[Wooden Spoon]

MDCCCLXVI, on 04 March 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

When the SNP tried to split Scotland from the UK it was based upon four key tenets: 'if', 'maybe', hopefully' and 'perhaps'.

And for all her twisting and twitching on Marr this morning that's pretty much Teresa May's position on Brexit, too.

'If' the EU agree to this...'maybe' they'll agree to that...'hopefully' they'll agree to summat else...

..and 'perhaps' the likes of China, India and an increasingly protectionist US will offer the UK a better trade deal than the combined economies of the EU.

Meanwhile as concession after concession is made and talk of 'no deal being better than a bad deal' is conveniently forgotten Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg and Co quietly bide their time...

Would you rather have a democratic system of government where elected officials are answerable to the voting public or one where appointed officials on an executive impose directives?

[mr. smith]

a kick in the balls, on 28 February 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

Barnier today “ we await the proposal from the UK for its solution to the Northern Ireland border in order to protect the good Friday agreement”


Sorry?



The good Friday agreement was between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. Not Ireland and EU, or UK and EU.



We surely don’t need to protect it, it should be for the EU to protect it, they are the ones, not us, who have implemented rules to remove sovereignty and the right of the ROI to negotiate and implement the good Friday agreement, to lose the right over its own borders

you could argue that the eu is sticking up for one of its members (the rep of Ireland).
the good Friday agreement removed the border between the 2 Irelands for trade etc. a hard brexit will restore the border & so, to an extent, void the agreement.
the eu is just pressurising the uk govt to come up with a solution.
27 countries in the eu have a stance on the uk's brexit, 2yrs on we don't.

[Wooden Spoon]

mr. smith, on 09 March 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

you could argue that the eu is sticking up for one of its members (the rep of Ireland).the good Friday agreement removed the border between the 2 Irelands for trade etc. a hard brexit will restore the border & so, to an extent, void the agreement.the eu is just pressurising the uk govt to come up with a solution.27 countries in the eu have a stance on the uk's brexit, 2yrs on we don't.

Evening Mr S







I`d argue that we already had an agreement on a soft border, the GFA. It was the EU treaties that altered this, not the UK. Its a problem created by EU, not UK legislation. The treaties had a provison,article 50, for states to leave, It should also have had provisions for agreements such as GFA to be respected regardless of EU treaties.




EU arrogance and the belief it is more important than member states have created this, nothing else.










And if you think all 27 are fully behind the M Barnier, your mistaken. He`s already been forced to alter the wording of the draft proposal

This post has been edited by a kick in the balls: 09 March 2018 - 05:38 PM

[mr. smith]

a kick in the balls, on 09 March 2018 - 05:30 PM, said:

Evening Mr S







I`d argue that we already had an agreement on a soft border, the GFA. It was the EU treaties that altered this, not the UK. Its a problem created by EU, not UK legislation. The treaties had a provison,article 50, for states to leave, It should also have had provisions for agreements such as GFA to be respected regardless of EU treaties.

the eu does have provision for it but if you want the open trade borders you have to accept other things such as free movement.
the eu is far from blameless but 2yrs on youd think our govt would have an idea of what they want.



EU arrogance and the belief it is more important than member states have created this, nothing else.

probably so.








And if you think all 27 are fully behind the M Barnier, your mistaken. He`s already been forced to alter the wording of the draft proposal

draft proposals are just that. open for alteration.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

a kick in the balls, on 09 March 2018 - 02:56 PM, said:

Would you rather have a democratic system of government where elected officials are answerable to the voting public or one where appointed officials on an executive impose directives?

Don't mistake my cynicism towards some...okay, many of the Brextremists for an endorsement of the EU 'project', my friend.

The EU is corrupt, undemocratic, profligate and a vehicle for characters who want a federal Europe run pretty much by themselves.

However I remain convinced that all too many on the Right are seeking what at least one of them described as a 'bonfire of workers' rights', turning Britain into the low tax, low wage capitalist free-for-all warned by Corbyn and Co.

And I say that as no particular fan of the Labour leader.

Look; this latest thing with Russia sums-up where we stand in the modern world. For all the quasi-nostalgic references to a pre-European Britain that never really existed - and even if it did the world has changed significantly since - Putin knows an independent UK offers little or no threat. So now more than ever we need partners to secure influence. The US? Run by a Trump with far more of a 'special relationship' with Russia than us? Yeah, right. Those emerging countries that're supposed to be our new 'friends' (like the Saudi Arabia disgustingly hostile to women's, gay and basic human rights)? That distant sound of laughter is coming from the Russian embassy. And the Chinese. And the American.

Meanwhile perhaps now is a good time to remember Boris Johnson is our Foreign Secretary. Boris...Johnson.

The EU referendum was a fifty two - forty eight verdict. Though that might've changed given how many old folk have since kicked their clogs and how many young folk have become politically active. Either way that more or less sums-up my attitude towards staying in - some control of events is better than none...

This post has been edited by MDCCCLXVI: 09 March 2018 - 10:31 PM

[Wooden Spoon]

MDCCCLXVI, on 09 March 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

Don't mistake my cynicism towards some...okay, many of the Brextremists for an endorsement of the EU 'project', my friend.

The EU is corrupt, undemocratic, profligate and a vehicle for characters who want a federal Europe run pretty much by themselves.

However I remain convinced that all too many on the Right are seeking what at least one of them described as a 'bonfire of workers' rights', turning Britain into the low tax, low wage capitalist free-for-all warned by Corbyn and Co.

And I say that as no particular fan of the Labour leader.

Look; this latest thing with Russia sums-up where we stand in the modern world. For all the quasi-nostalgic references to a pre-European Britain that never really existed - and even if it did the world has changed significantly since - Putin knows an independent UK offers little or no threat. So now more than ever we need partners to secure influence. The US? Run by a Trump with far more of a 'special relationship' with Russia than us? Yeah, right. Those emerging countries that're supposed to be our new 'friends' (like the Saudi Arabia disgustingly hostile to women's, gay and basic human rights)? That distant sound of laughter is coming from the Russian embassy. And the Chinese. And the American.

Meanwhile perhaps now is a good time to remember Boris Johnson is our Foreign Secretary. Boris...Johnson.

The EU referendum was a fifty two - forty eight verdict. Though that might've changed given how many old folk have since kicked their clogs and how many young folk have become politically active. Either way that more or less sums-up my attitude towards staying in - some control of events is better than none...

Hey up Chris.



My reasons for being a staunch anti EU type are pretty much those that you have outlined- and like you, I’m a labour movement supporter and trade unionist.


I do think though that there is a tendency to label anyone who is anti EU as some sort of rabid xenophobic skin head. Which just isn’t always the case.



The EU is an anti democratic corrupt self serving political elite of the worst kind. They make our MPs expense claim crooks look like the epitome of honesty and integrity



And yes, Boris Johnson’s the foreign secretary- you can’t help but smile at the irony