to tell him about his mate and how he felt leaving the hotel room after whatever occurred inside?

This post has been edited by Goku: 13 October 2016 - 06:56 AM

[Westbars Spireite]

I wish it would hurry up and be over. I'm sick of seeing him being named as a Chesterfield player and associating us with this whole unpleasant episode.

[dim view]

Goku, on 13 October 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

This isn't in those notes, it's from the latest trial but Ched says his reasoning for going to the hotel was to tell McDonald that their friend had been sent down. Why not just call him instead of getting a taxi there? This along with the leaving via a fire escape whilst walking home with snapped ligaments in his ankle, lying to obtain a key to the room and purposely tucking his head down and away from a CCTV camera (footage provided to the court) - surely this casts doubts on the man's actions and his claim that he was going to see McDonald to tell him about his mate and how he felt leaving the hotel room after whatever occurred inside?

To me, the most damning undisputed evidence is that he entered the darkened room as a stranger. How did he know that the woman would not be terrified? I think he would have to admit that that fact never crossed his mind.

What's happening here is that today's judge is allowing evidence that the previous judge didn't. That will be the basis of the post match debate.

[Bonnyman]

Goku, on 13 October 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

No offence mate but you could really do with a quick read of the case notes because you're talking about something irrelevant at this point. She said her drink may have been spiked but this was just her assumption (I've heard this loads of times from blokes and lasses who've had too much to drink - they immediately think it was cos their drink was spiked rather than them just drinking too much ale) and it was proven that this wasn't the case.

He didn't try and pull her either, he obtained the hotel room key via deception and walked in on her and McDonald having sex and then that's where it gets murky. She doesn't remember anything but that's not the issue, I'm sure a lot of us have had one night stands and woken up not remembering anything despite being able to consent at the time - it's more about her level of consciousness from what I can tell - was she in a fit enough state to consent at the time? Was she drifting in and out of consciousness? Was she at that dim alcohol-induced level of consciousness where you're aware of things in the background but they're just faint and don't really seem real? That's the main issue.

Brief case notes here for anyone who wants to read; https://www.crimelin...s-chedwyn-evans

This isn't in those notes, it's from the latest trial but Ched says his reasoning for going to the hotel was to tell McDonald that their friend had been sent down. Why not just call him instead of getting a taxi there? This along with the leaving via a fire escape whilst walking home with snapped ligaments in his ankle, lying to obtain a key to the room and purposely tucking his head down and away from a CCTV camera (footage provided to the court) - surely this casts doubts on the man's actions and his claim that he was going to see McDonald to tell him about his mate and how he felt leaving the hotel room after whatever occurred inside?

To be honest i could not care less, either way somebody loses.

[Goku]

Bonnyman, on 13 October 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

To be honest i could not care less, either way somebody loses.

You are truly a wise old sage indeed.

[Sammy Spireite]

"A witness giving evidence at the Ched Evans rape retrial told a court his relationship with the alleged victim was 'purely sexual'.

The jury heard the man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, had sex with the girl, 19, five or six time after meeting her on Facebook.

Cardiff Crown Court heard the teenage waitress stayed at his house two nights before the alleged rape by the 27-year-old footballer in the Premier Inn - and she demanded he "rip her clothes off".

The man also told the court the woman was “confident” in bed and said she “dictated” the positions before Facebook messages between the pair were read to the jury."

[Brookie]

It seems to me that the evidence suggests the alleged victim was confident and experienced in sexual matters, it still doesn't determine that rape may, or may not, have taken place

[dim view]

Brookie, on 13 October 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

It seems to me that the evidence suggests the alleged victim was confident and experienced in sexual matters, it still doesn't determine that rape may, or may not, have taken place

Good point and one shared by the original judge. This judge thinks different though, as do the Appeal judges.

[Tha Knows...]

dim view, on 13 October 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

Good point and one shared by the original judge. This judge thinks different though, as do the Appeal judges.

Female judge fwiw

[plannerj]

Goku, on 13 October 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

No offence mate but you could really do with a quick read of the case notes because you're talking about something irrelevant at this point. She said her drink may have been spiked but this was just her assumption (I've heard this loads of times from blokes and lasses who've had too much to drink - they immediately think it was cos their drink was spiked rather than them just drinking too much ale) and it was proven that this wasn't the case.

He didn't try and pull her either, he obtained the hotel room key via deception and walked in on her and McDonald having sex and then that's where it gets murky. She doesn't remember anything but that's not the issue, I'm sure a lot of us have had one night stands and woken up not remembering anything despite being able to consent at the time - it's more about her level of consciousness from what I can tell - was she in a fit enough state to consent at the time? Was she drifting in and out of consciousness? Was she at that dim alcohol-induced level of consciousness where you're aware of things in the background but they're just faint and don't really seem real? That's the main issue.

Brief case notes here for anyone who wants to read; https://www.crimelin...s-chedwyn-evans

This isn't in those notes, it's from the latest trial but Ched says his reasoning for going to the hotel was to tell McDonald that their friend had been sent down. Why not just call him instead of getting a taxi there? This along with the leaving via a fire escape whilst walking home with snapped ligaments in his ankle, lying to obtain a key to the room and purposely tucking his head down and away from a CCTV camera (footage provided to the court) - surely this casts doubts on the man's actions and his claim that he was going to see McDonald to tell him about his mate and how he felt leaving the hotel room after whatever occurred inside?

What troubles me with your logic is that you say that it is possible after a one night stand not be able to recall what happened, yet there can be recognition that sex was consensual. If one is in no position to recall what happened how does it follow that the sex act was consensual? You can't have your cake and eat it or can you? As others have said, none of the participants in this sordid case have cause to be proud of their roles.

[Snowflake McBedwetter]

Goku, on 13 October 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

Go back to dim views reply which shows you don't have a clue what you're talking about with regards to this case. Why people come into this thread talking garbage when the information is only a simple Google away baffles me.

She wasn't even particularly drunk by her own admission? This is direct from the case notes:

"The CCTV footage showed that while she was inside the kebab shop she was unsteady on her feet, at one point she fell over and landed on the floor. On the other hand, outside the kebab shop she could be seen eating pizza from a large box, although she was also seen to stumble, squat, lose her balance, and walk unsteadily. Indeed, she left her handbag in the shop. Based on this evidence, the prosecution case was that she was very drunk

The complainant had no recollection of anything which took place after 3am. That extended to the fact that she and McDonald entered the hotel at 4.15am. The night porter described her as "extremely drunk"."

So uh shut ur mouth?

She said she "was tipsy, but not out of control". A CCTV camera can't tell you how drunk someone is.

To anyone with a brain, there's obviously a big difference between being slightly unsteady on your feet, and being so wasted you experience (so far) permanent memory loss.

What part of that do you not understand? What part of "she wasn't even particularly drunk, by her own admission" doesn't make sense in relation to that quote from the complainant herself!?

You really ought to quit while you're behind.

[azul]

Westbars Spireite, on 13 October 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

I wish it would hurry up and be over. I'm sick of seeing him being named as a Chesterfield player and associating us with this whole unpleasant episode.

Well if it improves DA's bank balance after his sale, it will be all worthwhile

[Tha Knows...]

From the evidence I have read I would find it difficult to decide if she was so drunk she did not know she was having sex. There is an element of doubt imo and for that reason it would be unsafe to convict. I haven't read Macdonald's evidence from the initial trial, which I gather is excluded from this trial, but it might have been of some value/relevance in assessing the condition of the girl when Evans arrived?

[azul]

Spire-Power, on 13 October 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

From the evidence I have read I would find it difficult to decide if she was so drunk she did not know she was having sex. There is an element of doubt imo and for that reason it would be unsafe to convict. I haven't read Macdonald's evidence from the initial trial, which I gather is excluded from this trial, but it might have been of some value/relevance in assessing the condition of the girl when Evans arrived?

That surprises me as you would think he was an importanrt witness to the nights event. Far more relevant than theses witnesses being called to question her chastity.

Anway I'm sure that doubt was there in the previous trial and subsequent appeal

[Tha Knows...]

KevinArnottsGoldenBoot, on 13 October 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

She said she "was tipsy, but not out of control". A CCTV camera can't tell you how drunk someone is.

To anyone with a brain, there's obviously a big difference between being slightly unsteady on your feet, and being so wasted you experience (so far) permanent memory loss.

Theres little doubt she was drunk but its whether she was so drunk she couldnt give consent. If she couldn't remember doing it the next morning, does that 100% mean she wasn't able to agree to it at the time it happened?

[Heavy_Soul]

Defence claim prosecution case is 'built around a myth'

Ms Khan told the jury: “We suggest to you that the prosecution case is built around a myth.

“It has been persistent, spanning five years, but it is utterly unrealistic when you view it against the rest of the evidence in this case.

“The evidence shows that despite her apparent memory blackout, the complainant was capable of making rational decisions.

“Drunken consent is nevertheless consent. While disinhibited through drink, she did consent to sex - first with Clayton McDonald and then with Ched Evans.

“Lack of memory does not equal lack of consent.”


Defence barrister Judith Khan QC reminded the jury the complainant sent a text message to a friend at 2.54am.

She described the text as “coherent, logical and rational”.
Ms Khan suggested the Crown’s case is that the jury can look at the CCTV footage from The Godfather takeaway and see how drunk the woman was in the hotel room.

The defence barrister accepted the woman was drunk in the takeaway, but suggested it was her “impossibly high shoes” that made her fall over.

She added: “Even though she was clearly intoxicated in The Godfather, you may think that was actually the height of her intoxication.

“There is no evidence she had anything else to drink after that and she had eaten.

“How she presented in The Godfather is not necessarily any indication of what she was like in the hotel room.”

The defence barrister reminded the jury the night receptionist said Mr McDonald and the complainant looked like”a normal couple”.

She added: “It is quite wrong to assume that lack of memory equals lack of capacity to consent.

“She was moving around and making rational decisions. Drunk consent is still consent.”

Ms Khan is discussing the taxi journey from the takeaway to the hotel.

She reminded the jury the cab driver told the complainant she had to sit in the front if she wanted eat.

The defence barrister suggested the fact she moved showed she could understand instructions and make rational decisions.

This post has been edited by Heavy_Soul: 13 October 2016 - 11:30 AM

[DMU Blue]

I can drink 5 pints and be tipsy but totally coherent but not remember walking home sometimes. It's odd. Something I've always had. General crap memory combined with a few pints.

[Heavy_Soul]

The defence barrister is now reminding the jury of what night receptionist Gavin Burrough heard outside the door of Room 14.
He told the court he heard “a couple having sex”.
Prosecutors suggested that was the sound of Clayton McDonald having sex with the complainant, but Ms Khan suggested that was “guesswork and speculation”.
She suggested it was the sound of Evans having sex with the woman.
She said: “’A couple having sex.’ That is a two-way process. He did not say he heard a man ‘doing sex to a woman’ as Mr Medland had it in his opening.”
The court previously heard the receptionist heard a male voice say: “Are you going to suck that c*** or what?”
Ms Khan said: “The evidence is he heard that said in a playful way. A playful, normal tone. Not the way it was said by Mr Medland at all.”
She added: “Nothing that Mr Burrough heard caused him to seek to intervene.”

Defence barrister Judith Khan QC suggested the bruises found on the alleged victim’s body were “meaningless”.

She said: “Mr Medland has barely mentioned them.”

Ms Khan added the bruises were consistent with someone falling over and walking into things, which could be expected, as the woman was drunk.

This post has been edited by Heavy_Soul: 13 October 2016 - 11:39 AM