[dalekpete]

I didn’t know what tenure had been offered to Lee and I never thought it particularly important. After all how many managers reach the end of the contract before their future is determined?

I think we have under-achieved this season. Part of this has to be down to the manager. It is his first season as a number one and perfection cannot be expected. I have no doubt that the money spent puts us near the top of the league. However I trust that enough prudence has been shown to enable us to try again next year.

Does our lack of progress in league terms mean that Lee should not be allowed to continue?

I would like to think that with a progress towards a new ground and set-up that we are really moving on. What seems to have confirmed Lee’s position is a revamp of the whole off-field football structure. This is a real step forward but because of the size of our Club is dependent on individuals. This affects changes; I doubt whether we could replace the entire backroom staff.

My dream is a club that emulates Crewe Alexandra. When Dario Gradi took over he finished 16th, 10th, 12th, 17th & 17th in the bottom division. For much of this time he suffered abuse on the terraces. However he was given time to develop his plans off the field and eventually his club became one that regularly played at Championship level. I want to see an infrastructure that allows proper scouting, coaching and youth development. This includes an acceptance locally that Chesterfield is the natural club to join to get on in the game.

It seems that our Board is starting to see the opportunities out there. A new coaching set-up is in place, a new ground planned and new training facilities under discussion. Steps are also being taken in youth football relations and Chesterfield FC in the Community. Lee Richardson seems to be in tune with these aspirations.

You cannot excuse on-field failings because of long-term off-field plans. This is because crowds, commercial dealings and prestige depend on a certain amount of success. We couldn’t sustain a five year plan like Crewe’s became as we start from a much higher level of expectation. I am not entirely sure Lee will grow into the role; I think often he tries too hard. Sometimes if you have the tools the simple approach is what is needed. Experience shows you less can be more.

My call would be to leave Lee where he is but explain what he had done and what is expected of him. However I would expect clear evidence of on-field progress before Christmas regardless of building behind the scenes.

[marlons curtains]

dalekpete, on Apr 20 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

I didn’t know what tenure had been offered to Lee and I never thought it particularly important. After all how many managers reach the end of the contract before their future is determined?

I think we have under-achieved this season. Part of this has to be down to the manager. It is his first season as a number one and perfection cannot be expected. I have no doubt that the money spent puts us near the top of the league. However I trust that enough prudence has been shown to enable us to try again next year.

Does our lack of progress in league terms mean that Lee should not be allowed to continue?

I would like to think that with a progress towards a new ground and set-up that we are really moving on. What seems to have confirmed Lee’s position is a revamp of the whole off-field football structure. This is a real step forward but because of the size of our Club is dependent on individuals. This affects changes; I doubt whether we could replace the entire backroom staff.

My dream is a club that emulates Crewe Alexandra. When Dario Gradi took over he finished 16th, 10th, 12th, 17th & 17th in the bottom division. For much of this time he suffered abuse on the terraces. However he was given time to develop his plans off the field and eventually his club became one that regularly played at Championship level. I want to see an infrastructure that allows proper scouting, coaching and youth development. This includes an acceptance locally that Chesterfield is the natural club to join to get on in the game.

It seems that our Board is starting to see the opportunities out there. A new coaching set-up is in place, a new ground planned and new training facilities under discussion. Steps are also being taken in youth football relations and Chesterfield FC in the Community. Lee Richardson seems to be in tune with these aspirations.

You cannot excuse on-field failings because of long-term off-field plans. This is because crowds, commercial dealings and prestige depend on a certain amount of success. We couldn’t sustain a five year plan like Crewe’s became as we start from a much higher level of expectation. I am not entirely sure Lee will grow into the role; I think often he tries too hard. Sometimes if you have the tools the simple approach is what is needed. Experience shows you less can be more.

My call would be to leave Lee where he is but explain what he had done and what is expected of him. However I would expect clear evidence of on-field progress before Christmas regardless of building behind the scenes.

Pete,
you make the point that Gradi was given a great deal of time to turn Crewe around, despite several years of mediocrity in the basement, as a model youd like us to emulate... yet possibly only prepared to give Lee til Christmas?

I think to a degree you are torn, and see its a different game now to when Gradi took over Crewe... even at our level, fans expect a more instant return, (rightly or wrongly), and there is no way in the modern age the fans will support 'behind the scenes' development and success, if it isnt occuring on the pitch.

[dalekpete]

marlons curtains, on Apr 20 2008, 10:59 PM, said:

Pete,
you make the point that Gradi was given a great deal of time to turn Crewe around, despite several years of mediocrity in the basement, as a model youd like us to emulate... yet possibly only prepared to give Lee til Christmas?

I think to a degree you are torn, and see its a different game now to when Gradi took over Crewe... even at our level, fans expect a more instant return, (rightly or wrongly), and there is no way in the modern age the fans will support 'behind the scenes' development and success, if it isnt occuring on the pitch.

Crewe's starting point was rather like Rochdale's now, a couple of decades of struggle. Our recent position makes promotion more of a priority.

[marlons curtains]

dalekpete, on Apr 20 2008, 11:04 PM, said:

Crewe's starting point was rather like Rochdale's now, a couple of decades of struggle. Our recent position makes promotion more of a priority.

Our success at league level hasnt been marvellous in the last 20 years... weve always been a club that if we go up, will struggle...(other than the money we threw at it in late 70s/early 80s.)
To the fans, promotion is the only priority...I dont want a period of five or so years getting out of this league, as we did in the nineties.
At the same time, I dont want us to risk our entire future in an attempt to do just that.

[Wooden Spoon]

dalekpete, on Apr 20 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

I didn’t know what tenure had been offered to Lee and I never thought it particularly important. After all how many managers reach the end of the contract before their future is determined?

I think we have under-achieved this season. Part of this has to be down to the manager. It is his first season as a number one and perfection cannot be expected. I have no doubt that the money spent puts us near the top of the league. However I trust that enough prudence has been shown to enable us to try again next year.

Does our lack of progress in league terms mean that Lee should not be allowed to continue?

I would like to think that with a progress towards a new ground and set-up that we are really moving on. What seems to have confirmed Lee’s position is a revamp of the whole off-field football structure. This is a real step forward but because of the size of our Club is dependent on individuals. This affects changes; I doubt whether we could replace the entire backroom staff.

My dream is a club that emulates Crewe Alexandra. When Dario Gradi took over he finished 16th, 10th, 12th, 17th & 17th in the bottom division. For much of this time he suffered abuse on the terraces. However he was given time to develop his plans off the field and eventually his club became one that regularly played at Championship level. I want to see an infrastructure that allows proper scouting, coaching and youth development. This includes an acceptance locally that Chesterfield is the natural club to join to get on in the game.

It seems that our Board is starting to see the opportunities out there. A new coaching set-up is in place, a new ground planned and new training facilities under discussion. Steps are also being taken in youth football relations and Chesterfield FC in the Community. Lee Richardson seems to be in tune with these aspirations.

You cannot excuse on-field failings because of long-term off-field plans. This is because crowds, commercial dealings and prestige depend on a certain amount of success. We couldn’t sustain a five year plan like Crewe’s became as we start from a much higher level of expectation. I am not entirely sure Lee will grow into the role; I think often he tries too hard. Sometimes if you have the tools the simple approach is what is needed. Experience shows you less can be more.

My call would be to leave Lee where he is but explain what he had done and what is expected of him. However I would expect clear evidence of on-field progress before Christmas regardless of building behind the scenes.

I would think of it more like a poor mans Bolton W than Crewe.

I saw a few years ago that it costs £500k a year to run the acadamy at Crewe, a huge expense, but Boltons tactic in recent years of `spotting` waifs and strays, and gelling them into a team has to be the way forward for CFC.

Injuries seem to be reduced this year, so maybe the fitness coach is doing something right, but look at the signings that have been made, and just not played or flopped. Too many this season for the team to have made progress.

Cooper, Malony, the kid from Man Utd, and others have been signed, paid, and made no impact whatsoever.

LR has had a season in the hot seat, and not exactly impressed. Next season he has to hit the floor running, get some early results, and convince a very sceptical chesterfield public that he is the man for the job.

[paulwardle]

It's easy to try and look at the longer term position in excusing what has gone on this season and it is also easy to simply blame the manager and sack him.

My concerns, that lead me to not purchasing a season ticket this season, were mainly down to the inexperience of richardson as a Manager and I believe that this has cost us dearly as he, like two of our main players (Roache and Downes) has made many mistakes. He admits this.

Looking at the teams above us well, we can't cite lack of money when we see Rochdale, Stockport, Wycombe and Hereford above us. Their managers have done their jobs well, with resources similar to our own.

I would also pinpoint the simple fact that when Alan Knill went to Bury, just look how their season has turned around? they were simply awful when we played them at Christmas, but Knill has got something out of those players that Richardson has failed to do at Chesterfield.

I am all for looking to a longer term plan, but this is not always easy in football and to do it you have to have the right structure and the right people in place. I believe that in Richardson this is not the case and we should let him go NOW and get ourselves someone who can put some steel back into our side. Richardson has been linked with the Club for 3/4 years now and in that time we have not made any progress on the field and realistically there has been little progress off the field.

With two games left we might as well give the young goalkkeeper a go and for goodness sake get Kovacs back in the side.

I will not be purchasing a season ticket again next season if Richardson is still in the job.

[bluespireite]

paulwardle, on Apr 21 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

It's easy to try and look at the longer term position in excusing what has gone on this season and it is also easy to simply blame the manager and sack him.

My concerns, that lead me to not purchasing a season ticket this season, were mainly down to the inexperience of richardson as a Manager and I believe that this has cost us dearly as he, like two of our main players (Roache and Downes) has made many mistakes. He admits this.

Looking at the teams above us well, we can't cite lack of money when we see Rochdale, Stockport, Wycombe and Hereford above us. Their managers have done their jobs well, with resources similar to our own.

I would also pinpoint the simple fact that when Alan Knill went to Bury, just look how their season has turned around? they were simply awful when we played them at Christmas, but Knill has got something out of those players that Richardson has failed to do at Chesterfield.

I am all for looking to a longer term plan, but this is not always easy in football and to do it you have to have the right structure and the right people in place. I believe that in Richardson this is not the case and we should let him go NOW and get ourselves someone who can put some steel back into our side. Richardson has been linked with the Club for 3/4 years now and in that time we have not made any progress on the field and realistically there has been little progress off the field.

With two games left we might as well give the young goalkkeeper a go and for goodness sake get Kovacs back in the side.

I will not be purchasing a season ticket again next season if Richardson is still in the job.

We haven't lost since Kovacs was dropped, is that significant.

[firedodger]

bluespireite, on Apr 21 2008, 09:49 AM, said:

We haven't lost since Kovacs was dropped, is that significant.

not necessarily as significant as that being the same time hawkins came in.

[Spired]

I respect your opinion, Pete...but comparing Lee Richardson to Dario Gradi is almost laughable.

Gradi took over at Crewe when they were really struggling in division 4. He did blend and mix youth well with the first team and as a result produced Murphy, Ashton etc. However...and please understand this...he also knew how to get his side to play football and what players to sign.

2 qualities Lee Richardson hasn't the foggiest on.

He had Dele Adebola as the powerhouse upfront...all I remember is Duncans' town reeling and being marmalised within the opening 20 minutes at Gresty Road some years back by a really good side with the right blend of players.

Richardson is a long way off being Dario Gradi. Had a young Dario Gradi taken over at Chesterfield FC this season...upon playing Ben Algar and his performances being impressive....he'd have kept him in the mix. He'd have played O'Hare, not released Davies. Heck Dario wouldn't have let Hazel go and kept an peaked average Scottish midfielder with a cost to the tune of a 6 figure sum.

No. Pete...as I said before I respect your opinion but the paralels you are attempt to make are as off target as a Niven effort from 30 yards.

[firedodger]

dalekpete, on Apr 20 2008, 11:04 PM, said:

Crewe's starting point was rather like Rochdale's now, a couple of decades of struggle. Our recent position makes promotion more of a priority.

all the things you mention off the field are just good sound common sense things that a football club with ambition should have in place,so if you change the manager he should be onside with all of that anyway,and if he isnt then he's most likely not the man for the job.dpending on who you choose they may have prior experience of taking a club through that period of development which may be beneficial.
i'm not a big fan of changing managers midseason,its rare that it pays off and its tidier to do it in the summer so the new man gets time to work with and on the squad,and make it more of his own creation.
lee richardson and the club are victims of their own naivety/stupidity with all the pre season big talk,i honestly feel that if the club had come out pre season and said something along the lines of its a transitional time at the club,a lot of money needed to fund off field projects like the ground/training facilities/youth development,we cant commit the kind of money we would like to the playing side,that said we are commited to providing entertaining attacking football at saltergate,hopefully this will all come together to provide a solid foundation for the club to move forward, firstly supporters would not have been given this amount of scope to criticize,and i also dont think it would have damaged attendances.

[dalekpete]

Spired, on Apr 21 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

I respect your opinion, Pete...but comparing Lee Richardson to Dario Gradi is almost laughable.

Gradi took over at Crewe when they were really struggling in division 4. He did blend and mix youth well with the first team and as a result produced Murphy, Ashton etc. However...and please understand this...he also knew how to get his side to play football and what players to sign.

2 qualities Lee Richardson hasn't the foggiest on.

How do their first seasons compare?

Did Gradi really hit the ground running, particularly as his team was still in the lower third of the bottom division after five years?

There have been times when we have played exceptional football this term but we have lacked consistancy. The same can be said of our signings.

Dele Adebola made his debut in Gradi's first season but really only made an impact three years later. Another example is Darren Foreman who he made Crewe's record signing but released on a free to Scarborough within a year; he is considered by some their worst ever player. No one is perfect.

You cannot compare a twenty-five year veteran with a one-season rookie. My point was more about planning and development and the time allowed.

[Hoare (400)]

dalekpete, on Apr 21 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

How do their first seasons compare?

Did Gradi really hit the ground running, particularly as his team was still in the lower third of the bottom division after five years?

There have been times when we have played exceptional football this term but we have lacked consistancy. The same can be said of our signings.

Dele Adebola made his debut in Gradi's first season but really only made an impact three years later. Another example is Darren Foreman who he made Crewe's record signing but released on a free to Scarborough within a year; he is considered by some their worst ever player. No one is perfect.

You cannot compare a twenty-five year veteran with a one-season rookie. My point was more about planning and development and the time allowed.

Having spent most of the season in the top 8, attendances are poor are they not?
If Richardson was to stay, and we were top 5, do you beleive attendances would improve dramatically, or would those stay aways just lose intrest altogether?


Hoare (400)

[h again]

Spired, on Apr 21 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

I respect your opinion, Pete...but comparing Lee Richardson to Dario Gradi is almost laughable.

Gradi took over at Crewe when they were really struggling in division 4. He did blend and mix youth well with the first team and as a result produced Murphy, Ashton etc. However...and please understand this...he also knew how to get his side to play football and what players to sign.

2 qualities Lee Richardson hasn't the foggiest on.

He had Dele Adebola as the powerhouse upfront...all I remember is Duncans' town reeling and being marmalised within the opening 20 minutes at Gresty Road some years back by a really good side with the right blend of players.

Richardson is a long way off being Dario Gradi. Had a young Dario Gradi taken over at Chesterfield FC this season...upon playing Ben Algar and his performances being impressive....he'd have kept him in the mix. He'd have played O'Hare, not released Davies. Heck Dario wouldn't have let Hazel go and kept an peaked average Scottish midfielder with a cost to the tune of a 6 figure sum.
No. Pete...as I said before I respect your opinion but the paralels you are attempt to make are as off target as a Niven effort from 30 yards.

You haven't a clue what Gradi would have done, and presenting your opinions as his is simply dishonest. The only parallel is that both were/are young managers new to the job. Gradi was given time to get results,but times have changed. Rico will not get anything at all if he hasn't produced something out of the hat by Christmas.

[Skywalker]

dalekpete, on Apr 20 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

I didn’t know what tenure had been offered to Lee and I never thought it particularly important. After all how many managers reach the end of the contract before their future is determined?

I think we have under-achieved this season. Part of this has to be down to the manager. It is his first season as a number one and perfection cannot be expected. I have no doubt that the money spent puts us near the top of the league. However I trust that enough prudence has been shown to enable us to try again next year.

Does our lack of progress in league terms mean that Lee should not be allowed to continue?

I would like to think that with a progress towards a new ground and set-up that we are really moving on. What seems to have confirmed Lee’s position is a revamp of the whole off-field football structure. This is a real step forward but because of the size of our Club is dependent on individuals. This affects changes; I doubt whether we could replace the entire backroom staff.

My dream is a club that emulates Crewe Alexandra. When Dario Gradi took over he finished 16th, 10th, 12th, 17th & 17th in the bottom division. For much of this time he suffered abuse on the terraces. However he was given time to develop his plans off the field and eventually his club became one that regularly played at Championship level. I want to see an infrastructure that allows proper scouting, coaching and youth development. This includes an acceptance locally that Chesterfield is the natural club to join to get on in the game.

It seems that our Board is starting to see the opportunities out there. A new coaching set-up is in place, a new ground planned and new training facilities under discussion. Steps are also being taken in youth football relations and Chesterfield FC in the Community. Lee Richardson seems to be in tune with these aspirations.

You cannot excuse on-field failings because of long-term off-field plans. This is because crowds, commercial dealings and prestige depend on a certain amount of success. We couldn’t sustain a five year plan like Crewe’s became as we start from a much higher level of expectation. I am not entirely sure Lee will grow into the role; I think often he tries too hard. Sometimes if you have the tools the simple approach is what is needed. Experience shows you less can be more.

My call would be to leave Lee where he is but explain what he had done and what is expected of him. However I would expect clear evidence of on-field progress before Christmas regardless of building behind the scenes.

Good summary Pete. It's a difficult balancing act trying to get the short term, mid term and long term plans right. If like you said, the long term planning is heading in the right direction then this is a step in the right direction. Let's hope if LR stay's in charge he can rectify the short and mid term and get us promoted next season.

[Spired]

dalekpete, on Apr 21 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

How do their first seasons compare?

Did Gradi really hit the ground running, particularly as his team was still in the lower third of the bottom division after five years?

There have been times when we have played exceptional football this term but we have lacked consistancy. The same can be said of our signings.

Dele Adebola made his debut in Gradi's first season but really only made an impact three years later. Another example is Darren Foreman who he made Crewe's record signing but released on a free to Scarborough within a year; he is considered by some their worst ever player. No one is perfect.

You cannot compare a twenty-five year veteran with a one-season rookie. My point was more about planning and development and the time allowed.

Gradi did not adopt a side as talented as Rico has. Nor did he take on a side that was in the league above the season before...certainly not. Instead he took over a side that had finished the 82/83 season as follows:-

English Division 4 MK Dons 3-2 Crewe 19-04-1983
English Division 4 Hull City 1-0 Crewe 23-04-1983
English Division 4 Crewe 0-2 MK Dons 30-04-1983
English Division 4 Bristol C 2-1 Crewe 07-05-1983
English Division 4 Crewe 0-1 Tranmere 13-05-1983

So with that cleared up...he took on a job at one of the smallest clubs in the league at that time, with no money and no decent players. Richardson on the other hand took on a club that has a reasonable budget at this level...he inherited a great side and Jack Lester is being funded somehow and thrown into the equation.

Please don't compare Dario Gradi...a man who had to build a side and football club out of nothing...to Lee Richardson...a man who has dismantled a side and eventually doubtlessly a club and its fanbase in quicktime.

[Spired]

Skywalker, on Apr 21 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

Good summary Pete. It's a difficult balancing act trying to get the short term, mid term and long term plans right. If like you said, the long term planning is heading in the right direction then this is a step in the right direction. Let's hope if LR stay's in charge he can rectify the short and mid term and get us promoted next season.

The short, medium and long term plans are time buying smokescreens used in business. I would happily subscribe to this for the off-field stadium plan ideas etc. However... the product and department in question is the playing side. The causation of the problems and they can see failed remedies being attempted is Lee Richardson.

In short...in business...managers get sacked for not knowing how to run a business. Lee Richardson manages the football team. And he doesn't know how to manage it. It is abundantly clear he knows next to nothing on how to create a plan B in a game. If things aren't working for town (Peterborough away perhaps aside)...I don't see any real changes made during games. I see a man with arms folded...I then hear how Danny North did this and that...blah blah blah.

A pathetic man who has blamed everything but himself. He deserves all the contempt he is receiving. And more.

[dalekpete]

Spired, on Apr 21 2008, 01:15 PM, said:

Please don't compare Dario Gradi...a man who had to build a side and football club out of nothing...to Lee Richardson...a man who has dismantled a side and eventually doubtlessly a club and its fanbase in quicktime.

Achieving 16th place in his first season was a success when the club normally flirted with re-election. However four years later they finished in an even lower position. Who now would allow that to happen? More than that, at that point who would have considered such a record the mark of a competent manager? However after two successive 17th finishes did the Crewe Board make the right decision in letting him continue? Their decision then was almost certainly based on the building off the field rather than results on it.

[Frank Thacker]

Hoare (400), on Apr 21 2008, 12:27 PM, said:

If Richardson was to stay, and we were top 5, do you beleive attendances would improve dramatically, or would those stay aways just lose intrest altogether?
Hoare (400)

It will always take a longer run of success to bring people in, than the run of failure needed to put them off. I'd say we'd be playing to 4500 of our own fans in this division, maximum, whoever the manager was, if we're successful. Do you envisage a situation where Richardson goes, we're top five and playing to more than if Richardson stays and we're top five?

[Spired]

dalekpete, on Apr 21 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

Achieving 16th place in his first season was a success when the club normally flirted with re-election. However four years later they finished in an even lower position. Who now would allow that to happen? More than that, at that point who would have considered such a record the mark of a competent manager? However after two successive 17th finishes did the Crewe Board make the right decision in letting him continue? Their decision then was almost certainly based on the building off the field rather than results on it.

Even if we built the Emerites at Dema...what the flip will that have to do with Rico playing Downes constantly in it when he's out of form?

It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. Dario Gradi had his hands seriously tied at Crewe Alex...Rico doesn't have that here. Although he might have that excuse under 3400 gates next season. 3399 more than he deserves.

17th and slightly lower were relative successes for Gradi as Crewe were in dire straits. If you want to compare and contrast fairly then perhaps it should be based on if Chesterfield were still in league one when Rico first took over.

I'd certainly take 17th this season in league one and then 19th the season after with a view to progression at a later date. However, Gradi didn't go down with Crewe...get given one of the best strikers in that respective league and the league above to play with...and then instruct his side to aimlessly punt the ball.

Dario Gradi's Crewe were marvellous to watch...and even if they struggled at first in league football...as you say they were starting from the bottom of division 4. We started this season as one of the strongest teams in the league.

big difference there.

Saltergate Stu, on Apr 21 2008, 01:32 PM, said:

It will always take a longer run of success to bring people in, than the run of failure needed to put them off. I'd say we'd be playing to 4500 of our own fans in this division, maximum, whoever the manager was, if we're successful. Do you envisage a situation where Richardson goes, we're top five and playing to more than if Richardson stays and we're top five?

The average gate was just under 5000 in 2001 season. Reputably understated too.

[Skywalker]

Spired, on Apr 21 2008, 01:22 PM, said:

The short, medium and long term plans are time buying smokescreens used in business. I would happily subscribe to this for the off-field stadium plan ideas etc. However... the product and department in question is the playing side. The causation of the problems and they can see failed remedies being attempted is Lee Richardson.

In short...in business...managers get sacked for not knowing how to run a business. Lee Richardson manages the football team. And he doesn't know how to manage it. It is abundantly clear he knows next to nothing on how to create a plan B in a game. If things aren't working for town (Peterborough away perhaps aside)...I don't see any real changes made during games. I see a man with arms folded...I then hear how Danny North did this and that...blah blah blah.

A pathetic man who has blamed everything but himself. He deserves all the contempt he is receiving. And more.

Have you ever had the distinct pleasure of reading Sir Alex Ferguson's autobiography? The infrastructure he attempted to put into place at East Stirlingshire and St Miren was brilliant but the real evidence of it became apparent at Aberdeen and of course at Utd.

Now I'm not advocating that LR is on par with Ferguson (far from it) but good long term planning is key for the success of any side. In the short term he has to rectify the inconsistency and defensive frailties that have hindered this season.

Whether he is man for the job, I will reserve judgement.