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#1 User is online   The Earl of Chesterfield 

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 05:36 PM

https://www.irishtim...rters-1.3695347
Spanish proverb: 'Pessimists are just well informed optimists'
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#2 User is offline   Search & Destroy 

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 07:51 PM

Finton O toole is the Irish equivalent of James OBriien though
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#3 User is offline   AllTownArentWe 

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:15 PM

View PostMDCCCLXVI, on 13 November 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:


This clapped article is as biased as they come.
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#4 User is offline   spireiterob 

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:46 PM

View PostMDCCCLXVI, on 13 November 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:



I despair quite honestly, make everyone poorer (apart from those in Government and surrounding it pushing for it), pretty much every self respecting economist has said it will ruin the economy, and individuals still want it.

I am sure that Rees Mogg and the like have got no vested interests in it...in fact wasn't it his Dad who wrote a book on it..

https://www.google.c...ts-brexit-plans

When it comes out fully who has funded it, I am sure that the real 'traitors' won't be that from the remain side. None of this is patriotism, as Macron said yesterday.

Our only hope is a people's vote now, and there is certainly traction for it.
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#5 User is offline   AllTownArentWe 

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:49 PM

View Postspireiterob, on 13 November 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

Our only hope is a people's vote now

We had one 2 years ago. Did you miss it?
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#6 User is offline   spireiterob 

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 08:56 PM

View PostAllTownArentWe, on 13 November 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

We had one 2 years ago. Did you miss it?


That your only arguement?

No facts how on earth it would possibly benefit this country?

Now 2 years on many more facts are out I think people are much more likely to be informed on such an important decision.
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#7 User is offline   AllTownArentWe 

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Posted 13 November 2018 - 09:46 PM

View Postspireiterob, on 13 November 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

That your only arguement?

No facts how on earth it would possibly benefit this country?

Now 2 years on many more facts are out I think people are much more likely to be informed on such an important decision.

You want to know the benefits of leaving the EU? Here we go then.

1) Immigration. Leaving the EU will mean that we will gain powers over controlling immigration from the EU that we currently do not have. This will have several benefits. Firstly, since we will be able to control it, we won't have to unfairly discriminate against immigrants coming from outside the EU because we wont have to balance the uncontrollable immigration from the EU with controllable immigration from out side the EU. Secondly, we can reduce the undercutting of our work force by immigrants from less developed countries in the EU by creating sensible immigration controls with the new powers that we will have. Thirdly, we can shape our immigration system to suit our needs by making it easier for people with the skills we need to come here rather than the generic system we already have. The fact that around 450 million can come to the UK unimpeded I find horrifying as well.

2) Integrity of our Democratic Institutions. The direction the EU is going is to become a huge centralized government of Europe. This is why it has a flag, an anthem, and a parliament as well as a push for a security force. By leaving the EU, we can stop the EU from interfering with our institutions which will maintain the integrity of our institutions and stop a foreign power from imposing laws and regulations over us. Also, it will stop the European court from overruling the British courts which will mean rulings will be much more aligned with British laws which you want when you are, you know... British. Also, the laws and regulations the EU imposes on us are not always fully suited to our political system as those regulations have to cater to 27 other countries. Also just to add this on, in 2016 we gave £8.6 billion to the EU, and lost control of another £4.5 billion on top of that. So another benefit is that we will re-gain control of this money and adding it to our budget.

3) Trade. When we leave the EU, we will be able to create trade deals on our own with countries around the world. This had many benefits. Firstly, the EU can takes years and years to strike trade deals due to the mass amount of different needs its members have and the bureaucracy that slows it down so we will be able to strike deals more quickly so we can receive the economic benefits of these deals faster. Being about to strike our own trade deals mean that these deals will be more suited to our needs which will benefit our economy because in a trade deal between two countries, there are two sides. Not 29. A possible negative could be that trading in a bloc possibly gives you more influence over the country on the other side of the table, but Britain is a large enough union to negotiate on its own and will enough influence and respect with the country we are negotiating with that countries like Iceland and Ireland might not have. So the argument that countries wont want to do trade deals with us is a fundamental fiction. Also, lots of countries have expressed massive interest and they are eager to do a trade deal with us.

4) EU Commission. This has a incredible amount of power, and poor oversight and accountability. It is just terrible. The commissioners are not directly elected.

5) Democracy Killer. The EU has a track record of discarding democratic votes in countries like Ireland because it is too invested in its own interests. Also, a centralized government taking away powers from individual countries will be the start of the death of democracy across Europe. Lots of people have predicted it, even the late Tony Benn as well as others from different parties like Thatcher.

Leaving the EU is not a left or right issue. It's a do you want to be in a terrible union issue? The EU does have some benefits but the negatives massively outweigh them.

Also, having another vote is not democratic, because for a vote to be truly democratic you have to experience the consequences, otherwise it is meaningless.

There are many other benefits to leaving but quite frankly I can't be bothered to type anymore, because this debate is over, and anybody who truly values democracy would recognize this regardless of their political views.

This post has been edited by AllTownArentWe: 13 November 2018 - 09:54 PM

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#8 User is offline   spireiterob 

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 01:13 PM

View PostAllTownArentWe, on 13 November 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

You want to know the benefits of leaving the EU? Here we go then.

1) Immigration. Leaving the EU will mean that we will gain powers over controlling immigration from the EU that we currently do not have. This will have several benefits. Firstly, since we will be able to control it, we won't have to unfairly discriminate against immigrants coming from outside the EU because we wont have to balance the uncontrollable immigration from the EU with controllable immigration from out side the EU. Secondly, we can reduce the undercutting of our work force by immigrants from less developed countries in the EU by creating sensible immigration controls with the new powers that we will have. Thirdly, we can shape our immigration system to suit our needs by making it easier for people with the skills we need to come here rather than the generic system we already have. The fact that around 450 million can come to the UK unimpeded I find horrifying as well.

2) Integrity of our Democratic Institutions. The direction the EU is going is to become a huge centralized government of Europe. This is why it has a flag, an anthem, and a parliament as well as a push for a security force. By leaving the EU, we can stop the EU from interfering with our institutions which will maintain the integrity of our institutions and stop a foreign power from imposing laws and regulations over us. Also, it will stop the European court from overruling the British courts which will mean rulings will be much more aligned with British laws which you want when you are, you know... British. Also, the laws and regulations the EU imposes on us are not always fully suited to our political system as those regulations have to cater to 27 other countries. Also just to add this on, in 2016 we gave £8.6 billion to the EU, and lost control of another £4.5 billion on top of that. So another benefit is that we will re-gain control of this money and adding it to our budget.

3) Trade. When we leave the EU, we will be able to create trade deals on our own with countries around the world. This had many benefits. Firstly, the EU can takes years and years to strike trade deals due to the mass amount of different needs its members have and the bureaucracy that slows it down so we will be able to strike deals more quickly so we can receive the economic benefits of these deals faster. Being about to strike our own trade deals mean that these deals will be more suited to our needs which will benefit our economy because in a trade deal between two countries, there are two sides. Not 29. A possible negative could be that trading in a bloc possibly gives you more influence over the country on the other side of the table, but Britain is a large enough union to negotiate on its own and will enough influence and respect with the country we are negotiating with that countries like Iceland and Ireland might not have. So the argument that countries wont want to do trade deals with us is a fundamental fiction. Also, lots of countries have expressed massive interest and they are eager to do a trade deal with us.

4) EU Commission. This has a incredible amount of power, and poor oversight and accountability. It is just terrible. The commissioners are not directly elected.

5) Democracy Killer. The EU has a track record of discarding democratic votes in countries like Ireland because it is too invested in its own interests. Also, a centralized government taking away powers from individual countries will be the start of the death of democracy across Europe. Lots of people have predicted it, even the late Tony Benn as well as others from different parties like Thatcher.

Leaving the EU is not a left or right issue. It's a do you want to be in a terrible union issue? The EU does have some benefits but the negatives massively outweigh them.

Also, having another vote is not democratic, because for a vote to be truly democratic you have to experience the consequences, otherwise it is meaningless.

There are many other benefits to leaving but quite frankly I can't be bothered to type anymore, because this debate is over, and anybody who truly values democracy would recognize this regardless of their political views.


1. The Government already can choose to control migration, it chooses not to. The net positives to the economy from this immigration far outweighs the negatives, and this taxation income will now be lost. Where will this be made up? More than likely more unnecessary Austerity.

The demonisation of immigration from the Right Wing Media, fits perfectly into the Tory lies, and narrative. Also the demonisation of the EU has worked a treat - and taken away the heat from the continuing Tory destruction of our NHS, Council budgets/public services, and this will only get worse with Brexit, guaranteed.

https://www.theguard...ston-poverty-uk


2. The amount of EU laws that you could say as a general person could negatively effect you I imagine would be minimal. And being in the EU the UK did have a say on them. In fact the amount of Workplace Laws that have had a positive effect, to keep staff safer, ensure protection and fair treatment is massive. Again, I imagine the Tories/Big Business will be rubbing their hands at the chance to erode workers rights, and it is not in their interest to tell you that. The TPA and other (Lobbyists) interests in pushing through Brexit has been very interesting, and alarming for me.

This site - https://blogs.ec.eur...yths-a-z-index/

Debunks many EU myths that have been peddled in the right wing media to suit their own and their parties interests. It makes me angry to think how many people have been duped by some of these.

3. The trade one is the most ridiculous of all, to think that these could all be replaced quickly and get as good a deal we had before with anyone I just do not believe can happen and the Government is again peddling complete lies. I have not read any media of anyone rushing to do deals with us. Again - everyone will be rubbing their hands to try and rip us off.

'In 2015, countries with EU trade agreements accounted for over 15 per cent of all British imports and exports. Without the deals, the UK would be thrust onto World Trade Organisation terms with these countries. Britain’s exporters would face costly tariff increases and in some cases more stringent customs checks, with average tariffs levied from between 5 per cent (Israel) to almost 30 per cent (Egypt). The UK would also have to impose tariffs, raising consumer prices. Britain would lose deeper access to services, as it would no longer participate in the 14 services agreements struck by the EU, including the trade agreement concluded with South Korea.'

https://twitter.com/...663820525686784 - This thread is excellent, and goes through a few implications that have already happened/happening. Sure there will be many more to come.

All in all, it is my opinion that this isn't a case of democracy, the debate isn't over because we haven't left yet. Everything points to it being absolute economic and political suicide, I love my country and I don't want to see this happen.

All in all - the case for a peoples vote cannot be dismissed, the 'deal' May has put to parliament, (that incidentally they only have hours to read before voting on it, wonder why) will no doubt be a million miles from the complete fantasy land that Johnson, Gove etc promised, but knew they could never deliver.

I don't want to argue with you, we all have our own opinions, but I cannot agree that there is any positives to Brexit, having seen the facts and think we are just likely to get more screwed in years to come.
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#9 User is offline   AllTownArentWe 

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 02:58 PM

View Postspireiterob, on 14 November 2018 - 01:13 PM, said:

1. The Government already can choose to control migration, it chooses not to. The net positives to the economy from this immigration far outweighs the negatives, and this taxation income will now be lost. Where will this be made up? More than likely more unnecessary Austerity.

The demonisation of immigration from the Right Wing Media, fits perfectly into the Tory lies, and narrative. Also the demonisation of the EU has worked a treat - and taken away the heat from the continuing Tory destruction of our NHS, Council budgets/public services, and this will only get worse with Brexit, guaranteed.

https://www.theguard...ston-poverty-uk


2. The amount of EU laws that you could say as a general person could negatively effect you I imagine would be minimal. And being in the EU the UK did have a say on them. In fact the amount of Workplace Laws that have had a positive effect, to keep staff safer, ensure protection and fair treatment is massive. Again, I imagine the Tories/Big Business will be rubbing their hands at the chance to erode workers rights, and it is not in their interest to tell you that. The TPA and other (Lobbyists) interests in pushing through Brexit has been very interesting, and alarming for me.

This site - https://blogs.ec.eur...yths-a-z-index/

Debunks many EU myths that have been peddled in the right wing media to suit their own and their parties interests. It makes me angry to think how many people have been duped by some of these.

3. The trade one is the most ridiculous of all, to think that these could all be replaced quickly and get as good a deal we had before with anyone I just do not believe can happen and the Government is again peddling complete lies. I have not read any media of anyone rushing to do deals with us. Again - everyone will be rubbing their hands to try and rip us off.

'In 2015, countries with EU trade agreements accounted for over 15 per cent of all British imports and exports. Without the deals, the UK would be thrust onto World Trade Organisation terms with these countries. Britain’s exporters would face costly tariff increases and in some cases more stringent customs checks, with average tariffs levied from between 5 per cent (Israel) to almost 30 per cent (Egypt). The UK would also have to impose tariffs, raising consumer prices. Britain would lose deeper access to services, as it would no longer participate in the 14 services agreements struck by the EU, including the trade agreement concluded with South Korea.'

https://twitter.com/...663820525686784 - This thread is excellent, and goes through a few implications that have already happened/happening. Sure there will be many more to come.

All in all, it is my opinion that this isn't a case of democracy, the debate isn't over because we haven't left yet. Everything points to it being absolute economic and political suicide, I love my country and I don't want to see this happen.

All in all - the case for a peoples vote cannot be dismissed, the 'deal' May has put to parliament, (that incidentally they only have hours to read before voting on it, wonder why) will no doubt be a million miles from the complete fantasy land that Johnson, Gove etc promised, but knew they could never deliver.

I don't want to argue with you, we all have our own opinions, but I cannot agree that there is any positives to Brexit, having seen the facts and think we are just likely to get more screwed in years to come.

The basic fact is that the EU is not the same organisation the UK joined in 1975. It joined the then common market to create better trade ties with the other developed countries in Europe and to make it easier for labour to move around between the highest developed countries in Europe, not the newer and much less developed members like Romania and Poland. Also, Turkey may join in the next few decades which would be a complete disaster. That organisation developed into a huge organisation that isn't solely about trade anymore, it's about interfering with individual democracy's, it's about overruling individual countries courts in favour of their own, it's about pushing their single far left agenda onto these countries that a lot of people do not want at all as the top brass in the EU chase their dream of becoming a mega state with their flag, their anthem, and their charade of a parliament.

You complain about the right wing media, and then link the Guardian which is a completely biased left wing organisation. Nice.

Firstly, normal people can be massively effected by EU laws and regulations. The EU took away a large amount of the UKs fishing waters which massively hit fishing towns. Secondly, the cheaper labour from EU countries like Poland and Romania undercut the British workforce which the UK cannot control because of freedom of movement which is mandatory for all member states.

Lastly suggesting that leaving the EU is political and economic suicide is laughable and a childish suggestion. There are many benefits of leaving, and by the way the UK economy did exist before 1975. The mentality of some remainers who think that this country is a pathetic fat lump of lard that is garbage at everything is offensive and wrong. The UK has, can, and will hold its own without the EU looking over its shoulder all the time. The fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Europe don't want a huge mega state, they want their own individual countries that trade and co-operate with each other in a sensible and measured capacity, that's why anti EU parties are surging in the poles in lots of different member states and the left wing media constantly call anti-EU parties far right to discourage them when in fact they are just parties that hold views that ordinary people in that country hold.

People knew what they were voting for, they voted for it, and now the result of that vote should be upheld. If you want a referendum, then you should wait 40 years to do that like the people who were against joining the common market in 1975 had to do.

The next few years of instability will seem small compared to the decades of prosperity to come.

I will repeat it again. LEAVING THE EU IS NOT SOLELY A LEFT OR RIGHT ISSUE!

This post has been edited by AllTownArentWe: 14 November 2018 - 03:08 PM

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#10 User is offline   Search & Destroy 

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 03:11 PM

The only possible reason for staying in the E.U. is that it’s too hard to get out of it

This post has been edited by Search and Destroy: 14 November 2018 - 03:12 PM

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#11 User is offline   spireiterob 

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 03:13 PM

View PostAllTownArentWe, on 14 November 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

The basic fact is that the EU is not the same organisation the UK joined in 1975. It joined the then common market to create better trade ties with the other developed countries in Europe and to make it easier for labour to move around between the highest developed countries in Europe, not the newer and much less developed members like Romania and Poland. Also, Turkey may join in the next few decades which would be a complete disaster. That organisation developed into a huge organisation that isn't solely about trade anymore, it's about interfering with individual democracy's, it's about overruling individual countries courts in favour of their own, it's about pushing their single far left agenda onto these countries that a lot of people do not want at all as the top brass in the EU chase their dream of becoming a mega state with their flag, their anthem, and their charade of a parliament.

You complain about the right wing media, and then link the Guardian which is a completely biased left wing organisation. Nice.

Firstly, normal people can be massively effected by EU laws and regulations. The EU took away a large amount of the UKs fishing waters which massively hit fishing towns. Secondly, the cheaper labour from EU countries like Poland and Romania undercut the British workforce which the UK cannot control because of freedom of movement which is mandatory for all member states.

Lastly suggesting that leaving the EU is political and economic suicide is laughable and a childish suggestion. There are many benefits of leaving, and by the way the UK economy did exist before 1975. The mentality of some remainers who think that this country is a pathetic fat lump of lard that is garbage at everything is offensive and wrong. The UK has, can, and will hold its own without the EU looking over its shoulder all the time. The fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Europe don't want a huge mega state, they want their own individual countries that trade and co-operate with each other in a sensible and measured capacity, that's why anti EU parties are surging in the poles in lots of different member states and the left wing media constantly call anti-EU parties far right to discourage them when in fact they are just parties that hold views that ordinary people in that country hold.


I link the Guardian, sorry the article is complete fact surrounding a genuine place in this country. You reckon the UN ambassador has made it all up for a laugh?

The mentality of some remainers is that they don't want their countries economy to be destroyed and people to be put in deeper poverty. Nothing else. It is offensive to suggest otherwise. Every single piece of respectable journalism on Brexit, and economic impact reports (even the governments own!!) Point to the fact that it will be economic suicide. Why is it childish to be worried about that?

This pathetic line trotted out by 'leavers' that somehow 'we' are less patriotic is complete baloney. No - I am genuinely worried.
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#12 User is offline   frearsghost 

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 04:07 PM

View PostAllTownArentWe, on 14 November 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

The basic fact is that the EU is not the same organisation the UK joined in 1975. It joined the then common market to create better trade ties with the other developed countries in Europe and to make it easier for labour to move around between the highest developed countries in Europe, not the newer and much less developed members like Romania and Poland. Also, Turkey may join in the next few decades which would be a complete disaster. That organisation developed into a huge organisation that isn't solely about trade anymore, it's about interfering with individual democracy's, it's about overruling individual countries courts in favour of their own, it's about pushing their single far left agenda onto these countries that a lot of people do not want at all as the top brass in the EU chase their dream of becoming a mega state with their flag, their anthem, and their charade of a parliament.

You complain about the right wing media, and then link the Guardian which is a completely biased left wing organisation. Nice.

Firstly, normal people can be massively effected by EU laws and regulations. The EU took away a large amount of the UKs fishing waters which massively hit fishing towns. Secondly, the cheaper labour from EU countries like Poland and Romania undercut the British workforce which the UK cannot control because of freedom of movement which is mandatory for all member states.

Lastly suggesting that leaving the EU is political and economic suicide is laughable and a childish suggestion. There are many benefits of leaving, and by the way the UK economy did exist before 1975. The mentality of some remainers who think that this country is a pathetic fat lump of lard that is garbage at everything is offensive and wrong. The UK has, can, and will hold its own without the EU looking over its shoulder all the time. The fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Europe don't want a huge mega state, they want their own individual countries that trade and co-operate with each other in a sensible and measured capacity, that's why anti EU parties are surging in the poles in lots of different member states and the left wing media constantly call anti-EU parties far right to discourage them when in fact they are just parties that hold views that ordinary people in that country hold.

People knew what they were voting for, they voted for it, and now the result of that vote should be upheld. If you want a referendum, then you should wait 40 years to do that like the people who were against joining the common market in 1975 had to do.

The next few years of instability will seem small compared to the decades of prosperity to come.

I will repeat it again. LEAVING THE EU IS NOT SOLELY A LEFT OR RIGHT ISSUE!


There was far too much class war rhetoric in his post which has nothing to with Brexit. It's like the Tories are the villians and we need a foreign government to get rid of them. Take away the class war and he's saying, as they all do, that in order to be prosperous Britain has to surrender its sovereignty which is, of course, an outrageous, unpatriotic proposition.

The economic community was a good idea but as we now know, successive governments kept quite about what was just a stepping stone to full political integration. As Junker said this week, "Of course political integration means a transfer of sovereignty, but I'd be stupid to tell them that."

Still, I read two excellent competent posts from you on a day when Theresa May will possibly complete her brief to keep us inside the EU. A PM who has lied to the country for two years and committed one of the biggest betrayals in British history. Below are two quotes that, for me, describe the spirit of Brexitiers and the dangers of a European Superpower.


"Nurture your minds with great thoughts. To believe in the heroic makes heroes."

"We will sit down now but a time will come when you will hear us." [paraphrased]

Benjamin Disraeli

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 14 November 2018 - 04:16 PM

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#13 User is online   Westbars Spireite 

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 05:16 PM

Surely the extreme left view would be fully pro-Brexit.

Definitely not a left v right issue.
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Posted 14 November 2018 - 06:41 PM

View PostAllTownArentWe, on 13 November 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

You want to know the benefits of leaving the EU? Here we go then.

1) Immigration. Leaving the EU will mean that we will gain powers over controlling immigration from the EU that we currently do not have. This will have several benefits. Firstly, since we will be able to control it, we won't have to unfairly discriminate against immigrants coming from outside the EU because we wont have to balance the uncontrollable immigration from the EU with controllable immigration from out side the EU. Secondly, we can reduce the undercutting of our work force by immigrants from less developed countries in the EU by creating sensible immigration controls with the new powers that we will have. Thirdly, we can shape our immigration system to suit our needs by making it easier for people with the skills we need to come here rather than the generic system we already have. The fact that around 450 million can come to the UK unimpeded I find horrifying as well.

2) Integrity of our Democratic Institutions. The direction the EU is going is to become a huge centralized government of Europe. This is why it has a flag, an anthem, and a parliament as well as a push for a security force. By leaving the EU, we can stop the EU from interfering with our institutions which will maintain the integrity of our institutions and stop a foreign power from imposing laws and regulations over us. Also, it will stop the European court from overruling the British courts which will mean rulings will be much more aligned with British laws which you want when you are, you know... British. Also, the laws and regulations the EU imposes on us are not always fully suited to our political system as those regulations have to cater to 27 other countries. Also just to add this on, in 2016 we gave £8.6 billion to the EU, and lost control of another £4.5 billion on top of that. So another benefit is that we will re-gain control of this money and adding it to our budget.

3) Trade. When we leave the EU, we will be able to create trade deals on our own with countries around the world. This had many benefits. Firstly, the EU can takes years and years to strike trade deals due to the mass amount of different needs its members have and the bureaucracy that slows it down so we will be able to strike deals more quickly so we can receive the economic benefits of these deals faster. Being about to strike our own trade deals mean that these deals will be more suited to our needs which will benefit our economy because in a trade deal between two countries, there are two sides. Not 29. A possible negative could be that trading in a bloc possibly gives you more influence over the country on the other side of the table, but Britain is a large enough union to negotiate on its own and will enough influence and respect with the country we are negotiating with that countries like Iceland and Ireland might not have. So the argument that countries wont want to do trade deals with us is a fundamental fiction. Also, lots of countries have expressed massive interest and they are eager to do a trade deal with us.

4) EU Commission. This has a incredible amount of power, and poor oversight and accountability. It is just terrible. The commissioners are not directly elected.

5) Democracy Killer. The EU has a track record of discarding democratic votes in countries like Ireland because it is too invested in its own interests. Also, a centralized government taking away powers from individual countries will be the start of the death of democracy across Europe. Lots of people have predicted it, even the late Tony Benn as well as others from different parties like Thatcher.

Leaving the EU is not a left or right issue. It's a do you want to be in a terrible union issue? The EU does have some benefits but the negatives massively outweigh them.

Also, having another vote is not democratic, because for a vote to be truly democratic you have to experience the consequences, otherwise it is meaningless. As for unfair

There are many other benefits to leaving but quite frankly I can't be bothered to type anymore, because this debate is over, and anybody who truly values democracy would recognize this regardless of their political views.


1. Being outside Shengen means the British Government can control immigration. All immigration. However given there're tens of thousands of NHS and Education posts unfilled - to name just two sectors - they choose not to. Then the 'Windrush' scandal tells us all we need to know about this myth regarding Commonwealth immigrants being preferred. As for wages being supressed, that's true for skilled workers but there's little evidence of it being the case for unskilled ones.

2. I agree that the EU is becoming increasingly centralised and there's no doubt an agenda on the part of some to create a super state. However I'll repeat the question no Brexiteers can really answer: exactly which laws has the EU imposed that negatively impact upon our daily lives? Can you name, say, three? And the greatest hypocrisy of many Brexiteers is on one hand demanding a 'return of sovereignty' but on the other refusing Parliament a final say on Brexit. Oh, and whilst we're one of twenty seven EU members we'd be one of a hundred and seventy under WTO rules, any one of which could oppose our wishes. Exactly how does that give us more control? There's no evidence whatsoever of any 'Brexit dividend'. Infact all the evidence suggests savings would be overwhelmingly outweighed by the shrinking of our economy.

3. Deals with who? When? They've had years to negotiate yet where are they? Whilst being an EU member means we can't sign any independent agreements we can definitely prepare them...so? Meanwhile it's a matter of fact that trade with, say, the whole of Africa would pale into insignificance compared to what we'll lose by leaving the EU. Maybe you could name the countries showing a 'massive interest' and what percentage of our trade with the EU they might represent. Consider this, too: if British business want to do deals with the half a billion EU citizens on our doorstep - logically and geographically our most important market - they'll have to abide the rules and regulations you're so desperate to tear-up anyway.

4. And? Again I actually agree, but I'd repeat my question asking what they've done to hurt you or me? Besides, all the talk of our Parliament being somehow bypassed is just wrong - the opt-outs negotiated by the Margaret Thatcher and John Major who helped create the EU we see today ensure that.

5. I agree for a third time. No one's said the EU as it stands is summat they're happy with. What they are saying though, is there're no short, medium or even longer term benefits in untangling ourselves from it. It's sh*t, I know, but let's live in the real world rather than some mirage created by Farage.

I'll now add a '6' - the Irish border issue. The Good Friday Agreement that's kept the peace for twenty-odd years (well, more or less) dictates there can be none. And for all their posturing and piffle not a single Brexiteer has explained how that can be achieved. Indeed some of those so-called patriots appear happy to chuck the Northern Irish people under a bus in their zeal to leave. Or alternatively they advocate leaving the whole thing unmanned - exactly how is that 'taking back control of our borders'? Three hundred and fifty miles open to the hundreds of millions Brexiteers claim are queueing up to come in?

Which brings us to '7' - the huge amounts of extra red tape and bureaucracy that'll be created at our borders. Alongside the home counties being turned into a car park. Alongside all the businesses that rely on 'JIT' deliveries being hit. Alongside all the businesses that ship perishable goods facing summat similar. It's not so-called 'Project Fear' saying that either - it's government departments and those running such businesses. Who's gonna pay for all the extra border staff, too? All the extra infrastructure? All the extra staff to handle this extra paperwork? How's that gonna impact on any supposed 'Brexit dividend'?

Nah mate, simply talking about 'democracy', as if a vote influenced by illegal payments - that may yet turn out to've come from Russian sources - and a catalogue of false assurances or even lies, isn't enough reason to drive the UK car over a cliff. Even if that car's daubed in a union flag, playing the National Anthem and the cliff is white one at Dover. If democracy delivers a government we don't like we get to change our minds five years later. So I don't see any problem with asking a now better informed British public if they'd like to change their mind about Brexit.
Spanish proverb: 'Pessimists are just well informed optimists'
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#15 User is online   The Earl of Chesterfield 

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 06:47 PM

View PostWestbars Spireite, on 14 November 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

Surely the extreme left view would be fully pro-Brexit.

Definitely not a left v right issue.


Agree.

Infact we have a largely 'remain' May leading a largely 'leave' Tory Party (well, for now, anyway) yet a largely 'leave' Corbyn leading a largely 'remain' Labour.
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#16 User is offline   isleaiw1 

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 08:27 AM

View PostMDCCCLXVI, on 14 November 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Agree.

Infact we have a largely 'remain' May leading a largely 'leave' Tory Party (well, for now, anyway) yet a largely 'leave' Corbyn leading a largely 'remain' Labour.


But largely Labour northern constituencies voting most heavily to leave...

I think we should stay in the EEA....but not the EU...... I dont do politics!
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#17 User is offline   turrhall 

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 09:52 AM

Just the record, Turkey will never join the EU, it just will not happen. They applied to join in the mid 80s and are far away now as they've been since that point. Erdogan is keen to make them a major player in the Middle East and has zero interest in complying with many of the non-negotiable economic/legal/human rights criteria for them joining.

Plus Cyprus and Greece would immediately veto it until, at the very least, they have Northern Cyprus back. Bearing in mind you need ALL nations to agree to new members (as far as I remember) for accession to take place.

"Turkey is imminently joining the EU" is a scare tactics and far right dog whistle.
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#18 User is offline   SpireiteFitzy 

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 04:04 PM

Sitting here and watching the Tory party implode is quite satisfying.
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#19 User is offline   AllTownArentWe 

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 04:56 PM

View Postturrhall, on 15 November 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

Just the record, Turkey will never join the EU, it just will not happen. They applied to join in the mid 80s and are far away now as they've been since that point. Erdogan is keen to make them a major player in the Middle East and has zero interest in complying with many of the non-negotiable economic/legal/human rights criteria for them joining.

Plus Cyprus and Greece would immediately veto it until, at the very least, they have Northern Cyprus back. Bearing in mind you need ALL nations to agree to new members (as far as I remember) for accession to take place.

"Turkey is imminently joining the EU" is a scare tactics and far right dog whistle.

If you want a lesson in scare tactics just look at the remain campaign.
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#20 User is online   The Earl of Chesterfield 

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 05:08 PM

View PostAllTownArentWe, on 15 November 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

If you want a lesson in scare tactics just look at the remain campaign.


Again, can you be specific?
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