[Search & Destroy]

How we voting then?
Personally, I'd like to negotiate our own trade deals but not be governed by Europe.

Don't think it'll happen though, like Scotland, the people want it but the political machine will ensure we're too fearful to take the plunge.

If that Scottish vote were to take place again it'd be a landslide

[fishini]

Search and Destroy, on 28 May 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

How we voting then?
Personally, I'd like to negotiate our own trade deals but not be governed by Europe.

Don't think it'll happen though, like Scotland, the people want it but the political machine will ensure we're too fearful to take the plunge.

If that Scottish vote were to take place again it'd be a landslide

In but lets hope a new deal can be forged

[Search & Destroy]

If a deal could be forged that denied free movement I'd be in, it won't though.
Or free movement between similar economic nations, France Getmany Belgium Holland Sweden Finland Norway etc, but to half of poverty stricken Eastern Europe???

[Siberian Spireite]

Search and Destroy, on 28 May 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

If a deal could be forged that denied free movement I'd be in, it won't though.
Or free movement between similar economic nations, France Getmany Belgium Holland Sweden Finland Norway etc, but to half of poverty stricken Eastern Europe???

In.

The EU has its roots in organisations formed with the major goal of preserving peace in western Europe, and it has done that since 1945. No two genuine democracies have ever fought a war as they are too heavily interdependent, economically, and institutions such as the EU give them peaceful means of conflict resolution.

As for freedom of movement, share the wealth. Just because I was lucky enough to be born in Britain doesn't mean others should suffer, though of course there has to be some sort of controlled migration system in place. We need younger migrants to address the demographic situation in the UK anyway.

Having said that, the CAP needs serious reform as protectionism of developed world food markets strangles the development of agriculture in the developing world.

[lindo-spireite]

Search and Destroy, on 28 May 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

If a deal could be forged that denied free movement I'd be in, it won't though.
Or free movement between similar economic nations, France Getmany Belgium Holland Sweden Finland Norway etc, but to half of poverty stricken Eastern Europe???

I'm with you here

Also, any migrants that enter the country shouldn't have access to any benefits

[fishini]

lindo-spireite, on 28 May 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

I'm with you here

Also, any migrants that enter the country shouldn't have access to any benefits

Should brits abroad be treated with the same distain as we treat people who move here?

[Search & Destroy]

fishini, on 28 May 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Should brits abroad be treated with the same distain as we treat people who move here?

If there were tens of thousands of unemployed young men descending on communities then yes, I guess they would be.

Anyway, it's for other countries to decide whether they want uncontrollable migration, if they don't then they can push for their own referendum

I just hope the whole thing doesn't get decided by who's viewpoint has the most funding

[calvin plummers socks]

I'd love us to get the Euro so we're in line with the rest of Europe

[HistoricWarwick]

Got to be in but I would love a Europe that matches the one in the days of Jeux sans frontieres.

Here comes the Belgians....

[frearsghost]

HistoricWarwick, on 28 May 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

Got to be in but I would love a Europe that matches the one in the days of Jeux sans frontieres.

Here comes the Belgians....

Got to be out. In 1975 the UK voted to stay in a European Trading Community. We've been lied to ever since and now the United States of Europe enters it's final phase of completion governed by the European political elite. Gramsci, the Marxist economist, was right. The cultural Marxist overthrow of Europe will have been completed without a bullet being fired but with the consent of the ordinary people whom he called the footsoldiers.

Jean Monnet, the founding father of the EU said:

"European nations should be guided towards the superstate
without the people understanding what is happening.
This can be accomplshed by successive steps, each disguised
as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually
and irreversibly lead to federation."

There are now 29 nation states that have fallen under the European flag. This is bad for democracy. Nation states no longer vote for those who draft major laws. Power resides in the unelected Brussels Commission. Despite appearances, the UK government has been denuded of real power. Control over our economy, military and population is fast disappearing yet people think this is progress. Generations sacrificed their lives for these things yet today, we scoff at such things and seem content to sacrifice these fundamental principles without a care in the world under an illusion that this is democracy.

Look to history and one understands that real fascism takes root in Europe, particularly Southern Europe and it makes no difference if the insurgents are members of a club or not. Add the toxic mix of the EU pushing up to the Russian border and the addition of Muslim Albania and Turkey joining and you realise how important it is to maintain 100% of our sovereignty and avoid being dragged into the subsumation of country.

History demonstrates, time and time again, that European security rests on there being a strong, independent Britain backed by America. Most people under forty have been fed the European dream (Read the 'Frankfurt Group') and have no idea of European history. These are the people who are most enthusiastic about a United States of Europe and believe that an economic imperative is the prime motivator.

This post has been edited by frearsghost: 29 May 2015 - 04:19 PM

[Siberian Spireite]

frearsghost, on 29 May 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Got to be out. In 1975 the UK voted to stay in a European Trading Community. We've been lied to ever since and now the United States of Europe enters it's final phase of completion governed by the European political elite. Gramsci, the Marxist economist, was right. The cultural Marxist overthrow of Europe will have been completed without a bullet being fired but with the consent of the ordinary people whom he called the footsoldiers.

Jean Monnet, the founding father of the EU said:

"European nations should be guided towards the superstate
without the people understanding what is happening.
This can be accomplshed by successive steps, each disguised
as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually
and irreversibly lead to federation."

There are now 29 nation states that have fallen under the European flag. This is bad for democracy. Nation states no longer vote for those who draft major laws. Power resides in the unelected Brussels Commission. Despite appearances, the UK government has been denuded of real power. Control over our economy, military and population is fast disappearing yet people think this is progress. Generations sacrificed their lives for these things yet today, we scoff at such things and seem content to sacrifice these fundamental principles without a care in the world under an illusion that this is democracy.

Look to history and one understands that real fascism takes root in Europe, particularly Southern Europe and it makes no difference if the insurgents are members of a club or not. Add the toxic mix of the EU pushing up to the Russian border and the addition of Muslim Albania and Turkey joining and you realise how important it is to maintain 100% of our sovereignty and avoid being dragged into the subsumation of country.

History demonstrates, time and time again, that European security rests on there being a strong, independent Britain backed by America. Most people under forty have been fed the European dream (Read the 'Frankfurt Group') and have no idea of European history. These are the people who are most enthusiastic about a United States of Europe and believe that an economic imperative is the prime motivator.

You make your case well, though I would argue that, despite being under forty (just) and pro-Europe I have a fairly extensive knowledge of European history.

Russia is far more concerned about NATO than about the EU, but as the EU becomes ever more a political as well as an economic union, the political problems faced by EU states bordering Russia may well increasingly impact the UK.

As for the Monnet quote, I found it so unlikely that he had said that that I did a quick search and turned up this:

http://eurealist.co.uk/?p=676

Various other sites seem to support this one's conclusion that (your own Monnet quote) is seemingly a misquote based on an author's interpretation of Monnet saying “The fusion (of economic functions) would compel nations to fuse their sovereignty into that of a single European State”, which seems altogether less Machiavellian.

[oldgoat]

frearsghost, on 29 May 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

Got to be out. In 1975 the UK voted to stay in a European Trading Community. We've been lied to ever since and now the United States of Europe enters it's final phase of completion governed by the European political elite. Gramsci, the Marxist economist, was right. The cultural Marxist overthrow of Europe will have been completed without a bullet being fired but with the consent of the ordinary people whom he called the footsoldiers.

Jean Monnet, the founding father of the EU said:

"European nations should be guided towards the superstate
without the people understanding what is happening.
This can be accomplshed by successive steps, each disguised
as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually
and irreversibly lead to federation."

There are now 29 nation states that have fallen under the European flag. This is bad for democracy. Nation states no longer vote for those who draft major laws. Power resides in the unelected Brussels Commission. Despite appearances, the UK government has been denuded of real power. Control over our economy, military and population is fast disappearing yet people think this is progress. Generations sacrificed their lives for these things yet today, we scoff at such things and seem content to sacrifice these fundamental principles without a care in the world under an illusion that this is democracy.

Look to history and one understands that real fascism takes root in Europe, particularly Southern Europe and it makes no difference if the insurgents are members of a club or not. Add the toxic mix of the EU pushing up to the Russian border and the addition of Muslim Albania and Turkey joining and you realise how important it is to maintain 100% of our sovereignty and avoid being dragged into the subsumation of country.

History demonstrates, time and time again, that European security rests on there being a strong, independent Britain backed by America. Most people under forty have been fed the European dream (Read the 'Frankfurt Group') and have no idea of European history. These are the people who are most enthusiastic about a United States of Europe and believe that an economic imperative is the prime motivator.

" History demonstrates, time and time again, that European security rests on there being a strong, independent Britain backed by America. "

Amazing quote from your post !

Does your version of history ignore 2 " world wars " that started and decimated europe ?

[Wooden Spoon]

fishini, on 28 May 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

Should brits abroad be treated with the same distain as we treat people who move here?

Absolutely. If you move to another country you do so only by standing on your own 2 feet.




There are enough reasons to be OUT without even mentioning immigration

calvin plummers socks, on 28 May 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

I'd love us to get the Euro so we're in line with the rest of Europe

economic madness!!!

[frearsghost]

oldgoat, on 30 May 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

" History demonstrates, time and time again, that European security rests on there being a strong, independent Britain backed by America. "

Amazing quote from your post !

Does your version of history ignore 2 " world wars " that started and decimated europe ?

You will have to be more explicit I'm afraid. I don't see the point you are trying to make.

[Middle East]

Out...

[frearsghost]

Siberian Spireite, on 29 May 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

You make your case well, though I would argue that, despite being under forty (just) and pro-Europe I have a fairly extensive knowledge of European history.

Russia is far more concerned about NATO than about the EU, but as the EU becomes ever more a political as well as an economic union, the political problems faced by EU states bordering Russia may well increasingly impact the UK.

As for the Monnet quote, I found it so unlikely that he had said that that I did a quick search and turned up this:

http://eurealist.co.uk/?p=676

Various other sites seem to support this one's conclusion that (your own Monnet quote) is seemingly a misquote based on an author's interpretation of Monnet saying “The fusion (of economic functions) would compel nations to fuse their sovereignty into that of a single European State”, which seems altogether less Machiavellian.

Thanks. Monnet's quote/words, however phrased, bear testament to his political vision now shared and pursued by the European political elite.

One thing I'd like to add though. The world is a dangerous place. Churchill called North Africa the soft underbelly of Europe and we are now seeing why. A government's first responsibility is the defence of the country yet the European Federacy demands open borders and the free movement of people. Given the emerging threat of Islamic terrorism in Europe this is short sighted, irresponsible and dangerous.

The security of Europe can be enhanced by nation states reclaiming border controls and re-introducing passport checks and it needs to be done before the horse has bolted. In order for Britain to do this, exit from Europe is a necessity.

[Siberian Spireite]

In a global economic system that creates a minority of 'haves' (including the UK) and a majority of 'have-nots' (including North Africa as mentioned) then inevitably, sooner or later, the have-nots will come knocking to try to break down the doors of the citadels of privilege. I would favour systemic reform over pulling up the drawbridge.

The external borders of the EU are actually very heavily policed- I've been across them on land (legally!) enough times to have seen it at first hand. The idea of free movement, rightly or wrongly ,is supposed to apply only to those privilege enough to live within the EU. The addition of poorer Eastern European economies to the mix has inevitably created economic migration, and whilst I understand that this worries people, the influx of a young, economically active population which comes in to fill the demographic gap during good times and then leaves during bad times, is no bad thing in my own view.

[Search & Destroy]

Siberian Spireite, on 31 May 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

In a global economic system that creates a minority of 'haves' (including the UK) and a majority of 'have-nots' (including North Africa as mentioned) then inevitably, sooner or later, the have-nots will come knocking to try to break down the doors of the citadels of privilege. I would favour systemic reform over pulling up the drawbridge.

The external borders of the EU are actually very heavily policed- I've been across them on land (legally!) enough times to have seen it at first hand. The idea of free movement, rightly or wrongly ,is supposed to apply only to those privilege enough to live within the EU. The addition of poorer Eastern European economies to the mix has inevitably created economic migration, and whilst I understand that this worries people, the influx of a young, economically active population which comes in to fill the demographic gap during good times and then leaves during bad times, is no bad thing in my own view.

There's obviously not hundreds and hundreds of Eastern Europeans trawling around the streets of Belper.

[Siberian Spireite]

Search and Destroy, on 31 May 2015 - 08:51 PM, said:

There's obviously not hundreds and hundreds of Eastern Europeans trawling around the streets of Belper.

Correct. But then, I've lived in places where there have been.

[Wooden Spoon]

calvin plummers socks said:

1432846495[/url]"]1432846495[/url]' post='[url="tel:[url="tel:1119911"]1119911[/url]"]1119911[/url]']I'd love us to get the Euro so we're in line with the rest of Europe

Again we see yet more dithering over Greece, amid more fears of a Greek default on loan payments. As it has done for the last 2 years+ - most likely leading to no action anywhere, with Greece (and the wider euro zone) continuing to just muddle through.

They were too slow on interest rate cuts, were far too slow, and no where near aggressive enough when it came to implementing a programme of quantatitive easing to put money into the system.

The EU central bank is without leadership and has its head in the sand regarding levels of debt, investment and economic stimulusAnd you would love to join that chaos?


the sooner we leave this rediculous political project the better

This post has been edited by a kick in the balls: 15 June 2015 - 03:55 PM