[Westbars Spireite]

People claiming out of work benefits shouldn't be allowed Sky TV.

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 19 June 2020 - 06:09 PM, said:

Okay, so your missus has a dodgy cousin. So you've met a lousy excuse for a parent. So you've seen some lasses smoking (really? Seriously? Nah, you're not pompous at all, pal...).

Well I've seen all that and more. Much more.

But you're once again talking about an underclass to be somehow controlled. A 'them' to be 'educated' over their 'money management'. To be deprived of already meagre benefits if they don't spend them 'responsibly', perhaps.

What next - unemployed folk fined for being the wrong weight? For wearing the wrong clothes? For having the wrong car or phone or tv?

Hey, no problem if some middle class woman feeds her kids takeaways every night whilst she hits the wine, but how dare anyone spend their dole on a bag of chips or bottle of cider.

Interested to know how the disabled fit into this 'Handmaid's Tale' version of society, too.

This thread began because one of those players you deem overpaid (issues with those earning too much AND too little, Dave?) remembered where he came from and shamed the government into feeding kids. And yeah, I fully accept some of those meals are necessary 'cos of pig ignorant adults. I wonder if his campaign - 'little' or not - would've been necessary were it not for certain other pig ignorant adults, though...

So, as a well educated person Chris with very strong opinions and views about society what would you do, if you could, to make sure that hungry children get fed and clothed rather than their parents spending what little money they have on less essential things?

[dtp]

Westbars Spireite, on 19 June 2020 - 06:32 PM, said:

People claiming out of work benefits shouldn't be allowed Sky TV.

You and your one liners!!!

Don't get me going on that one.

[Westbars Spireite]

dtp, on 19 June 2020 - 07:39 PM, said:

So, as a well educated person Chris with very strong opinions and views about society what would you do, if you could, to make sure that hungry children get fed and clothed rather than their parents spending what little money they have on less essential things?

Instead of supermarket vouchers I'd have preferred the government to have arranged drop offs of fresh produce to those genuinely in need.

[SALTERGATE]

Marcus Rashford earns a MPs annual salary (365 days) in just 3 days and he is not the highest paid at Man Utd......I am as left wing as they come and hate the Tories and applaud Marcus Rashford but the salaries of footballers are obscene

[Mr Mercury]

Westbars Spireite, on 19 June 2020 - 07:43 PM, said:

Instead of supermarket vouchers I'd have preferred the government to have arranged drop offs of fresh produce to those genuinely in need.

Likewise with the winter energy payments, send a voucher, redeemable with the energy suppliers, rather than a cheque!

[JonB]

SALTERGATE, on 19 June 2020 - 09:47 PM, said:

Marcus Rashford earns a MPs annual salary (365 days) in just 3 days and he is not the highest paid at Man Utd......I am as left wing as they come and hate the Tories and applaud Marcus Rashford but the salaries of footballers are obscene

Effectively footballers are in the entertainment business so how do they compare with tv folk, music folk, movie folk...all of who don’t get the grief footballers do.

[Paul Fisher]

SALTERGATE, on 19 June 2020 - 09:47 PM, said:

Marcus Rashford earns a MPs annual salary (365 days) in just 3 days and he is not the highest paid at Man Utd......I am as left wing as they come and hate the Tories and applaud Marcus Rashford but the salaries of footballers are obscene

Obscene or not that isn't the footballers fault though, market forces drive up their wages.

[Westbars Spireite]

Mr Mercury, on 19 June 2020 - 09:50 PM, said:

Likewise with the winter energy payments, send a voucher, redeemable with the energy suppliers, rather than a cheque!

The payments to pensioners used to go directly into their bank accounts and for those on means tested benefits there used to be additional small payments into the bank when temperatures were below certain levels for a number of days.

Never known cheques to be honest.

[Misnomer]

dtp, on 19 June 2020 - 03:55 PM, said:

Chris, you know as well as I that there are good and bad from all walks of life and there are those that are deserving of help and there are those that take no responsibility for their own actions or their own children.

I am not pompous or a member of any Rotary Club or such like. Like you I live on the edge of a Council Estate too. There are those that have never shown any desire to work and those that will do any form of work they can get. My wife had a cousin with two sons and who we used to try and help financially but if we gave her money to buy food or clothes with she preferred to spend it on fags and cheap vodka. When our nephews were old enough we helped them directly instead without telling her. Both her children learned from their mother's mistakes, one joined the Army and served in Afganhistan 3 times and the other is in the Marines. More recently, my daughters children attended primary school over the border in Nottinghamshire. Collecting my grandchildren from school was an education to behold when standing with the smoking mothers at the school gates. One pregnant woman had a child every year, 5 attending school in different age groups, 2 not old enough to attend yet, and as I said another on the way. She'd show you her latest iPhone whilst telling you she hadn't a clue what she was going to do for food that night. And, she was just one out of several who would talk of getting drunk the previous night etc but having to make do for food that night.

I feel for the kids, I really do. But, if certain parents aren't prepared to take responsibility for their own what are we supposed to do? Do you have any suggestions?

You might have different ideas but I do think that just keep throwing good money after bad at them hasn't worked so why not try educating them and teaching them responsible money management?

I remember when I was a college lecturer and was there when the EMA payments were made to students. The amount of parents that were waiting for that money, so they could go straight to the off-licence, was astounding. I dealt with loads of kids who never saw a penny of it; straight on fags and booze.

[Mr Mercury]

Westbars Spireite, on 19 June 2020 - 11:20 PM, said:

The payments to pensioners used to go directly into their bank accounts and for those on means tested benefits there used to be additional small payments into the bank when temperatures were below certain levels for a number of days.

Never known cheques to be honest.

Sorry it was bank payments.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 19 June 2020 - 07:39 PM, said:

So, as a well educated person Chris with very strong opinions and views about society what would you do, if you could, to make sure that hungry children get fed and clothed rather than their parents spending what little money they have on less essential things?

Why are you throwing this back at me? I'm not the one adopting a patronising attitude to 'them'. Portraying people like Marcus Rashford's mum as an underclass or dubbing his campaign 'little'.

Turn it on it's head; my granddaughter's school has a group of mums from better off households who always turn up in vanity vehicles - despite living in walking distance - ignore any parking protocols, dress as if they're going to a Chatsworth garden party and haughtily ignore the down-to-earth majority.

Hell, a couple might even smoke, too.

So should we demand 'they' be educated? Lectured how to behave under threat of sanction? Or is this another case of your double standards, Dave.

You're absolutely right there're the pig ignorant in every walk of life. Including those dictating who gets what and when. What I'd 'do' is suggest you and everyone else remember that...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 20 June 2020 - 07:26 AM

[Westbars Spireite]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 20 June 2020 - 07:20 AM, said:

Why are you throwing this back at me? I'm not the one adopting a patronising attitude to 'them'. Portraying people like Marcus Rashford's mum as an underclass or dubbing his campaign 'little'.

Turn it on it's head; my granddaughter's school has a group of mums from better off households who always turn up in vanity vehicles - despite living in walking distance - ignore any parking protocols, dress as if they're going to a Chatsworth garden party and haughtily ignore the down-to-earth majority.

Hell, a couple might even smoke, too.

So should we demand 'they' be educated? Lectured how to behave under threat of sanction? Or is this another case of your double standards, Dave.

You're absolutely right there're the pig ignorant in every walk of life. Including those dictating who gets what and when. What I'd 'do' is suggest you and everyone else remember that...

If they're spending benefit money doing so then bring on the education!

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 20 June 2020 - 07:20 AM, said:

Why are you throwing this back at me? I'm not the one adopting a patronising attitude to 'them'. Portraying people like Marcus Rashford's mum as an underclass or dubbing his campaign 'little'.

Turn it on it's head; my granddaughter's school has a group of mums from better off households who always turn up in vanity vehicles - despite living in walking distance - ignore any parking protocols, dress as if they're going to a Chatsworth garden party and haughtily ignore the down-to-earth majority.

Hell, a couple might even smoke, too.

So should we demand 'they' be educated? Lectured how to behave under threat of sanction? Or is this another case of your double standards, Dave.

You're absolutely right there're the pig ignorant in every walk of life. Including those dictating who gets what and when. What I'd 'do' is suggest you and everyone else remember that...

After all, Chris, all we are discussing here is why children are going hungry. Playing XXX-for-tat with examples of misbehaviour of people from different walks of life doesn't get them fed. The main ones not getting fed are those in receipt of school meals as highlighted by the present coved-19 situation. I've suggested that throwing more benefit money at those kids parents does not work by itself. When, I've heard politicians from both parties, after benefits have been increased, say they have taken x million children out of poverty I don't agree. I say they have put more money in the parents pockets and the kids that weren't getting fed will continue to go without.

You, tend to disagree with I say. Fair enough. I still think trying to educate people to use their money more wisely should be part of the system. After all, we try and teach kids how to eat healthy at schools. We hope this works and that the kids don't turn out as replicas of their parents don't we?

The lifetime example I mentioned of my wife's cousin's boys was an example I gave for a reason. The boys have done well and now treat my wife as their second mother as they both appreciate what we did for them in trying to guide them as the grew up. You turned that into XXX-for-tat examples trying to belittle what I was trying to say but, having done so, actually have no thoughts of as to how we should try to solve the problem of hungry children. The very children Rashford's campaign is all about.

[dim view]

dtp, on 19 June 2020 - 07:39 PM, said:

So, as a well educated person Chris with very strong opinions and views about society what would you do, if you could, to make sure that hungry children get fed and clothed rather than their parents spending what little money they have on less essential things?

Isn't MR's relatively narrow point that some parents (like his) cannot afford to feed their kids no matter how hard they work? He may well also agree with you on anti-squandering policies. We don't know.

What I find distasteful is your instant link between his action and his pay, and the subliminal notion that his idea would be much better accepted if it were financed initially from the pay packets of ultra rich role models.

[dtp]

dim view, on 20 June 2020 - 08:51 AM, said:

Isn't MR's relatively narrow point that some parents (like his) cannot afford to feed their kids no matter how hard they work? He may well also agree with you on anti-squandering policies. We don't know.

What I find distasteful is your instant link between his action and his pay, and the subliminal notion that his idea would be much better accepted if it were financed initially from the pay packets of ultra rich role models.

You are somewhat right regarding MR's "narrow point" and probably right regarding the rest of your first paragraph.

However, as far as I am aware, I have not said, or implied, that "his idea should be financed by ultra rich role models".

But, I have said that premiership footballers are overpaid. And, I stand by that because I think it is detrimental to the game, is sucking money out of football itself, and leaves far too big a gap between the premiership and lower level football in general.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 20 June 2020 - 08:39 AM, said:

After all, Chris, all we are discussing here is why children are going hungry. Playing XXX-for-tat with examples of misbehaviour of people from different walks of life doesn't get them fed. The main ones not getting fed are those in receipt of school meals as highlighted by the present coved-19 situation. I've suggested that throwing more benefit money at those kids parents does not work by itself. When, I've heard politicians from both parties, after benefits have been increased, say they have taken x million children out of poverty I don't agree. I say they have put more money in the parents pockets and the kids that weren't getting fed will continue to go without.

You, tend to disagree with I say. Fair enough. I still think trying to educate people to use their money more wisely should be part of the system. After all, we try and teach kids how to eat healthy at schools. We hope this works and that the kids don't turn out as replicas of their parents don't we?

The lifetime example I mentioned of my wife's cousin's boys was an example I gave for a reason. The boys have done well and now treat my wife as their second mother as they both appreciate what we did for them in trying to guide them as the grew up. You turned that into XXX-for-tat examples trying to belittle what I was trying to say but, having done so, actually have no thoughts of as to how we should try to solve the problem of hungry children. The very children Rashford's campaign is all about.

You still don't get it, do you.

My replies weren't t*t-for-tat, they were questions how you'd apply your prejudices. Whilst highlighting the double standards you're once again demonstrating.

Because you've still not told us how you'd police your highly selective measures: Plod turning up at a benefit recipient's house and frog-marching them into some re-education facility 'cos they've been seen smoking? Drinking? Eating a McDonalds, perhaps?

Sounds very much like China to me. Didn't know you were a closet Maoist, Dave.

Oh, and by the way; I know from personal experience that the adult education you're suggesting has been decimated by ten years of tory cuts.

I'm all for folk doing the right thing. Unemployed parents putting snap on the table before ale down their throats, middle class vanity vehicle drivers parking in the right spot (or even doing their bit for the planet and walking), millionaires paying their full taxes, politicians putting the many before the few or even discredited cronies quitting failed football clubs.

Unfortunately you only seem animated by one of those categories...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 20 June 2020 - 10:42 AM

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 20 June 2020 - 10:33 AM, said:

You still don't get it, do you.

My replies weren't t*t-for-tat, they were questions how you'd apply your prejudices. Whilst highlighting the double standards you're once again demonstrating.

Because you've still not told us how you'd police your highly selective measures: Plod turning up at a benefit recipient's house and frog-marching them into some re-education facility 'cos they've been seen smoking? Drinking? Eating a McDonalds, perhaps?

Sounds very much like China to me. Didn't know you were a closet Maoist, Dave.

Oh, and by the way; I know from personal experience that the adult education you're suggesting has been decimated by ten years of tory cuts.

I'm all for folk doing the right thing. Unemployed parents putting snap on the table before ale down their throats, middle class vanity vehicle drivers parking in the right spot (or even doing their bit for the planet and walking), millionaires paying their full taxes, politicians putting the many before the few or even discredited cronies quitting failed football clubs.

Unfortunately you only seem animated by one of those categories...

If I don't get I'm pretty sure neither do you.

The discussion was started about children not getting fed and you can throw all your innuendos and class warfare at the discussion but that achieves the square root of zero in searching for an answer. I agree with you fully about vanity vehicle drivers but surely that is a different problem to be tackled and nothing to do with snap on the table.

If any progress is to be made within society In resolving this problem then people are going to have to put aside their wars of words and actually think about what can be done about it because clearly the present system isn't working. Then don't keep going on about the last 10 years of tory cuts because this has been a problem throughout my lifetime and a fair number of labour governments have failed to address it too.

I think this discussion has run it's course as far as I am concerned, Chris, but I sincerely hope that going forward some new initiatives can be brought to the table and developed to go a long way to solving the problem. But, that won't happen if people oppose change just for the sake of opposing whatever is suggested.

[Westbars Spireite]

I've got my hands on a couple of those vouchers and am going to see if I can get a few tinnies and a deck of John Players with them later.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 20 June 2020 - 11:18 AM, said:

If I don't get I'm pretty sure neither do you.

The discussion was started about children not getting fed and you can throw all your innuendos and class warfare at the discussion but that achieves the square root of zero in searching for an answer. I agree with you fully about vanity vehicle drivers but surely that is a different problem to be tackled and nothing to do with snap on the table.

If any progress is to be made within society In resolving this problem then people are going to have to put aside their wars of words and actually think about what can be done about it because clearly the present system isn't working. Then don't keep going on about the last 10 years of tory cuts because this has been a problem throughout my lifetime and a fair number of labour governments have failed to address it too.

I think this discussion has run it's course as far as I am concerned, Chris, but I sincerely hope that going forward some new initiatives can be brought to the table and developed to go a long way to solving the problem. But, that won't happen if people oppose change just for the sake of opposing whatever is suggested.

So that's a 'no', then.

You talk of somehow educating a 'them' but have nowt to back-up your proposed policies.

But then it's probably a good thing you've said nothing more of your disturbing 'larger than average families' and 'contraception' stuff.

Not sure how pointing out my own personal experience proving the very adult education you're espousing being decimated is 'class warfare', either. Just another pesky little fact you'd rather ignore, I guess.

All that said my friendly invitation to visit a local foodbank - and please understand it is a friendly invitation despite our differences - still holds. Maybe, just perhaps, you might re-think some of your prejudices if you did...