[dtp]

60s 70s Spireite, on 03 June 2020 - 07:54 AM, said:

If you took every other row out, and kept a two seat distance between spectators, by my reckoning you have reduced capacity to around 1600. Which of the 3000 season ticket holders would be allowed to attend? What about the turnstiles- are they to be cleaned after every turn? What about a club like Dover, who only have c.1000 seats? Using the same system they would be allowed little more than 160 at the match. What about the players? Would they be happy playing and making contact during training and matches when the virus was still around? What if they are shielding someone at home? How will clubs be able to cover their costs with the much reduced capacity and without also selling food and beverages, and offering corporate entertainment?
Not sure about the Chinese proverb, but I do know good planners map out all the pluses and the minuses, and then ensure all the minuses are properly overcome.

At least you've given it some thought. Now do the same calculations if social distancing is reduced to one metre and add in a factor for members of the same household and I don't think you would be far away from the existing ST numbers.

You are absolutely right about pluses and minuses too but, again, you are not saying things can't be done. Yes, there are bridges to cross but recognising where there are bridges and how to cross them is all part of any necessary planning. Then coming up with concrete suggestions rather than just negative criticism is the hard bit as you seem to recognise.

Pubs, restaurants and takeaways will be serving food and beverages before football with attendances restart so something can be learned from how they do it. Policing and stewarding should be easier and cheaper if crowds are controlled by tickets and spaced seating. Players should eventually be comforted by what happens with those playing in the near future etc etc.

As I keep repeating we are planning for a future not for the present.

[clarevoyant.]

Lessons could be learned from the Albert Hall. The first 6 weeks of the proms have been cancelled but apparently ambitious plans for the go ahead of the final 2 weeks (August 28 start) still linger. In the case of this event you can imagine no expense will be sparred in making it completely safe for group trumpet blowing and the audience having free issue catheters.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 03 June 2020 - 08:16 AM, said:

At least you've given it some thought. Now do the same calculations if social distancing is reduced to one metre and add in a factor for members of the same household and I don't think you would be far away from the existing ST numbers.

You are absolutely right about pluses and minuses too but, again, you are not saying things can't be done. Yes, there are bridges to cross but recognising where there are bridges and how to cross them is all part of any necessary planning. Then coming up with concrete suggestions rather than just negative criticism is the hard bit as you seem to recognise.

Pubs, restaurants and takeaways will be serving food and beverages before football with attendances restart so something can be learned from how they do it. Policing and stewarding should be easier and cheaper if crowds are controlled by tickets and spaced seating. Players should eventually be comforted by what happens with those playing in the near future etc etc.

As I keep repeating we are planning for a future not for the present.

But you can't keep dismissing issues past and present by referencing some possible future, Dave.

I asked how you'd address the two meter rule currently in situ. I asked how you'd address queueing. I asked how you'd address the time needed to get in and out.

Yet all I'm seeing is a lot of 'if', 'maybe', 'perhaps' and 'hopefully'.

Infact even by the measures you've suggested - yet it took our friend '60's/70's' to turn into numbers - there'd be barely sixteen hundred allowed in. And you've still failed to answer what'd happen to the other thousand or so season ticket holders. Let alone any pay-on-the-day punters.

A Cummins-esque one law for some, a different law for others, perhaps?

Dunno about any Chinese proverbs, but here's a Birdholme one: just crossing your fingers never solved a thing...

[Westbars Spireite]

Waller is my hero, on 03 June 2020 - 07:32 AM, said:

I mentioned this a while ago -this is something that many clubs need to introduce.
You could even go as far as paying £10 to watch a home match live & £5 for an away match, with a yearly subscription fee.

Even when all this calms down & people start to feel a sense of normality, there are still going to be people who are still anxious about going into public places & stopping themselves from experiencing the things they normally enjoyed...like watching football.
Having a TV channel helps those people...i for one, feel anxious going out because some people are just stupid with a complete disregard for the current situation.

There could be huge benefits to this, especially if the team is doing well...it attracts more interest, it attracts more subscriptions, it attracts more fans

And when everything is clear & everyone is confident, you will see huge crowds at football matches - CFC alongside 2 or 3 more teams in the national league are going to be fortunate enough to be a more 'stable' club unlike others in the league as they only attract sub 1000 fans...these are the clubs that are in big trouble.

How are we a stable club?!

This post has been edited by Westbars Spireite: 03 June 2020 - 11:47 AM

[howardb]

Season will start with fans.......plenty of planning needed but sounding promising; I'll throw in another topic for discussion - how about social distance rules to vary depending on age (just 12% of corona deaths have occurred in the under 65 age bracket and just 1% under 45) - surely whatever measures we take should be based on risk

https://www.derbyshi...V_LMGinmkBE3_wk

This post has been edited by howardb: 03 June 2020 - 12:11 PM

[BurySpireite]

howardb, on 03 June 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

Season will start with fans.......plenty of planning needed but sounding promising; I'll throw in another topic for discussion - how about social distance rules to vary depending on age (just 12% of corona deaths have occurred in the under 65 age bracket and just 1% under 45) - surely whatever measures we take should be based on risk

https://www.derbyshi...V_LMGinmkBE3_wk

I would hazard a guess though that the average under 65 who catches it will spread it to more people than the over 65s due to being less cautious, more socially connected, more mobile and travelling more. So the viral burden in terms of spreading the virus may be even worse than in the older group. It's definitely not as simple as just looking at the effects on whoever catches it directly from being in the crowd.

[SpireiteFitzy]

BurySpireite, on 03 June 2020 - 01:01 PM, said:

I would hazard a guess though that the average under 65 who catches it will spread it to more people than the over 65s due to being less cautious, more socially connected, more mobile and travelling more. So the viral burden in terms of spreading the virus may be even worse than in the older group. It's definitely not as simple as just looking at the effects on whoever catches it directly from being in the crowd.

And that's the problem. There is no simple solution. There are far too many variables in play and for that reason alone means it shouldn't be getting looked at yet. Im sure humanity can survive without live football a little longer for the greater good.

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 03 June 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

But you can't keep dismissing issues past and present by referencing some possible future, Dave.

I asked how you'd address the two meter rule currently in situ. I asked how you'd address queueing. I asked how you'd address the time needed to get in and out.

Yet all I'm seeing is a lot of 'if', 'maybe', 'perhaps' and 'hopefully'.

Infact even by the measures you've suggested - yet it took our friend '60's/70's' to turn into numbers - there'd be barely sixteen hundred allowed in. And you've still failed to answer what'd happen to the other thousand or so season ticket holders. Let alone any pay-on-the-day punters.

A Cummins-esque one law for some, a different law for others, perhaps?

Dunno about any Chinese proverbs, but here's a Birdholme one: just crossing your fingers never solved a thing...

Chris, I'm not looking for arguments here just suggesting that unless discussions take place regarding the many issues then we will never move forward.

I don't pretend to know all the answers but people have learned to queue patiently to enter and leave in an orderly fashion at supermarkets over the last few weeks. And, going by your calculations evacuating the stadium should not be a problem anyway.

I've made a suggestion regarding the toilet facilities. I don't know the actual measurements between seats and rows to answer the two metre rule but I do know that going forward there will be further easing of the social distancing rules, some countries are working on a one metre rule anyway, and lessons are going to be learned from the experiences of others in different businesses and situations.

Regarding the posh seats perhaps these should be reserved for the NAPM brigade in the first instance before being offered to others should there not be enough takers.

Whatever answers are eventually come up with you can be sure there will be answers but without discussing the issues at the higher levels in a pro-active way then the powers that be are in danger of being accused of not being prepared by the very people that make no suggestions themselves. And, I agree just crossing one's fingers doesn't solve anything but neither does just blandly dismissing any ideas brought to the table.

[60s 70s Spireite]

dtp, on 03 June 2020 - 01:51 PM, said:

Chris, I'm not looking for arguments here just suggesting that unless discussions take place regarding the many issues then we will never move forward.

I don't pretend to know all the answers but people have learned to queue patiently to enter and leave in an orderly fashion at supermarkets over the last few weeks. And, going by your calculations evacuating the stadium should not be a problem anyway.

I've made a suggestion regarding the toilet facilities. I don't know the actual measurements between seats and rows to answer the two metre rule but I do know that going forward there will be further easing of the social distancing rules, some countries are working on a one metre rule anyway, and lessons are going to be learned from the experiences of others in different businesses and situations.

Regarding the posh seats perhaps these should be reserved for the NAPM brigade in the first instance before being offered to others should there not be enough takers.

Whatever answers are eventually come up with you can be sure there will be answers but without discussing the issues at the higher levels in a pro-active way then the powers that be are in danger of being accused of not being prepared by the very people that make no suggestions themselves. And, I agree just crossing one's fingers doesn't solve anything but neither does just blandly dismissing any ideas brought to the table.

There’s one flaw in your comparison to supermarket queues. Customers arrive throughout a 12 hour day, and don't spend too long in the aisles. You keep saying you are offering potential solutions, but all you have said is basically once people have sat down, it shouldn’t be too difficult to socially distance. How they get there, how you keep a lid on those prepared to ignore social distancing (and let’s face it, football crowds are some of the most ill disciplined of all gatherings) and how you accommodate the demand for tickets, especially at grounds with little to no seating, is all absent. The solution won’t be in finding a way to accommodate spectators in a lock down, it will be coming out of lock down itself.
As I’ve said before, you’re wasting your time.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 03 June 2020 - 01:51 PM, said:

Chris, I'm not looking for arguments here just suggesting that unless discussions take place regarding the many issues then we will never move forward.

I don't pretend to know all the answers but people have learned to queue patiently to enter and leave in an orderly fashion at supermarkets over the last few weeks. And, going by your calculations evacuating the stadium should not be a problem anyway.

I've made a suggestion regarding the toilet facilities. I don't know the actual measurements between seats and rows to answer the two metre rule but I do know that going forward there will be further easing of the social distancing rules, some countries are working on a one metre rule anyway, and lessons are going to be learned from the experiences of others in different businesses and situations.

Regarding the posh seats perhaps these should be reserved for the NAPM brigade in the first instance before being offered to others should there not be enough takers.

Whatever answers are eventually come up with you can be sure there will be answers but without discussing the issues at the higher levels in a pro-active way then the powers that be are in danger of being accused of not being prepared by the very people that make no suggestions themselves. And, I agree just crossing one's fingers doesn't solve anything but neither does just blandly dismissing any ideas brought to the table.

It's not an argument, Dave.

I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your lockdown loosening and asking how you'd deal with them?

No need to get defensive, just as there's no need for any NAPM/posh seat jibes, either.

I'll say it again: I totally understand how much some folk are missing football and how desperate they are to return.

But I also think saturdays doing something else are a small price to pay for people's safety...

[CFC91]

We will be back at games sooner than I thought in my opinion. If bars, pubs, restaurants, supermarkets, airlines etc are cracking on then football will do too.

Might be at a limited capacity, ST holders only, no away fans etc but it’ll happen and I for one will look forward to that day.

[Blue5]

howardb, on 03 June 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

Season will start with fans.......plenty of planning needed but sounding promising; I'll throw in another topic for discussion - how about social distance rules to vary depending on age (just 12% of corona deaths have occurred in the under 65 age bracket and just 1% under 45) - surely whatever measures we take should be based on risk

https://www.derbyshi...V_LMGinmkBE3_wk

Good thread, H.

I am not sure we should be differentiating between groups based on risk. Given members of the BAME community appear to be at the greatest risk, it would prove, for me, to be a massive step back in history.

This post has been edited by Blue5: 03 June 2020 - 05:14 PM

[Blue5]

60s 70s Spireite, on 03 June 2020 - 07:54 AM, said:

If you took every other row out, and kept a two seat distance between spectators, by my reckoning you have reduced capacity to around 1600. Which of the 3000 season ticket holders would be allowed to attend? What about the turnstiles- are they to be cleaned after every turn? What about a club like Dover, who only have c.1000 seats? Using the same system they would be allowed little more than 160 at the match. What about the players? Would they be happy playing and making contact during training and matches when the virus was still around? What if they are shielding someone at home? How will clubs be able to cover their costs with the much reduced capacity and without also selling food and beverages, and offering corporate entertainment?
Not sure about the Chinese proverb, but I do know good planners map out all the pluses and the minuses, and then ensure all the minuses are properly overcome.

No toilets, no shop, no hospitality, no concourse sales. Turnstiles offer a big risk, but surely these could be bypassed by using the fire exits and having a contactless entry system. Seats, even with segregation present a big risk as people walk pass and in some cases, touch the seats before they get to their own.

Pitching up on Stand Road or the training ground would prove less problematic in the current environment!

[Blue5]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 03 June 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

But you can't keep dismissing issues past and present by referencing some possible future, Dave.

I asked how you'd address the two meter rule currently in situ. I asked how you'd address queueing. I asked how you'd address the time needed to get in and out.

Yet all I'm seeing is a lot of 'if', 'maybe', 'perhaps' and 'hopefully'.

Infact even by the measures you've suggested - yet it took our friend '60's/70's' to turn into numbers - there'd be barely sixteen hundred allowed in. And you've still failed to answer what'd happen to the other thousand or so season ticket holders. Let alone any pay-on-the-day punters.

A Cummins-esque one law for some, a different law for others, perhaps?

Dunno about any Chinese proverbs, but here's a Birdholme one: just crossing your fingers never solved a thing...

Don't panic! A sponsor is itching to part with their cash, so according to you know who, the Safety Advisory Group have recommended that each seat is now to have its own dugout!

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 03 June 2020 - 03:26 PM, said:

It's not an argument, Dave.

I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your lockdown loosening and asking how you'd deal with them?

No need to get defensive, just as there's no need for any NAPM/posh seat jibes, either.

I'll say it again: I totally understand how much some folk are missing football and how desperate they are to return.

But I also think saturdays doing something else are a small price to pay for people's safety...

Basically, Chris, all I am saying is that people at the top need to be in discussion now with a view to how they can have a planned return to work in the football industry. After all a lot of jobs depend on it. Not planning means not being prepared. I accept different Clubs will have different problems but guidance as to the things they should be looking at doing now will help in the long run. It will be no use at all if two or three clubs have acceptable solutions but others have just waited for the appropriate guidance and then find it too late to comply and so cannot meet their particular leagues requirements to commence playing. All teams have to be ready at the same time if the league is to kick off on the same day.

For instance, my thoughts regarding toilett facilities requires a level of construction work. If it can be agreed that this is a way to go then work could be put in place sooner rather than later. I am sure that there are issues which can be discussed and agreed upon with a view to making it safer to accommodate fans, however restricted, as part of the planning for a return to football at the lower levels.

By the way, I didn't think I was getting defensive nor did I think my jibe about NAPM was much different to yours regarding Dominic Cummings.

[clarevoyant.]

Blue5, on 03 June 2020 - 05:31 PM, said:

Don't panic! A sponsor is itching to part with their cash, so according to you know who, the Safety Advisory Group have recommended that each seat is now to have its own dugout!

Naughty, naughty.

Another problem albeit not insurmountable, balls landing in the crowd, are they thrown back? Left for some kid to reclaim?If a multi ball system is introduced a load of balls would be required.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 03 June 2020 - 05:43 PM, said:

Basically, Chris, all I am saying is that people at the top need to be in discussion now with a view to how they can have a planned return to work in the football industry. After all a lot of jobs depend on it. Not planning means not being prepared. I accept different Clubs will have different problems but guidance as to the things they should be looking at doing now will help in the long run. It will be no use at all if two or three clubs have acceptable solutions but others have just waited for the appropriate guidance and then find it too late to comply and so cannot meet their particular leagues requirements to commence playing. All teams have to be ready at the same time if the league is to kick off on the same day.

For instance, my thoughts regarding toilett facilities requires a level of construction work. If it can be agreed that this is a way to go then work could be put in place sooner rather than later. I am sure that there are issues which can be discussed and agreed upon with a view to making it safer to accommodate fans, however restricted, as part of the planning for a return to football at the lower levels.

By the way, I didn't think I was getting defensive nor did I think my jibe about NAPM was much different to yours regarding Dominic Cummings.

Okay, apologies.

Perhaps Cu**ins should be a name unmentionable in civilised circles.

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 03 June 2020 - 06:12 PM, said:

Okay, apologies.

Perhaps Cu**ins should be a name unmentionable in civilised circles.

Apologies not needed, Chris.

Cummings should have been asked to resign and if he didn't he should have been fired. I somewhat understood his dilemma but what he did was not in the spirit of the lockdown measures he should have been setting an example of.

There seems as if there might have been a bit of a breakthrough with the Trust and if there is I would like to think the NAPM lot will return if room can be found for them within any crowd restrictions which might be necessary. If they don't eventually return I am not sure that fits with the spirit of the reasons for them staying away in the first place though.

[mr. smith]

whilst social distanced crowds could be a goer in the prem & championship (subsidised by sky/bt money) further down the leagues it cant be financially worthwhile.
I don't think we will play until 'normality' returns.
on the upside the way the govt is dropping its covid restrictions that will prob be sooner rather than later. I wouldn't bet against sept.

[Spire-Power]

Absolute farce and reckless to even talk about getting a prescribed number of socially distanced fans into a stadium when nobody should be in there until the virus has passed.