[valemadness]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 20 March 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

That's a very Victorian attitude, Ian. Infact I can picture some bloated mill owner declaring 'If we offer enhanced benefits to the lower classes it'll just make them lazy and workshy' back then.

And it's not political pointscoring to demand the government stand by their own pledges. Health and wealth are inextricably linked, none more so than during the current crisis. Scenario one: bloke wakes up with CV19 symptoms, decides ninety-odd quid won't even pay his rent, so goes out and spread the virus. Scenario two: bloke wakes up with CV19 symptoms, decides he can just about manage on the temporarily boosted benefits so isolates helping to stop the disease.

Same applies to employees of Barnet FC, CFC, or any other business in Britain...

There is at least 1 person who works in the yard where my husband works that started with a cough last weekend, but cannot survive on £94 a week SSP. The company they work for cannot afford to pay everyone full pay for 2 weeks. They have now also been designated a key industry, so will need to keep running and although some of the office staff could work from home, barrels of oil cannot be filled at home.

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 20 March 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

That's a very Victorian attitude, Ian. Infact I can picture some bloated mill owner declaring 'If we offer enhanced benefits to the lower classes it'll just make them lazy and workshy' back then.

And it's not political pointscoring to demand the government stand by their own pledges. Health and wealth are inextricably linked, none more so than during the current crisis. Scenario one: bloke wakes up with CV19 symptoms, decides ninety-odd quid won't even pay his rent, so goes out and spread the virus. Scenario two: bloke wakes up with CV19 symptoms, decides he can just about manage on the temporarily boosted benefits so isolates helping to stop the disease.

Same applies to employees of Barnet FC, CFC, or any other business in Britain...

Whatever one's politics, Chris, surely it has to be admitted that Boris's life at the top has got off to a very difficult start what with the floods and now corona virus. Being prepared to give daily updates etc brings over the seriousness of what we are now going through as a nation. Yes, they are firefighting but who wouldn't be?

That said, I've been quite impressed with how Rishi Sunak has gone about his business in very difficult and trying times the likes of which have not been previously seen in my lifetime.

For all our sakes let's hope that the measures being taken pull us through so that we can have a future to look forward to.

[Benno Spire]

Just some info for the SSP argument.
I am aware of a workplace who employ 79 staff and up to 2 days ago told staff that if they went off sick they would only get SSP.Yesterday they were told they would get full pay if off sick. This morning 49 of their staff rang in sick.

[azul]

dtp, on 20 March 2020 - 08:19 PM, said:

Whatever one's politics, Chris, surely it has to be admitted that Boris's life at the top has got off to a very difficult start what with the floods and now corona virus. Being prepared to give daily updates etc brings over the seriousness of what we are now going through as a nation. Yes, they are firefighting but who wouldn't be?

That said, I've been quite impressed with how Rishi Sunak has gone about his business in very difficult and trying times the likes of which have not been previously seen in my lifetime.
If
For all our sakes let's hope that the measures being taken pull us through so that we can have a future to look forward to.

De Pfaffel is being dragged along by events, reluctant to make hard decisions and is continually behind the curve.

In all fairness, Sunak is at least a clear and concise communicator

[Spire-Power]

Somebody gotta stop socialist Boris before he ruins the country 😂

[azul]

Benno Spire, on 20 March 2020 - 09:00 PM, said:

Just some info for the SSP argument.
I am aware of a workplace who employ 79 staff and up to 2 days ago told staff that if they went off sick they would only get SSP.Yesterday they were told they would get full pay if off sick. This morning 49 of their staff rang in sick.

Do you believe the government has made a bad decision on that anecdotal evidence because I don’t

Spire-Power, on 20 March 2020 - 09:15 PM, said:

Somebody gotta stop socialist Boris before he ruins the country 😂

Reds under the bed

[Benno Spire]

[quote name='azul' timestamp='1584739141' post='1512115']
Do you believe the government has made a bad decision on that anecdotal evidence because I don't

I think it’s a good decision, anything that stops the spread and keeps people’s heads above water has to be good but as always the devil is in the detail but saving lives in my opinion is far more important than money.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 20 March 2020 - 08:19 PM, said:

Whatever one's politics, Chris, surely it has to be admitted that Boris's life at the top has got off to a very difficult start what with the floods and now corona virus. Being prepared to give daily updates etc brings over the seriousness of what we are now going through as a nation. Yes, they are firefighting but who wouldn't be?

That said, I've been quite impressed with how Rishi Sunak has gone about his business in very difficult and trying times the likes of which have not been previously seen in my lifetime.

For all our sakes let's hope that the measures being taken pull us through so that we can have a future to look forward to.

That'll be the same 'honest' Johnson who couldn't wait to get in front of the cameras during December's floods yet was hosting Tory party fundraisers - where those who conveniently avoided austerity paid fifty grand a go to play tennis with him - rather than get wet more recently (he had to be forced into the daily updates, too).

As for Sunak, the bloke who leapt enthusiastically forward in true Corporal Jones style when his predecessor demonstrated rare integrity by quitting rather than bow to Cummins' dictat, I wonder how many times he's accused the Gordon Brown government of 'bankrupting the country' despite taking similar measures when faced with a similar financial meltdown.

The hypocrisy doesn't end there, either. The experts who every government representative insists, mantra like, are guiding them are the same experts Johnson and his Vote Leave cronies have spent four years trashing. The immigrants currently performing heroics in an already understaffed NHS (nearly a hundred thousand short at the last count) are the same immigrants they've so often vilified. The doctors and nurses who yet again - YET AGAIN - go way beyond the call of duty are the same doctors and nurses denied burseries, wage rises and whose contracts the Tories wanted to tear up. The Boris Johnson who was a cheerleader for bailed out bankers now saying he won't 'repeat the mistake of giving money to them instead of everyone else'. The Tory MP claiming no deal preparations mean we're better positioned than EU countries on 'Five Live' yesterday.

Then there're increasing reports of front line staff lacking the necessary coveralls despite Johnson insisting they'd been stockpiled. Then there're increasing reports of front line staff being at home when a simple test could allow them to return. Then there're the millions of so called 'gig economy' workers who still - STILL - remain in the dark about their income.

I do agree that just like the worldwide economic crash of 2008 no one could've foreseen or properly prepared for the current crisis. And yeah, we can only hope the approach adopted by the UK government, one lagging behind most others in terms of social shut down and payment packages, will prove effective. Lives depend upon it.

Problem is you can't fight a virus with lies in the sides of buses, though...

This post has been edited by The Earl of Chesterfield: 21 March 2020 - 02:50 PM

[CFC91]

dtp, on 20 March 2020 - 08:19 PM, said:

Whatever one's politics, Chris, surely it has to be admitted that Boris's life at the top has got off to a very difficult start what with the floods and now corona virus. Being prepared to give daily updates etc brings over the seriousness of what we are now going through as a nation. Yes, they are firefighting but who wouldn't be?

That said, I've been quite impressed with how Rishi Sunak has gone about his business in very difficult and trying times the likes of which have not been previously seen in my lifetime.

For all our sakes let's hope that the measures being taken pull us through so that we can have a future to look forward to.

I agree, and I never thought I’d say that as someone who precious had voted Labour.

I was concerned by how the government would react to this, how small businesses, vulnerable people and the sick would be looked after but yesterday’s announcements and commitments may go down in years to come as a great government. Time will tell of course

I also think based on the speech by Rishi Sunak we have probably just seen our next PM make his first introduction into the public eye. For someone most people had never heard of 3 weeks ago, he speaks very well and doesn’t seem a bad story

I think more help with be provided to the self employed, but the moves the government have made are very costly, but are needed. I doh t we’d have seen anything more from a Labour government, in fact I wouldn’t have trusted Corbyn to deal with this at all.

I’m not for politicising this like some though as I have little interest in UK politics recently, and think those that are doing that are wrong. We’re all in this together, we should be working together and those who are sniping at the governments work rather than offering help and support will quickly find themselves on the wrong end of the public opinion.

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 21 March 2020 - 02:46 PM, said:

That'll be the same 'honest' Johnson who couldn't wait to get in front of the cameras during December's floods yet was hosting Tory party fundraisers - where those who conveniently avoided austerity paid fifty grand a go to play tennis with him - rather than get wet more recently (he had to be forced into the daily updates, too).

As for Sunak, the bloke who leapt enthusiastically forward in true Corporal Jones style when his predecessor demonstrated rare integrity by quitting rather than bow to Cummins' dictat, I wonder how many times he's accused the Gordon Brown government of 'bankrupting the country' despite taking similar measures when faced with a similar financial meltdown.

The hypocrisy doesn't end there, either. The experts who every government representative insists, mantra like, are guiding them are the same experts Johnson and his Vote Leave cronies have spent four years trashing. The immigrants currently performing heroics in an already understaffed NHS (nearly a hundred thousand short at the last count) are the same immigrants they've so often vilified. The doctors and nurses who yet again - YET AGAIN - go way beyond the call of duty are the same doctors and nurses denied burseries, wage rises and whose contracts the Tories wanted to tear up. The Boris Johnson who was a cheerleader for bailed out bankers now saying he won't 'repeat the mistake of giving money to them instead of everyone else'. The Tory MP claiming no deal preparations mean we're better positioned than EU countries on 'Five Live' yesterday.

Then there're increasing reports of front line staff lacking the necessary coveralls despite Johnson insisting they'd been stockpiled. Then there're increasing reports of front line staff being at home when a simple test could allow them to return. Then there're the millions of so called 'gig economy' workers who still - STILL - remain in the dark about their income.

I do agree that just like the worldwide economic crash of 2008 no one could've foreseen or properly prepared for the current crisis. And yeah, we can only hope the approach adopted by the UK government, one lagging behind most others in terms of social shut down and payment packages, will prove effective. Lives depend upon it.

Problem is you can't fight a virus with lies in the sides of buses, though...

Obviously, you have your own beliefs, Chris, and obviously the wonderful duo of Corbyn and MacDonald would have done far far better whilst, in reality, they couldn't earn the trust of their own lifetime voters. Then Brown, really, you don't believe he got it wrong but, in truth, have you actually heard Sunak accuse him of anything?

And, I must say, I can't remember any scientific or medical experts coming out strongly against the "vote leave" campaign - I voted to remain, by the way, but should I have been given a second vote I would have voted the same way as Jeremy has campaigned all his life - to leave.

I stand by what I said in my post and accept I included the words "whatever one's politics" but didn't want this to become a political argument. However, I am beginning to wonder if there is a different type of prejudice coming out here - that of politics??? I am not prejudice against race, colour, sex, religion or anything else you want to list but definately not "politics". In a short period of time some big decisions have had to be taken and since being voted into the hot seat I think some very good decisions have been made. Is it possible, for instance, that rather than have spent and spent after Brown left the coffers empty that a bit like the kiddies money box principal of putting a little aside for a rainy day we are now in the position to make the decisions which are now being taken? There will always be gaps to be filled but Piers Morgan style hysteria will not solve anything and the easiest thing in the world is to criticise but not necessarily so easy to do better if placed in the decision making seat oneself.

[SpireiteFitzy]

Benno Spire, on 20 March 2020 - 09:00 PM, said:

Just some info for the SSP argument.
I am aware of a workplace who employ 79 staff and up to 2 days ago told staff that if they went off sick they would only get SSP.Yesterday they were told they would get full pay if off sick. This morning 49 of their staff rang in sick.

There's a deadly virus going round and every professional related to it is telling people to hold up indoors. You wonder why people don't want to go to work?

Say this gets introduced during a regular spring with no deadly virus around, do 49 people decide to ring in sick the next day just to get a bit more money? Very unlikely.

[Spire-Power]

Not many want a return to 70s Labour policies. Corbyn running the country would have been as welcome as a dose of the clap. As a Labour voter I am pleased we are exiting Europe and the way Boris' team are dealing with matters so far.

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 21 March 2020 - 03:36 PM, said:

Obviously, you have your own beliefs, Chris, and obviously the wonderful duo of Corbyn and MacDonald would have done far far better whilst, in reality, they couldn't earn the trust of their own lifetime voters. Then Brown, really, you don't believe he got it wrong but, in truth, have you actually heard Sunak accuse him of anything?

And, I must say, I can't remember any scientific or medical experts coming out strongly against the "vote leave" campaign - I voted to remain, by the way, but should I have been given a second vote I would have voted the same way as Jeremy has campaigned all his life - to leave.

I stand by what I said in my post and accept I included the words "whatever one's politics" but didn't want this to become a political argument. However, I am beginning to wonder if there is a different type of prejudice coming out here - that of politics??? I am not prejudice against race, colour, sex, religion or anything else you want to list but definately not "politics". In a short period of time some big decisions have had to be taken and since being voted into the hot seat I think some very good decisions have been made. Is it possible, for instance, that rather than have spent and spent after Brown left the coffers empty that a bit like the kiddies money box principal of putting a little aside for a rainy day we are now in the position to make the decisions which are now being taken? There will always be gaps to be filled but Piers Morgan style hysteria will not solve anything and the easiest thing in the world is to criticise but not necessarily so easy to do better if placed in the decision making seat oneself.

Blimey - not bad for a bloke who 'didn't want this to become a political argument', Dave.

You speak of 'political prejudice' - so how do you explain your 'wonderful duo' reference to Corbyn and McDonald? Besides, we're discussing those who are in power, and I thought you didn't do hypothetical.

Or is that just confined to the circumstances under which you'll excuse Carson cronies.

Then are you saying Sunak is the only member of his party to never, ever condemn the last Labour government? For doing pretty much exactly what he's doing now? Yeah, just sit back, think about it, and realise how absurd that'd be.

'I can't remember any scientific or medical experts coming out strongly against the "vote leave"'?

Here y'go: https://www.mirror.c...cording-7692226

I think you'll have heard of a certain Steven Hawkings, too: https://www.ibtimes....-brexit-1548597

Or try this: https://www.politico...tors-migration/

Perhaps this: https://www.bbc.co.u...health-47646193

Next let's address your 'little aside for a rainy day' suggestion; so was there any 'rainy day' capacity in a grossly understaffed NHS with patients on trolleys and A&E depts overwhelmed long before CV19 appeared? Or had investment fallen well below that of other economies facing the same post 2008 scenario. I'm pretty sure you'll find every member of the current cabinet voted for those budgets, too. Oh, you might also explain why the Tories repeatedly trashed Labour's plans as 'bankrupting the country' at the last election only to deliver this: https://www.express....s-latest-update

Nah, sorry pal, but just as you can't pick and choose which CFC boardmembers you defend or distance yourself from, you can't on one hand say 'some big decisions have had to be taken and some very good decisions have been made' of the current chancellor before accusing the Brown he's quite clearly replicating of 'leaving the coffers empty'.

Or was that just 'Piers Morgan hysteria'...

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 21 March 2020 - 05:20 PM, said:

Blimey - not bad for a bloke who 'didn't want this to become a political argument', Dave.

You speak of 'political prejudice' - so how do you explain your 'wonderful duo' reference to Corbyn and McDonald? Besides, we're discussing those who are in power, and I thought you didn't do hypothetical.

Or is that just confined to the circumstances under which you'll excuse Carson cronies.

Then are you saying Sunak is the only member of his party to never, ever condemn the last Labour government? For doing pretty much exactly what he's doing now? Yeah, just sit back, think about it, and realise how absurd that'd be.

'I can't remember any scientific or medical experts coming out strongly against the "vote leave"'?

Here y'go: https://www.mirror.c...cording-7692226

I think you'll have heard of a certain Steven Hawkings, too: https://www.ibtimes....-brexit-1548597

Or try this: https://www.politico...tors-migration/

Perhaps this: https://www.bbc.co.u...health-47646193

Next let's address your 'little aside for a rainy day' suggestion; so was there any 'rainy day' capacity in a grossly understaffed NHS with patients on trolleys and A&E depts overwhelmed long before CV19 appeared? Or had investment fallen well below that of other economies facing the same post 2008 scenario. I'm pretty sure you'll find every member of the current cabinet voted for those budgets, too. Oh, you might also explain why the Tories repeatedly trashed Labour's plans as 'bankrupting the country' at the last election only to deliver this: https://www.express....s-latest-update

Nah, sorry pal, but just as you can't pick and choose which CFC boardmembers you defend or distance yourself from, you can't on one hand say 'some big decisions have had to be taken and some very good decisions have been made' of the current chancellor before accusing the Brown he's quite clearly replicating of 'leaving the coffers empty'.

Or was that just 'Piers Morgan hysteria'...

In my opinion you initiated the political point scoring in the way you answered my first post, Chris. I don't see any such attitude in my first post nor was any intended. I appreciate your research to support your arguments but neither can even you pick and choose, miss out or turn a blind eye to that which doesn't fit. I don't do that research, I post as I think and from memory.

This is not a time for playing political games. Whatever the various parties have done previously (no matter how many times you choose to drag up your own personal very strong opinions) whether we agree with them or not will not have a great deal of bearing on the current or future of our great country and the decisions now being taken to fight this horrible virus.

I appreciate what the government has done so far (and I am taking their starting point from when they won the last election) and accept that others will never think they have done enough. Whether or not their strategy proves right or wrong remains to be seen. Whether or not different politicians would have done better or worse is a subject of debate which will never be proveable or be seen.

[Spire-Power]

Whatever porkies Johnson told in his past isn't important to me. He may thrive on a sense of responsibility now, grow into the role and become a very good PM for many years to come. Or not, we will see.

[azul]

Spire-Power, on 21 March 2020 - 06:45 PM, said:

Whatever porkies Johnson told in his past isn't important to me. He may thrive on a sense of responsibility now, grow into the role and become a very good PM for many years to come. Or not, we will see.

😂

[The Earl of Chesterfield]

dtp, on 21 March 2020 - 06:03 PM, said:

In my opinion you initiated the political point scoring in the way you answered my first post, Chris. I don't see any such attitude in my first post nor was any intended. I appreciate your research to support your arguments but neither can even you pick and choose, miss out or turn a blind eye to that which doesn't fit. I don't do that research, I post as I think and from memory.

This is not a time for playing political games. Whatever the various parties have done previously (no matter how many times you choose to drag up your own personal very strong opinions) whether we agree with them or not will not have a great deal of bearing on the current or future of our great country and the decisions now being taken to fight this horrible virus.

I appreciate what the government has done so far (and I am taking their starting point from when they won the last election) and accept that others will never think they have done enough. Whether or not their strategy proves right or wrong remains to be seen. Whether or not different politicians would have done better or worse is a subject of debate which will never be proveable or be seen.

Come on Dave, don't accuse me of 'political pointscoring' when you've posted a plethora of political opinions yourself.

Or play the victim 'cos you can't account for your double standards regarding Sunak and Brown.

And I see you apply the same arbitrary criteria to the current government as you do to Carson's cronies. So everything Johnson's mob did and said and voted for before last December became suddenly null and void? It has no bearing whatsoever on what we're seeing today? On infrastructure they themselves admit is billions short?

By the way, my 'research' took the grand total of two or three minutes on 'Google', too.

I think me, thee and everyone else wants the same thing, pal - the speediest possible return to normality with the fewest possible deaths. At which point I'll happily applaud whoever's in Number Ten if they deliver it.

But if not? If concerns over testing, supplying front line staff with gear and lagging behind most other countries' shut downs prove unfortunately legitimate?

I hope you'll acknowledge the last election wasn't some 'year zero' and apportion blame accordingly...

[isleaiw1]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 20 March 2020 - 08:37 AM, said:

That's a very Victorian attitude, Ian. Infact I can picture some bloated mill owner declaring 'If we offer enhanced benefits to the lower classes it'll just make them lazy and workshy' back then.

And it's not political pointscoring to demand the government stand by their own pledges. Health and wealth are inextricably linked, none more so than during the current crisis. Scenario one: bloke wakes up with CV19 symptoms, decides ninety-odd quid won't even pay his rent, so goes out and spread the virus. Scenario two: bloke wakes up with CV19 symptoms, decides he can just about manage on the temporarily boosted benefits so isolates helping to stop the disease.

Same applies to employees of Barnet FC, CFC, or any other business in Britain...

Well they seem to have solved the problem by paying 80% of everyone’s wages when they are at home due to threat to their jobs. And most of the essential services are paying staff for the full 14 day isolation period.

By the way, apparently 30% of teachers were off last week. We had 1% of our staff claiming covid was reason for their absence. All staff are temp checked on arrival so we can tell if they are coming in ill.

[dtp]

The Earl of Chesterfield, on 21 March 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

Come on Dave, don't accuse me of 'political pointscoring' when you've posted a plethora of political opinions yourself.

Or play the victim 'cos you can't account for your double standards regarding Sunak and Brown.

And I see you apply the same arbitrary criteria to the current government as you do to Carson's cronies. So everything Johnson's mob did and said and voted for before last December became suddenly null and void? It has no bearing whatsoever on what we're seeing today? On infrastructure they themselves admit is billions short?

By the way, my 'research' took the grand total of two or three minutes on 'Google', too.

I think me, thee and everyone else wants the same thing, pal - the speediest possible return to normality with the fewest possible deaths. At which point I'll happily applaud whoever's in Number Ten if they deliver it.

But if not? If concerns over testing, supplying front line staff with gear and lagging behind most other countries' shut downs prove unfortunately legitimate?

I hope you'll acknowledge the last election wasn't some 'year zero' and apportion blame accordingly...

We obviously have to wait and see whether or not our current government's decisions based on the opinions of our current medical and scientific experts recommendations along with matters discussed by those that attend COBRA meetings are the correct ones. Some of the actions being taken in other countries may be different including those of some of our European friends but let's hope that "we" have got it as right as possible and people don't continue to ignore the advices given as witnessed in places like Skegness and Brighton etc today. If people continue to ignore the advice given by the experts then it will be no use blaming others for their own actions.

I agree, me, thee and everyone else want the same thing but I do wonder about the actions of what seems to be quite a number of selfish individuals when it comes to defying advice given, panic buying, etc. Whose side are they on?

When it comes to governments, Chris, I have a habit of taking each one as it comes because each one is different. Labour have had leaders like Wilson, Foot, Blair and Corbyn and I consider each of those did, or could have, led a different type of government. So I have no allegiance to any particular party. I judge each one as I think it has performed and vote for who I consider to be the best option at the time. No party is guaranteed my vote as I think that is too presumptuous. I've voted for all three main parties in the past based on my own opinion as to who is worthy of my vote at the time. Boris is not exactly my cup of tea but I see him as a different type to either May or Cameron and that is why his starting position for me is from when he won the election. If he does well he'll get my vote next time, if he doesn't my vote goes elsewhere depending on their policies. Anyway, for all his bluster let's hope, for all our sakes, he "gets it done" successfully.

This post has been edited by dtp: 21 March 2020 - 08:25 PM

[isleaiw1]

azul, on 20 March 2020 - 09:11 PM, said:

De Pfaffel is being dragged along by events, reluctant to make hard decisions and is continually behind the curve.

In all fairness, Sunak is at least a clear and concise communicator

That is complete crap. He has 66m peoples health, an economy and everything else to deal with. I would say him and his advisors are doing much better than expected. But then I am not died red throughout and judge all politicians on their performance.